Rocky Lionmouth Posted March 31, 2017 Hi! I hope ir's cool to name and discuss a running tv-show like this hut i wanted to get the opinion of my fellow Bums on this so here goes. New superhero show, magic kung fu and qi gong content, secret societies with skillful warriors, all good and nice. I havent read the comic, just saw the show because i had hopes for some martial arts storytelling in a modern day setting. I've since read quite a few articles on the obvious issues regarding representation and all sorts of stuff which are of course valid. I've read people are dissapointed with the characters but i've found them complex enough to enjoy for my kung fu show standards: secrets are motivated, main characters have human flaws and they're portrayed as dealing with them in good and bad ways and yada yada yada. I've enjoyed worse written and performed oldschool kung fu movies more than this. But the kung fu and qi gong is abysmal and inconsistent. There's a lot of talent in the show and it completely amazes me that the main character is a mythological level inheritor of a martial tradition since 15 years and it just looks like crap on screen. Martial talent is abundant in the show as well, they're all coreographed to look bad and everyone is adapting their skill to match the main actors lack thereof. I'm not barking on actor performance, i'm just dissapointed that whoever writes and organizes the show has put nowhere near enough effort to make the martial arts look good. If it's a huge part of the show then invest in the necessary hours to prep your crew. I read the main actor Jones had about 15 minutes to learn a full coreography befor they shot a fight scene and it really shows. I cant let it go, since it's a bloody martial arts experts themed story! Posture is horrible, limbs are all over the place in forms and fighting, the timing and portrayal of whatever it is supposed to be a blend of (there's some drunken monkey, some classic shaolin long fist, some hung kuen and tai chi in the mix) but it all a soup lacking definition and chracter. It looks what a bogus yoga instructor would pass off as homebrewed tai chi karate kung fu fighting in a watered down wannabe jeet kun do fashion. They get it credible enough in one scene out of 20. Maybe this is just my own dissapointment talking but it really bugs me because it would improve the overall quality of the show if the martial arts stuff was at least at half the level of the interpersonal acting... 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silent thunder Posted March 31, 2017 I loved the Iron Fist character and storyline. The show is passable but weak in my opinion. Marvel Studios... currently stationed in a brand new complex out of Atlanta Georgia, is going to churn out as much material as they can, while keeping costs low, particularly on tv series. Several of my friends are there for the next three years straight working on the slew of upcoming Marvel content they are churning out. I was offered a position, but refused it, as I don't want to relocate my family, or work away from them either. The amount of time it takes to stage high quality fights is not conducive to a television series budget... and often limited by the abilities of the available talent. The amount of time to film, vs prep and construct all the elements in a tv show is much harsher than in feature films. So basically, they have not devoted the resources to the fighting choreography for the tv series that they may for a feature film. hope this helps. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dust Posted March 31, 2017 (edited) Yeah... I enjoyed it, but agree with your points. I think the critics and viewers complaining about 'pacing' and lack of FX etc need to get a grip on reality. None of the other Netflix-Marvel shows have been faster paced or more FX-heavy or with much better acting. Jessica Jones was incredibly boring. And ALL of these shows' characters are persistently annoying in their refusal to just kill the fucking bad guys. They kill and maim dozens of faceless henchmen throughout the season, every episode, then when they finally get to the main baddie, it's "Oh don't do it you're better than that & it'll make you sad". For fuck's sake. Just kill them. That's why I always loved Wolverine. However, specific to Iron Fist... yeah, there was always a little noise in the back of my head wondering if Jones was the right choice. Even as someone who doesn't know very much about real traditional Chinese martial arts forms, the scenes where he practiced forms did bug me. Especially when he was next to another -- Colleen, Bakuto -- a lack of strictness/similarity in form was apparent. And yes the fights were instantly forgettable. When compared to Daredevil, with some brutal long-shot fight scenes, it's really not good. And... this is an issue with the original comic I guess, but... the backstory is a little too similar to that of Batman (and Green Arrow). Rich kid, parents die, learns to fight in Asia, comes back.. and I expect he'll also have a conflict with his shifu at some point. It does annoy me when Marvel or DC steal entire character histories from each other. But the main complaints people have don't seem to be along these lines. Look at this: http://www.vox.com/culture/2017/3/15/14919546/iron-first-marvel-reviews-finn-jones "The biggest problem with Iron Fist is that no one thought about what makes the character human" Nope. The biggest problem is the relative lack of decent fighting. Yes, the fighting should be the most important aspect... and most people wouldn't know a decent fight scene if it punched them in the face. Still... Colleen, Joy, Claire... always something nice to look at... Edited March 31, 2017 by dust 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silent thunder Posted March 31, 2017 My son, 11, routinely says when we turn something on... "why is it always so predictable?..." I did make it through Iron Fist and Marco Polo recently.... but just barely. Other than that, I don't remember the last tv show I saw... they just don't have any gravity for me any longer. Nothing to draw me in. These days when I'm looking for something to watch that might engage me, I check out the Enlightened Movies thread here and give that a try... there have been many gems there. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Seatle185 Posted March 31, 2017 Haha funny, i had just seen some of this and the story kind of pulled me in and got me excited about a good kung fu series maybe.. but every single time the iron fist fights or does his "forms" its insufferable to watch it really is.. the first fight with the security guards was hilarious, probobly worst choreographed fight iv ever seen, even worse than some of the movies with scenes making fun of kung fu. Every time he does his forms he has his ass sticking out as far as it will go.. i really didnt know what to make of it... but see i had high hopes because "daredevil" which is also a netflix + marvel series had amazing fight scenes with ninjas haha. I figured theyd at least be somewhat similar.. it seems like the writers didnt do their research on this one but i dont know... like i said the story at first seemed like it had good potential but after a while it just seemed like it was put together really sloppy... just my opinion 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silent thunder Posted April 1, 2017 I can hardly watch the lad who portrays Iron Fist when he's 'recharging his qi'... it's cringe worthy indeed. Tom Wu, on the other hand, is rather stunning when he moves. Obviously gifted and dedicated, he is the actor who portrays the character Hundred Eyes, (a blind Taoist warrior monk of the Wu Dang sword tradition in the Marco Polo series). He moves with subtlety and grace. I did a brief search and Tom won two bronze and a gold medal representing Britain in a Chinese International Wu Shu competition back in 1988. It shows. He also has a relationship with Michelle Yeow (or Michelle 'Kick Ass' Yum as I always think of her...) that complicates things nicely late in the season. Man she I dig her. If you haven't seen it, there is a tasty 30 minute short stand alone episode of Marco Polo: One Hundred Eyes: which gives the back story of how the Taoist monk Li Jinbao comes to be in service to the Kahn. I dug it. I watched it after it popped up one night while randomly googling 'taoist assassin monks' for fun. That got me to watch the series. That character is the sauce and Wu portrays the hell out of him. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Seatle185 Posted April 1, 2017 Oh man i agree with you silent thunder about tom wu, in fact hundred eyes was the only reason i kept watching marco polo, sometimes id just skip until i saw scenes of him haha.. and i enjoyed his back story, was actually suprised the writer did well on that one. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rocky Lionmouth Posted April 1, 2017 Thanks peeps for this! For sure: Hundred Eyes is the obvious big boss, i couldnt get through Marco Polos second episode, but i go bled up the Hundred Eyes special and watched it again a week later because it was captivating. ST you make a very good point about the economics involved in tv-shows vis a vis spending time to optimize the details. Dust: yes. Oh dear me yes, please just kill the bastard and be done with it. Wolverine has his spanners in the works also but it's almost always entertaining to see/read! Most definetly the story is following a certain script. It's almost as if the gazillionaire orphan with legendary martial skills is a convenient way to establish a no-loose-ends violent but lovable character AND kill off the "yeah but how did s/he get that gizmo or technique?" "Shut up, here's what: unlimited cash resource and ninja training, satisfied?!" Seattle: right? Right? Jones sticking his ass out like that, why?! It takes one quick google and 15 minutes to find out how it ought to look halfway decent. Not that i'm saying Jones derrier isnt fine, but it just looks horrible. Sure, for a trained eye even proper Shaw stuff looks weird and full of errors but it's cinema. It's easy to let a crappy stance or follow up slide when the overall illusion doesnt rest on thin ice. And i have to say that high level fight stuff doesn't make the monk. Quick example: Donnie Yen and Michelle Yeoh got brutal chops and make it look good and easy, but some productions they're in just lack storywise while others that are remarkably cheesy just work anyway. For Donnie "14 blades" is a flop, no matter how awesome it is to watch him take out baddies by spitting chicken at them. Michelles role in "True Legend" is kickass, even if it's a great flick the sheer amount of cheese-melt is annoying. Michelle and Gordon Liu make for interesting turns, have badass skills and costumes that look really comfy Iron Fist has displayed a huge hole and some of the worst kung fu i've seen lately. To find a silver lining or two: there is room for much improvement and it's weirdly encouraging to see what is passable tv does a lot worse than some first year martial arts students. Gives hope for the future. I'm saying that with a complete lack of irony and sarcasm btw. Onward forward, upward ever! So, the hunt for a decent or good KF show is on. I'll wash my eyes with some old Shaw or Jackie scenes. Almost all portrayals of Beggar So are dope also. Drunken fist for the win! 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
C T Posted April 1, 2017 He also has a relationship with Michelle Yeow (or Michelle 'Kick Ass' Yum as I always think of her...) that complicates things nicely late in the season. Man she I dig her. Michelle was one of my childhood friends actually. Even back then she had a charm and ability to hush the boys, who happily enough were quite satisfied with taking a chatter respite to simply gawk whenever she showed up. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silent thunder Posted April 1, 2017 Michelle was one of my childhood friends actually. Even back then she had a charm and ability to hush the boys, who happily enough were quite satisfied with taking a chatter respite to simply gawk whenever she showed up. Yea, I bet she's got a magnetic presence. I was a stage actor for years and much like in cultivation there are myriad techniques you can study in acting, with the body and voice to affect influence and manage attention... but on the level above that, is being capable of commanding and holding space with no technique other than presence... that can't be taught. It's energetic... either there, or not. Hard to describe, but always know it when seeing it. It didn't matter what is said, or how they moved or if they sat still and silent... it's always... full, engaging. These masters who can fill even the tiniest role and the flimsiest writing with vital spirit that is inevitably compelling to watch. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gendao Posted April 1, 2017 My son, 11, routinely says when we turn something on... "why is it always so predictable?..." Lol, well HollyWEIRD...sure likes to stick to their scripts! Some things just never change... Next?! 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted April 1, 2017 This is on my 'to watch list'... my son said to watch this before, "Into the Badlands" series to appreciate both. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dust Posted April 1, 2017 Some things just never change... Next?! Yes, the trend is very annoying. I had not expected something as blatant as that Matt Damon vehicle, so similar to and so soon after the Tom Cruise one. To be fair to the Iron Fist TV show, the original comic had the Iron Fist as a blond white guy in the '70s, only a couple of years after the TV show Kung Fu came out. So they're only sticking to the script, as it were. Some are calling it 'whitewashing', but I don't think you can whitewash something that was already whitewashed. Actually I think it could have been seen as somewhat racist to cast an 'Asian' guy in the role simply because it centres around kung fu... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dust Posted April 1, 2017 Oh.. speaking of One Hundred Eyes (good, but wayyy too short..) what's up with the upside-down fire 火 character thing? Is that a real thing in some traditions? (The only character I've heard of being turned over is fu 福) 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rocky Lionmouth Posted April 1, 2017 Some article mentioned "white savior" trope, highly relevant in a lot of these things methinks, paleface turns up and kicks ass or gains hi-level priviledges so fast it makes no sense. Last samurai for instance. I guess it could be offensive if it had to cast an "asian" in a move to be non-offensive. Imo the issues lie in the original script and character: Danny Rand is a childish and sometimes condescending prick even though he's a decent person mostly. As entertainment it's pretty cheap. One thing i did notice is that most people of color turn out to be badguys one way or the other, that could have been easily avoided. Now Hundred Eyes should have been it's own series, way too short indeed! I'd be happy if it was just a "villain of the week" show, it'd still rock 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silent thunder Posted April 1, 2017 Oh.. speaking of One Hundred Eyes (good, but wayyy too short..) what's up with the upside-down fire 火 character thing? Is that a real thing in some traditions? (The only character I've heard of being turned over is fu 福) To me it triggered an allusion to the alchemical process... heart fire descends, kidney water rises, through the action of the Yi of spleen. Though I have no idea what the writers actually intended... it was an awesome small unexplained detail. I really appreciate details like that in stories, that don't get overtly explained, they provide a framework of complexity and mystery that draws the observer in, or at least they draw me in... As in life, there are many things that come with no explanation (nature takes no pains to explain herself, it is up to us to engage) whatsoever and we come away with what arises for us... or nothing at all. I recall an interview with Mick Jagger back in the mid 70's, when it had become popular to put the lyrics in the album jackets... the interviewer asked him "Why don't you add your lyrics like other bands do?" Mick's reply revealed a savvy I hadn't expected from him... "oh no mate... I don wanna do that... whatever you fill in for yourself will be much better, much more personal than anything from my life... you'll custom fit it to yourself... that's what I want." 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralis Posted April 1, 2017 This is on my 'to watch list'... my son said to watch this before, "Into the Badlands" series to appreciate both. Watched the second season first episode of 'Into The Badlands' and there was more blood being spilled than both 'Kill Bill' movies. The Widow skewers anyone in her way with expert sword mastery. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted April 1, 2017 Loved Daredevil, the first season more then the second. Liked Jessica Jones, found Luke Cage slow, but redeemed by the nurse. I enjoyed the original comic books but find the Iron Fist predictable and at times boring enough so that I fast forwarded it, the first time I'm watching it. His character feels inconsistent, more whiny then heroic. The Hand isn't what it used to be, now its more like teenage wannabees instead of a mystical deadly assassin group. Even the enemy Madam Gau seems more grandmotherly with good advice and less a villain. There's another largely unmentioned Marvel show going on. Legion, not on Netflix. About an ultra powerful mutant (yes, they use that name) who's spent most of his life locked up in mental wards due to supposed insanity. He's broken out, and for most of the series is dealing with inner demons, while being 'earth-breaker' dangerous. It's uneven, mostly good, watchable but at times gets lost in tangents and artsyness. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dust Posted April 1, 2017 (edited) To me it triggered an allusion to the alchemical process... heart fire descends, kidney water rises, through the action of the Yi of spleen. Though I have no idea what the writers actually intended... it was an awesome small unexplained detail. I really appreciate details like that in stories, that don't get overtly explained, they provide a framework of complexity and mystery that draws the observer in, or at least they draw me in... As in life, there are many things that come with no explanation (nature takes no pains to explain herself, it is up to us to engage) whatsoever and we come away with what arises for us... or nothing at all. Yeah. Certainly it seems like something they made up to add an element (pun intended) to the story, and it's kind of cool (I like the way the character looks right side up but also makes a cool symbol upside down) but if it turned out to be a real practice from some tradition or another that'd also be interesting... Edited April 1, 2017 by dust 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gendao Posted April 1, 2017 (edited) Yes, the trend is very annoying. I had not expected something as blatant as that Matt Damon vehicle, so similar to and so soon after the Tom Cruise one. To be fair to the Iron Fist TV show, the original comic had the Iron Fist as a blond white guy in the '70s, only a couple of years after the TV show Kung Fu came out. So they're only sticking to the script, as it were. Some are calling it 'whitewashing', but I don't think you can whitewash something that was already whitewashed. Actually I think it could have been seen as somewhat racist to cast an 'Asian' guy in the role simply because it centres around kung fu... Right, because HollyWEIRD is all about historical accuracy when race cast(e)ing: HollyWEIRD would never cast an actor of an entirely different race than his character's! FFS, what's next...Black Vikings??? Yep, just fuhgeddaboudit! No anti-Asian colonialist racism here - just "HISTORICAL ACCURACY!" Nothing to see here, folks - please just buy your tickets, popcorn, and keep it moving! WE MUST KEEP STICKING TO THE SCRIPT, OY VEY!!! 2) Why do you think Hollywood refused the proposal to make a movie? "Hollywood did not refuse; I did. The book was deemed to be un-cinematographic (in other words, of insufficient interest for the broad public); the scene that produced the most interest was the battle of Pai Lok Nen with Lim. As a consequence, they wanted to rewrite the whole thing, with scenes of me flying through the air à la Crouching Tiger and battling the evil Maoshanpai dudes who had come to prevent the white apprentice from ascending to the Jedi council halleluiah. So I ditched the option." - Kosta "Danaos" Dervenis “This is just a fictional story about a white guy who masters Kung Fu and gets the Chinese woman.” – ridgepoor Edited April 1, 2017 by gendao 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dust Posted April 1, 2017 (edited) I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. That Hollywood is racist to cast black actors for originally white characters? Or that they will interchange black and white but not white and yellow? Or..? The one from your examples which might be considered historically inaccurate, Heimdall, is not, really. Marvel's Thor is an alternate imagining of the god, and of the Norse gods in general. It's not supposed to be historically accurate. Elba as Heimdall is a bit weird, but...whatever, really. He's an enjoyable actor to watch. There would have been some characters that, had they been cast in a different skin colour, I would have objected. Luke Cage, obviously, as the first black comicbook hero, must remain black -- it is one of his defining characteristics. Superman, Batman, Wolverine... they are embedded in public consciousness, and my own, as men with white skin, and I hope they remain so. But minor characters... meh. Human Torch? Makes more sense if brother and sister are the same colour, I guess, but whatever. If they make certain characters black, or gay, or vegan, or whatever, it really just evens things out a little. Edited April 1, 2017 by dust Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gendao Posted April 1, 2017 (edited) Or that they will interchange black and white but not white and yellow? Exactly. Liberal HollyWEIRD has a penchant for both Whitewashing Asian characters and Blackwashing White characters - so accuracy is obviously not a concern of theirs. And never was. Because if it was, then you wouldn't have so many Blackwashed superheroes now. And there'd be no reason you couldn't Yellowwash a White character (like Iron Fist). But underneath, it's more about dictating and inciting caste warfare - hence one of its major propaganda functions is "central casting." And both this comic book and movie are just another standard issue iteration of all that... Look, keep in mind that HollyWEIRD is not simply "entertainment, but really about mass hypnotic spell casting... After all, have you ever thought about why it was even named HOLLY WOOD??? Edited April 2, 2017 by gendao 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dust Posted April 1, 2017 Hmm. Well, the story of how the name came to be does sound a little made up (Chinese labourer asked what he's doing, he says "I holly wood" [i'm hauling wood]"). Fucking inspirational. It has been apparent to me for a long time that Hollywood, as diverse as it claims to be, will generally cast white actors in the main roles (and usually male roles), and blacks as sidekicks or secondary characters. Then comes Asian, then whatever else. I just watched the last episode of Grimm, and it's a perfect example. White lead, black detective partner, Asian uniform cop as a third. Then again.. shouldn't we expect there to be a sensible ratio? There aren't many Asians in the US, are there? (relative to others) 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silent thunder Posted April 1, 2017 (edited) Black Panther debuted in 1966, Luke Cage in the early 70's. Comics have had a history of addressing some social issues and getting away with it, due to their 'childish' nature. Something they have in common with Twilight Zone and Star Trek... both of those shows regularly wrestled and presented intense social issues of the day, but it was palatable to the censors due to the 'freaky' and 'alien' settings... just enough comfortable distance to pass their scent test. I was glad Green Lantern when he finally came out not so long ago... and I loved it when Superman renounced his American citizenship saying, I don't represent one nation. Makes sense, why he'd not perceive any one nation as his home, being an alien. in the end... it's all about a good story, told well. if you got those, I'm likely going to stick around and ask if there's any more coming soon. Edited April 1, 2017 by silent thunder 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gendao Posted April 1, 2017 Hmm. Well, the story of how the name came to be does sound a little made up (Chinese labourer asked what he's doing, he says "I holly wood" [i'm hauling wood]"). Fucking inspirational. It has been apparent to me for a long time that Hollywood, as diverse as it claims to be, will generally cast white actors in the main roles (and usually male roles), and blacks as sidekicks or secondary characters. Then comes Asian, then whatever else. I just watched the last episode of Grimm, and it's a perfect example. White lead, black detective partner, Asian uniform cop as a third. Then again.. shouldn't we expect there to be a sensible ratio? There aren't many Asians in the US, are there? (relative to others) Haha, that would actually be more interesting than naming it after a magic plant... And I understand their homerism and consumerism - just calling it out for what it is, instead of making apologist excuses for it. Which is simply masturbatory ego-stroking. Iron Fist was the White Savior in both the original comic book and subsequent movie adaptation because they were both following that same script. Even though actual history often didn't... 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
