Translation of the end of TTC chapter 1

[Gerry]

I have a technical question about the translations of the end of chapter #1. It is the translation of “darkness”, “profound”, Mysteries”, “Darker than any Mystery”, “ pairing is deepest”

 

Can someone relate these translations to the original chinese characters and their literal meanings?  I am trying to relate "darkness" to the other language choices.

 

Mitchell

This source is called darkness. Darkness within darkness.
The gateway to all understanding.

 

Hendrick

That which is even more profound that the profound—
The gateway of all subtleties.

 

English

Darkness within darkness.
The gate to all mystery.

 

Cleary

The mystery of mysteries is the gateway of marvels.

 

Leddge

Together we call them
the Mystery. Where the Mystery is the deepest is the gate of all that
is subtle and wonderful.

 

Waley

This “same mould” we can but call the Mystery,
Or rather the “Darker than any Mystery”,
The Doorway whence issued all Secret Essences.

 

Lin Yutang

They may both be called the Cosmic Mystery:
Reaching from the Mystery into the Deeper Mystery
Is the Gate to the Secret of All Life.

 

Derek Lin

These two emerge together but differ in name
The unity is said to be the mystery
Mystery of mysteries, the door to all wonders
 

Blakney

These two come paired but distinct
By their names.
Of all things profound,
Say that their pairing is deepest,
The gate to the root of the world.

[Marblehead]

I can't answer your question but I personally prefer mystery over darkness.

 

There was a discussion a while back that spoke to this but I can't remember where or even when it was.

 

I will be watching this as it would be interesting to read others' opinions/understandings.

[Gerry]

I can't answer your question but I personally prefer mystery over darkness.

 

There was a discussion a while back that spoke to this but I can't remember where or even when it was.

 

I will be watching this as it would be interesting to read others' opinions/understandings.

Darkness = mystery ???  Mostly why I asked. 

 

  Darkness shows up so often there must be a reason.  I thought it might be a form of "unknowable truth" or "unseeing-able".  There is also a notion of the pairing that must be a part of the "story", so I hope someone with Chinese language skill and/or a better library of interpretations can help me.

 

What I would like is a version of the TTC that shows the original Chinese with very literal English translation of each character.

[dust]

Imagine the void.

 

It is black, or dark, or... somehow entirely without colour or form.

 

It is vast beyond understanding. Deep, or boundless.

 

In all senses -- without colour, without form, without limit -- it is unimaginable. A mystery. Profound in the sense that it contains all, though it is no thing.

 

The trouble, I think, is that xuan means all of the things as translated above. And that's kind of the point, too -- it's hard to define, like dao is.

Edited March 30, 2017 by dust

[Mig]

Don't this term is related to other xuan or xuan de, xuan pin terms in other chapters? I think someone here raised the question why not origin or beginning, if I remember correctly. R. Ames, translates as obscure.

[Gerry]

Imagine the void.

 

It is black, or dark, or... somehow entirely without colour or form.

 

It is vast beyond understanding. Deep, or boundless.

 

In all senses -- without colour, without form, without limit -- it is unimaginable. A mystery. Profound in the sense that it contains all, though it is no thing.

  I take it it

The trouble, I think, is that xuan means all of the things as translated above. And that's kind of the point, too -- it's hard to define, like dao is.

I can see that, but I guess my question is what actually was stated in the original TTC Chinese.     I take it xuan is that word, character.

[Taoist Texts]

I can see that, but I guess my question is what actually was stated in the original TTC Chinese.     I take it xuan is that word, character.

Good question

 

 Taoism lifts us up to a level above particular gods and ancestors, to a heaven above heaven, to the one universal principle that allows the world to find unity in its endless diversity.  

/Taoism and the Arts of China/

 

Thats what this character is - the heaven above heaven 玄.

 

 

or...There are Heavens beyond the Heavens (天外有天tiān wài yǒu tiān)

Edited March 31, 2017 by Taoist Texts

[Mig]

check this out and let me know your thoughts:

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=NUgyAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA149&lpg=PA149&dq=xuan+in+taoism&source=bl&ots=QEHDMmKPTz&sig=xE-nqYkTCc50si9aseM1mql0E9E&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj9ldvU7f_SAhXDx1QKHba8D4s4ChDoAQhDMAw#v=onepage&q=xuan%20in%20taoism&f=false

[dust]

I can see that, but I guess my question is what actually was stated in the original TTC Chinese.     I take it xuan is that word, character.

 

Yes. As Taoist Texts says. 玄. And the character, today at least, means various things, as stated.

 

Although...

 

 

 

Good question

 

 

Thats what this character is - the heaven above heaven 玄.

 

 

 

This version is interesting, though looks more like 宫 than 玄 to me.. and I'm not sure how it came about from either of them..? The 金文 玄 seems to have been a near-pictogram of a bow, rather than 'heaven above heaven'

 

Got any further sources?

Edited March 31, 2017 by dust

[Taoist Texts]

This version is interesting, though looks more like 宫 than 玄 to me.. and I'm not sure how it came about from either of them..? The 金文 玄 seems to have been a near-pictogram of a bow, rather than 'heaven above heaven' Got any further sources?

 

Thats true a couple of ancient variants do look like bows and strings, but some of them look anything but

http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?submitButton1=Etymology&characterInput=%E7%8E%84

 

 

《太玄经 - Tai Xuan Jing》 [Eastern Han] 33 BC-18 Yang Xiong

 

玄者、神之魁也。天以不见为玄，地以不形为玄，人以心腹为玄。

 

Xuan is the ringleader of the spirits. In heaven, what is invisible that is xuan, in earth what is shapeless - that is xuan, in humans - their heart and guts are xuan.

Edited March 31, 2017 by Taoist Texts

[dust]

Yeah..some weird variation. So it is often similar to 宫 and 吕 / 呂 and 心 and probably some others I'm not registering.. huh...

[Taoist Texts]

 and 心  

damn! thank you ! (forehead slap)

 

thats what it was, heart and guts. and i stared at it  thinking  "this looks familiar..."

 

 

[Gerry]

Good question

 

 

Thats what this character is - the heaven above heaven 玄.

 

 

or...There are Heavens beyond the Heavens (天外有天tiān wài yǒu tiān)

So...  Is this what leads to translations of "darkness"  or "Mystery"  in those closing lines of chapter 1?

[dust]

Apologies for not being clearer.
 

but I guess my question is what actually was stated in the original TTC Chinese.     I take it xuan is that word, character.

 
Yes, that was my point. There is a character, 玄 xuan, that essentially means all of those things.
 
 
常無欲，以觀其妙
 
ever without 'yu' (desire), to see its 'miao' (mystery/subtle/wonderful/clever)
 
常有欲，以觀其徼
 
ever with 'yu' (desire), to see its 'jiao' (boundary/manifestation/outer aspect)
 
此兩者，同出而異名，同謂之玄
 
these 2, together/same come out but different name, together/same called 'xuan' (deep/dark/formless/mystery/profound...)
 
玄之又玄，衆妙之門
 
'xuan' and again 'xuan', gate/door of all/multitude 'miao' (mystery/subtle...)

Edited March 31, 2017 by dust

[Wu Ming Jen]

The cavity of the Mysterious Gate is the most important gate in the body. The cavity is the mind within the mind. Its not made of flesh and blood, yet its the spirit that directs everything in us. The spirit dwells inside a substantive form. It is there, and yet not there.

 

Darkness is female not a negative or void it gives life ,the gate way to all mysteries. This must be paired with the light of awareness well beyond self or ego. If any sense of self is present the gate vanishes or never appears.

 

​

[dawei]

Don't this term is related to other xuan or xuan de, xuan pin terms in other chapters? I think someone here raised the question why not origin or beginning, if I remember correctly. R. Ames, translates as obscure.

 

Yes, it relates to those other chapters too and one can come to a similar conclusion of a kind of stable state or 'secret' (as in arcane or mysterious) state. 

 

I'm one who likes 'primal' as a core meaning.

 

So...  Is this what leads to translations of "darkness"  or "Mystery"  in those closing lines of chapter 1?

 

In ancient times, it was used as a color regarding birds, clothes or the sky.   The Yi JIng said, 'Heaven is Xuan (dark) and Earth is Huang (yellow).

 

I like how Dust translates as, together/same called 'xuan'.    This should draw one back to the idea of a stable state of oneness where Yin and Yang have not separated... and yet also describes Wu and You, the separated state of non-manifest and manifest as really sameness.  Echoes of, Void = Form.

[Marblehead]

... the separated state of non-manifest and manifest as really sameness.  

Or at least of the same source.

[dawei]

 the separated state of non-manifest and manifest as really sameness.  

 

Or at least of the same source.

 

This is the subtlety of it... being of the same source still echos 'separation'.   Being really sameness echos 'singularity'.

 

That is why I prefer primal/primordial; the state when two are One. 

 

I recall reading someone describing it as the moment between Yin and Yang; not-Yin and not-Yang, yet both.

 

Consider the moment you are about to fall asleep; not-awake and not-asleep; yet both.   Your thoughts are on neither, yet both are one in that moment.

[Marblehead]

Yeah, I admit that I have this thing about "separation" vs "singularity".  I have no ego in singularity.  In fact, I don't even exist in singularity.  But yes, "both" is a valid concept.  I just haven't adopted it yet.

[Taoist Texts]

 

In ancient times, it was used as a color regarding birds, clothes or the sky.   The Yi JIng said, 'Heaven is Xuan (dark) and Earth is Huang (yellow). 

Great. So its the color of heaven

Shuowen says 

玄：幽远也。黑而有赤色者为玄。

black with some red undertone is xuan

Edited April 2, 2017 by Taoist Texts

[Mig]

Darkness = mystery ???  Mostly why I asked. 

 

  Darkness shows up so often there must be a reason.  I thought it might be a form of "unknowable truth" or "unseeing-able".  There is also a notion of the pairing that must be a part of the "story", so I hope someone with Chinese language skill and/or a better library of interpretations can help me.

 

What I would like is a version of the TTC that shows the original Chinese with very literal English translation of each character.

I just found this: xuan: dark->profound and mysterious. Dark leads to the far depth of the ultimate truth from which life exhudes has definitely a sexual connotation as well as a cosmic significance.qa

Charles Q. Wu. Thus spoke Laozi

[Marblehead]

Be careful of staring into the darkness of the abyss though; it may start staring back at you.  (And that will cause most to feel naked and afraid.)

[Mig]

Be careful of staring into the darkness of the abyss though; it may start staring back at you.  (And that will cause most to feel naked and afraid.)

Talking about darkness, I guess we are the only species that can not see in the darkness. Maybe a cat or other animal that can see in the dark can tell us.

[Marblehead]

Apparently you have been there.  Me too.

[Mig]

So what's the result of the last line? Miao as subtley, wonder, essence?