Marvels Iron Fist [potential spoiler alert]

[silent thunder]

Who?

[dust]

Wassup with Ghost in the Shell?

 

I've never seen the animation but seems like 'fanboys' are a bit put out by the "whitewashing" in this new version. Was the original character supposed to be Japanese?

[Aeran]

I believe I remember someone saying that the protagonist isn't Japanese, but I'm not into anime so don't quote me on that...

 

Either way, Johansson looks a lot more like the protagonist than I can imagine any Japanese actress doing - blame that on the anime art style if you want.

 

 

But, "Wise Asian Master" tropes (Ancient One) should be discarded to "reduce stereotyping."

 

 

But if they hadn't, then you'd have people complaining that the movie had no strong female roles. Identity politics is a lose/lose for the studios because there's always one demographic which people can claim isn't represented sufficiently.

 

I'm not saying that Hollywood doesn't have some weird issues with race, it absolutely does, but I just don't think you can jump from that to the assumption that everyone who's watching what they make is somehow racist, or that the solution is some kind of demographic quota. 

 

You guys should check out Into the Borderlands, Kickass show, great reviews and the star is definitely asian, if that's a prerequisite for you.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Aeran

[dust]

You guys should check out Into the Borderlands, Kickass show, great reviews and the star is definitely asian, if that's a prerequisite for you.

 

Or Badlands even.

 

You should've told me earlier. This whole thing could have been avoided.

 

Just kidding, I still would have argued the point. But yeah I will check it out, thanks. (Looks like I haven't seen all the television yet afterall.)

Edited April 6, 2017 by dust

[Aeran]

Badlands, Borderlands, same difference It's a great show either way. Kinda Crouching Mad Max Hidden Dune.

[gendao]

I believe I remember someone saying that the protagonist isn't Japanese, but I'm not into anime so don't quote me on that...

 

Either way, Johansson looks a lot more like the protagonist than I can imagine any Japanese actress doing - blame that on the anime art style if you want.

But if they hadn't, then you'd have people complaining that the movie had no strong female roles. Identity politics is a lose/lose for the studios because there's always one demographic which people can claim isn't represented sufficiently.

 

I'm not saying that Hollywood doesn't have some weird issues with race, it absolutely does, but I just don't think you can jump from that to the assumption that everyone who's watching what they make is somehow racist, or that the solution is some kind of demographic quota. 

 

You guys should check out Into the Borderlands, Kickass show, great reviews and the star is definitely asian, if that's a prerequisite for you.

Well, Scarlett's character's name is "Motoko Kusanagi," which sounds pretty Japanese to me...

 

Although I think that "whitewashing" started in the anime itself - so she's arguably a passable choice based on how her character was literally drawn to begin with...  And if some Asian-Americans have that much of a problem with that, then they should probably start with the Japanese anime artists.

 

But, Ghost in the Shell was yet another FLOP anyways - so the whole "profit motive" rationale is slowly becoming a loss "motive," lol...

 

The bigger pattern of specific anti-Asian racism from HollyWEIRD is far more inexcusable.

does Hollywood have an Asian problem?

 

Hollywood has only just finished congratulating itself on its progress over African-American diversity, after Moonlight’s Oscar win put all that #OscarSoWhite unpleasantness in the past. Does the industry still have an Asian problem?

But east Asians have particular reason to feel aggrieved, having seen their culture regularly plundered, appropriated, stereotyped and ethnically cleansed. Ghost in the Shell comes in the wake of Emma Stone playing Chinese-Hawaiian “Allison Ng” in Cameron Crowe’s Aloha, Matt Damon at the heart of Chinese epic The Great Wall, and white-dominated Hollywood versions of Asian stories such as The Last Airbender and Dragon Ball Evolution.

a pop-culture conversation still ringing with previous whitewashing outcry: Marvel’s Doctor Strange. This time, the problem was The Ancient One, the superhero’s mystical mentor. In the original comics, the Ancient One was a Himalayan high priest, with long, white facial hair, a bald head and a penchant for Buddhist aphorisms. In the movie, the role went to Tilda Swinton, who, for all her versatility, is possibly the whitest actor out there.

“There’s a frustrated population of Asian Americans who feel the role should have gone to a person of Asian descent,” wrote actor Margaret Cho to Swinton in an email exchange she later made public. “Our stories are told by white actors over and over again, and we feel at a loss to know how to cope with it.”

“Erasure is not the answer to stereotypes,” says Keith Chow, editor of The Nerds of Color blog, which views pop culture through a non-white lens. “When the excuse is, ‘We were trying to not offend you’, well, denying my existence I find more offensive! It’s basically saying we can’t exist as anything other than stereotypes.”

There has been some reverse-whitewashing, too, to be fair: Samuel L Jackson as Nick Fury in The Avengers movies and Will Smith as Deadshot in Suicide Squad, for example. Chinese-American actors Chloe Bennet (nee Chloe Wang) appeared in the TV series Agents of SHIELD, and French-Cambodian Elodie Yung played Elektra (who was originally Greek) in Daredevil. All of these characters were originally written as white.

The series has received mixed reviews, partly for its slow-moving story and lacklustre martial arts, partly because it centres on an entitled rich, white kid, and partly for rehashing some familiar tropes. One that Asian-Americans are particularly weary of is the “white guy who’s better at being Asian than actual Asians”. They’ve put up with it since the Kung Fu TV series in the 1970s (which Bruce Lee developed for himself, only to see David Carradine cast in the role), through the likes of Tom Cruise in The Last Samurai and Uma Thurman in Kill Bill. Now they have Danny Rand, played by British actor Finn Jones, speaking fluent Mandarin and throwing his Japanese-American sparring partner to the mat and telling her things such as: “Your chi can be focused and brought into the fight to overcome any obstacle.” Jones’s attempts to defend the show on Twitter only deepened the row, to the extent he had to delete his account.

I mean, even a UK rag from across the pond has noticed this very same phenomenon - where Asian characters are consistently replaced by White actors - and some White characters are replaced with Black actors (and occasionally Half-Asian actresses).  Where after all the racial "multi-culti diversity musical chairs" (just like Affirmative Action) stops - Asians are the ones most often left standing.

I mean, a short list of just RECENT movies/shows following this replacement formula cited in that article are:

Aloha

The Great Wall

The Last Airbender

Dragon Ball Evolution

Doctor Strange

The Last Samurai

Kill Bill

Iron Fist

That's a huge laundry list just there.  So, this practice is not any exception, but obviously the predictable NORM in HollyWEIRD!  It's not like these are just a few isolated cases and even remotely balanced with some give & take.

 

And this is all coming from the same HillaryWEIRD libs lecturing everyone else on multi-culti diversity, blah blah???

 

But, I guess in light of this larger picture, perhaps it is fitting that "The Ancient One" was replaced by a White woman - because in "zero-sum" diversity card reshuffling - women may often get "empowered" at the expense of men, particularly marginalized ones like Asian men?  They're sure as h*ll not going to make Dr. Strange a woman - so let's switch out the old minority minority guy!  Art imitates life?

Edited April 6, 2017 by gendao

[Aeran]

The Last Airbender

 

 

I thought we agreed to pretend that never happened...

[Rocky Lionmouth]

I thought we agreed to pretend that never happened...

Yes, we did.

 

And what is this Airmover you are talking about? There is no such movie or anything related to it, stop gaslighting the people.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

I know, but one gets that feeling from similar commentary out there in the wild, wild, web.

Lets not forget who runs Hollywood afterall, lol.

8)

 

Who does run Hollywood? Illuminati, Aliens, the Lizards our lords and masters (praise to their teeth and claws for they are the scales that balance our insolence and uneducated ways)? Huge monetary interests that equal the most insecure teenagers in selfassuredness and integrity?

[silent thunder]

I would say it's hunger that runs Hollywood.

 

Hunger for sex, money, influence and attention. 

[Seatle185]

Haha yeah its rare to see a show or movie these days where there isnt lustful sex, and money flaunting. And everyone is focusing less and less on real story, and more on flash, expensive costumes, CGI, explosions... haha they beleive the more money you throw at a production the better people will like it.. and most consumers eat it all up with satisfaction. But luckily there are some directors that still do completely dedicate themselves to their work, they just arent as well known.

[Sloppy Zhang]

The film industry is a business. Business is all about what works, what is the cost, what is the return on investment?

 

A Hollywood exec knows how much Transformers is going to net them based on past performance. Even if the movie is TERRIBLE, they will get X amount of tickets sold on franchise name alone.

 

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles will net them Y amount of ticket sales even if it sucks. Megan Fox up on the screen earns Z amount of ticket sales.

 

Studios, like businesses, are less willing to take risks. They go with what they know. This is human nature.

 

As with business, innovators can enter the market and disrupt current models. The Saw franchise, for instance, had a very minimal budget but performed very, very well. Get Out also had a low budget and far exceeded expectations.

 

When Deadpool came out, execs weren't sure an R-rated X-Man movie would do well. Then it far exceeded expectations. Logan was a huge hit. Now there is an option for Fox to make money off of a lackluster franchise (compared to what Disney is doing with the rest of the Marvel line-up) by potentially starting a new line of R-rated comic book stories.

 

My point here is this: the media is a business. Businesses will make money. They won't change unless there is a dollar incentive. You want under-represented groups? You need to give the dollar incentive. Marvel sales of comic books were down after including more "diversity" in their super-heroes. The primary demographic for comic books (young, straight, white, males) weren't interested. 

 

If you want to see more innovation in ANY industry, YOU must introduce that. Or wait around for someone else who does. If you don't want to, you are certainly entitled to your opinion... but realize nothing is probably going to change.

[dust]

All true, but... what part of the thread exactly are you referring to? That some people were unimpressed with Iron Fist, or that some people are unimpressed that Asiatics are rarely cast as leads in cinema/TV?

 

In either case I'm not sure what your post addresses, true as what you've said is. There's not much innovation to be done with Iron Fist as the basic premise already exists -- it's simply a case of decent writing, casting, and fighting/choreography (and the show fell down a little in all of these areas, but mostly the fighting). As far as the apparent lack of Asiatics on TV... I'm contending that this is mostly down to the widespread (if subconscious and culturally ingrained) preference people have for a white person (usually male) as the strong, morally superior protagonist of any story.

Edited April 14, 2017 by dust

[thelerner]

I think until you're involved in the field, its surprising how hard it is to produce good movie/TV.  It's expensive as hell, and only as good as its weakest link, and there are dozens of links.  From writer to wardrobe to Key Grip.  Your Gaffer doesn't gaf and a million dollar scene is garbage.  Pressure from above, egos from below, time constraints, money constraints, pressure to hit the lowest common denominator while remaining true to your art.

 

Every decision second guessed.  Every story line and actor choice examined for political correctness and conspiracy worthiness.  For all the criticisms in the West we are used to incredibly high standards.  Even mediocre comedies and sitcoms  have top names and talents.  Yet with all that, it's still mostly wasteland.  Go figger

[Sloppy Zhang]

All true, but... what part of the thread exactly are you referring to? That some people were unimpressed with Iron Fist, or that some people are unimpressed that Asiatics are rarely cast as leads in cinema/TV?

 

In either case I'm not sure what your post addresses, true as what you've said is. There's not much innovation to be done with Iron Fist as the basic premise already exists -- it's simply a case of decent writing, casting, and fighting/choreography (and the show fell down a little in all of these areas, but mostly the fighting). As far as the apparent lack of Asiatics on TV... I'm contending that this is mostly down to the widespread (if subconscious and culturally ingrained) preference people have for a white person (usually male) as the strong, morally superior protagonist of any story.

 

Well I gave my review of Iron Fist earlier in the thread that no one cared about, so I was more addressing the overall conversation of various race casting (or lack thereof?) in the media.

 

As thelearner mentioned above, media is expensive. Each decision really is about financial gain vs financial loss.

 

For example, earlier we talked about Dr. Strange and how the Ancient One was cast as a white woman. At that point, your equation becomes:

 

If we cast a white woman in the role, white women will be excited to see themselves in a leading role and buy more tickets. Asians might be mad that we "whitewashed" a character, and buy less tickets. How many new tickets will we sell vs how many we lose?

 

We can cast an elderly Asian man as the Ancient One, and thus have Asian representation in an Asian film. However, will this cause Asians to actually buy more tickets? Will they get angry that we are "typecasting" an elderly Asian man as "the ancient one"? Will women object to a lack of representation as main characters in the film, and not buy tickets? Again, how many news tickets does this help us sell, vs the risk of having people sit out the ticket purchase?

 

As to why this happens... does it even matter? If you'd like to see it changed, is media even the best way to do that? And if media IS the best way to do that, what incentive do media companies (who are businesses with the mission to make a profit) have to implement said change?

[thelerner]

If we consider Star Wars to be included in Super Hero movies, the first one or two of the new trilogy were fascinating examples of racism-ishness.  Maybe it was unconscious but Spielberg insulted Blacks, Jews, Asians with seemingly blind abandon. 

 

While blatant, I don't think it was intentional, rather its an example how its easier to write stupid stereotypes then create new vibrant races and individuals.  Poor, sloppy writing (where editors see you as a well dressed emperor) rather then intentionally exposing yourself as an ass.  Which led to going too PC and trying too hard in the last two films.  

 

Heck, most of the time an ethnicity is prominent in a film, most of its adherents find it cringe worthy.  Disney runs into this all the time.  Bending over backwards (now, not so much in the past) not to look racist and repeatedly failing. 

[Sloppy Zhang]

If we consider Star Wars to be included in Super Hero movies, the first one or two of the new trilogy were fascinating examples of racism-ishness.  Maybe it was unconscious but Spielberg insulted Blacks, Jews, Asians with seemingly blind abandon. 

 

While blatant, I don't think it was intentional, rather its an example how its easier to write stupid stereotypes then create new vibrant races and individuals.  Poor, sloppy writing (where editors see you as a well dressed emperor) rather then intentionally exposing yourself as an ass.  Which led to going too PC and trying too hard in the last two films.  

 

Heck, most of the time an ethnicity is prominent in a film, most of its adherents find it cringe worthy.  Disney runs into this all the time.  Bending over backwards (now, not so much in the past) not to look racist and repeatedly failing. 

 

The other week I went with my girlfriend to see Beauty and the Beast (which also included some diversity) and we saw the "Fight like a Girl" trailer for Transformers..... she found it incredibly cringey...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rW1byMeeZNA

[dust]

I think until you're involved in the field, its surprising how hard it is to produce good movie/TV. It's expensive as hell, and only as good as its weakest link, and there are dozens of links. From writer to wardrobe to Key Grip. Your Gaffer doesn't gaf and a million dollar scene is garbage. Pressure from above, egos from below, time constraints, money constraints, pressure to hit the lowest common denominator while remaining true to your art.

 

Every decision second guessed. Every story line and actor choice examined for political correctness and conspiracy worthiness. For all the criticisms in the West we are used to incredibly high standards. Even mediocre comedies and sitcoms have top names and talents. Yet with all that, it's still mostly wasteland. Go figger

 

Sure.. I've often thought that making good cinema is pretty much the pinnacle of storytelling art so far. Writing, casting, various aspects of directing, the amount of coordination, research, travel, etc etc etc... it takes a lot.

 

But at the same time, we have Daredevil, which has excellent fight scenes and an exciting story; and Iron Fist, which has lacklustre fight scenes; and Jessica Jones, which has a lacklustre story... They all surely have access to the same(ish) resources, so it's a shame that they weren't more consistent.

 

 

Well I gave my review of Iron Fist earlier in the thread that no one cared about, so I was more addressing the overall conversation of various race casting (or lack thereof?) in the media.

 

As thelearner mentioned above, media is expensive. Each decision really is about financial gain vs financial loss.

 

For example, earlier we talked about Dr. Strange and how the Ancient One was cast as a white woman. At that point, your equation becomes:

 

If we cast a white woman in the role, white women will be excited to see themselves in a leading role and buy more tickets. Asians might be mad that we "whitewashed" a character, and buy less tickets. How many new tickets will we sell vs how many we lose?

 

We can cast an elderly Asian man as the Ancient One, and thus have Asian representation in an Asian film. However, will this cause Asians to actually buy more tickets? Will they get angry that we are "typecasting" an elderly Asian man as "the ancient one"? Will women object to a lack of representation as main characters in the film, and not buy tickets? Again, how many news tickets does this help us sell, vs the risk of having people sit out the ticket purchase?

 

As to why this happens... does it even matter? If you'd like to see it changed, is media even the best way to do that? And if media IS the best way to do that, what incentive do media companies (who are businesses with the mission to make a profit) have to implement said change?

 

Well I haven't seen Doctor Strange yet, that example wasn't mine. One could indeed make the case that it's whitewashing or that casting an Asian is stereotyping... it's a lose-lose. (Also there was the issue of China [role is a Tibetan, but acknowledging Tibet as a sovereign nation in any way would anger the Chinese and lose millions of viewers]).

 

It seems to me that focusing on individual cases one at a time obscures the bigger picture. Each production has their own reason for not casting someone, for casting someone else... but when we take a step back isn't the trend kind of obvious? It's a lot better now than it was even ten years ago (having had this conversation I've checked out Into the Badlands, and obviously there's Mr Robot, and I'm aware of a couple of other yellow/brown leads) but loads of productions fall into the same pattern: white male lead, female or black sidekick, 'ethnic' third. That's assuming the whole cast isn't white.

 

As far as "like to see it changed"... it's not in my top ten! It doesn't make me angry -- I know people are racist, the world over. But it does interest me, and it does bother me, a little.

 

Basically, the European-American male is the archetypal hero in modern American/Western mythology, and anyone who deviates from this archetype is less likely to be cast in the leading/titular role. That's my grand theory.

[thelerner]

Yet when you look at the individual cases, sometimes, you find, it's simple nepotism not racism nor reverse racism.  A director likes an actor knows they're talented, has worked with them before and casts them, fans and purist be damned. 

[Sloppy Zhang]

 

It seems to me that focusing on individual cases one at a time obscures the bigger picture. Each production has their own reason for not casting someone, for casting someone else... but when we take a step back isn't the trend kind of obvious? It's a lot better now than it was even ten years ago (having had this conversation I've checked out Into the Badlands, and obviously there's Mr Robot, and I'm aware of a couple of other yellow/brown leads) but loads of productions fall into the same pattern: white male lead, female or black sidekick, 'ethnic' third. That's assuming the whole cast isn't white.

 

See, I find this argument very interesting. If you'll let me switch gears a little bit (since I've never worked in Hollywood, I don't know...) to corporate hiring.

 

I've been on the hiring panel for many interviews in my corporate life. Within my field (IT management) we hire overwhelmingly men. It's not that we turn away women... it's that we aren't getting a lot of women resume's coming in.

 

Additionally, it is overwhelmingly white. Not to say that we consciously hire minorities. It's that the overwhelming majority of the resumes that get submitted to our job postings are of white men.

 

So, moving further along in the interview process, we want the best candidate for the job. Who has a technical background? Who has an education? Who has prior work experience? We use a lot of proprietary software in our line of work, so it's not like we don't train you on the job, we do. But our stuff is just so damn technical, if you don't have a technical background, you aren't going to have a very fun time (believe me... we've tried.... it's not fun for anybody).

 

So we find a resume that has 10 years prior experience in corporate IT, military background (networking in the military), associate's degree (not bachelor's) in a technical field, pursuing classes for a four year degree, and just passed a professional IT certification. Awesome candidate.

 

What's his name? John fucking Smith.

 

And before you know it you have an enterprise networking team of predominantly white men.

 

(who are all super nerdy and love having conversations about the latest Marvel shows, and also into craft beer, so we can go out and drink after. Win win.)

 

Did we, at any point, consciously choose for or against a certain demographic? No. But blow that up, what do you get?

 

I've happened to work with phenomenal women in the field. As well as phenomenal minorities (including myself!)

 

I've also happened to work with incredibly terrible people of all types. In some cases they had the background we wanted, in other cases we didn't.

 

So... I don't know what I'm saying. It's hard to say. You can't always play by numbers. We certainly have a bias. We have a bias against people we think can do the job. And ultimately, we're a business. We need people who are worth the investment (time, money, effort in training). It sucks, but that's how it is.

[dust]

I'm going to assume that this depends largely on where you are. I won't pry into that. And even if you live in an area that isn't particularly white-dominant, we culturally expect white males to be IT people -- maybe black and brown are historically less likely to study in your field? (There's an older thread concerning women & IT in which I had a similarly drawn-out argument with people about the idea that women are historically quite important in the IT field but still represent less of the workforce that one might expect.)

 

Going back to acting though: part of the role of cinema/TV is to represent modern reality, and the reality is that modern America is mostly white, so yeah, white people are going to seem more 'qualified' for any given role, and there are naturally going to be more actors, good and bad, who are white. Simple numbers game.

 

But even then, the one thing I constantly hear Americans talk about -- comedians, politicians, businesspeople, etc -- is "race". You guys are obsessed with it like no other place on Earth. And for good reason, I suppose, considering your history. And much of that is celebration, apparently enjoying the fact that America's a melting pot... but that is represented weirdly on screen, where the white guy takes precedence. It's not that blacks and yellows and women etc don't get hired, it's that they don't get placed at the forefront.

 

Never thought this conversation would last so long. Can't even remember now how it began.

[thelerner]

Back on subject- mostly  now w/ Spoiler alert addons

 

Supposedly Sept/Oct of 2017 we should see DEFENDERS w/ Daredevil, Iron fist and Luke Cage and new comer Squirrel Girl coming together.

 

After that Daredevil breakaway- The Punisher Season 1  Mostly a cooking show where Frank explores Veganism 

then

Jessica Jones Season 2, Early 2018 - Explores Jessica's bi-sexual side, note new MA rating.

 

in Fall 2018  Daredevil Season 3 Where Daredevils killed in first minute and replaced by female clone

after that

Luke Cage Season 2 Finds out his mother is Amish and goes to Pennsylvania to explore his heritage.

 

No sign of Iron Fist dos, but that may be a good thing.  Defender appearances will probably run through all the subsequent solo seasons too.  I think Marvel and Netflix deserve high applause for the general quality of all the series.   They're setting a high bench mark for what a non-network can do. 

[Sloppy Zhang]

I'm going to assume that this depends largely on where you are. I won't pry into that. And even if you live in an area that isn't particularly white-dominant, we culturally expect white males to be IT people -- maybe black and brown are historically less likely to study in your field? (There's an older thread concerning women & IT in which I had a similarly drawn-out argument with people about the idea that women are historically quite important in the IT field but still represent less of the workforce that one might expect.)

 

On this subject, we just had an email go out with our 2016 numbers, including the top performers in our frontline helpdesk teams. These are world-wide team members, and are highly diversified, even in our US office, between women and minorities.

 

90% of the top 10 were white men.

100% of the top 10 were men.

 

Just something interesting that I noticed.

 

Going back to acting though: part of the role of cinema/TV is to represent modern reality, and the reality is that modern America is mostly white, so yeah, white people are going to seem more 'qualified' for any given role, and there are naturally going to be more actors, good and bad, who are white. Simple numbers game.

 

Is that its role, though, to represent modern reality? That argument may hold true in a white-dominated society, but what about in, say, certain Asian cultures where "white traits" are considered more beautiful and desirable in models/actors? Does that reflect modern reality in those countries?

 

But even then, the one thing I constantly hear Americans talk about -- comedians, politicians, businesspeople, etc -- is "race". You guys are obsessed with it like no other place on Earth. And for good reason, I suppose, considering your history. And much of that is celebration, apparently enjoying the fact that America's a melting pot... but that is represented weirdly on screen, where the white guy takes precedence. It's not that blacks and yellows and women etc don't get hired, it's that they don't get placed at the forefront.

 

Race is interesting in America, and personally, I'm not sure I like the direction it is going. Before it seemed about integrating everyone of a different racial background into one cultural group, where we learned about and celebrated different cultural histories. But now people don't even like to use the term "melting pot" because it connotes a loss of cultural identity! They instead like to use the "tossed salad" metaphor (not kidding... and yeah, double entendre) where you can still pick out separate cultures.

 

People are afraid of things like "cultural appropriation" ("Taco Tuesday is offensive and reductionist to Latin American cultures you bigot!") And if you don't fall into a certain racial divide, you are almost precluded from making any comment on it, regardless of that idea's merit ("well you aren't Asian so you aren't fit to comment on how an Asian would perceive this").

 

From my perspective, it seems to be causing more divisions and tribalism than it promotes unity and education. 

 

Which of course carries over to representation in media, and the ensuing discussions.

 

Never thought this conversation would last so long. Can't even remember now how it began.

 

Well I came in at the end so I cheated 

[gendao]

If we consider Star Wars to be included in Super Hero movies, the first one or two of the new trilogy were fascinating examples of racism-ishness. Maybe it was unconscious but Spielberg insulted Blacks, Jews, Asians with seemingly blind abandon.

Actually, George Lucas created the Star Wars franchise...although both he and Steven Spielberg were heavily influenced by Akira Kurosawa & his greatest "tough guy" act, Toshiro Mifune.

Of course the irony is, Akira was actually heavily influenced by older Hollywood Westerns & silent films himself...

So, it's interesting how inspiration crossed cultures and came back full-spiral over generations!

Edited May 1, 2017 by gendao

[dust]

If we consider Star Wars to be included in Super Hero movies, the first one or two of the new trilogy were fascinating examples of racism-ishness.  Maybe it was unconscious but Spielberg insulted Blacks, Jews, Asians with seemingly blind abandon. 

 

While blatant, I don't think it was intentional, rather its an example how its easier to write stupid stereotypes then create new vibrant races and individuals.  Poor, sloppy writing (where editors see you as a well dressed emperor) rather then intentionally exposing yourself as an ass.  Which led to going too PC and trying too hard in the last two films.  

 

Heck, most of the time an ethnicity is prominent in a film, most of its adherents find it cringe worthy.  Disney runs into this all the time.  Bending over backwards (now, not so much in the past) not to look racist and repeatedly failing. 

 

Missed this comment somehow. Never really saw Star Wars as insulting any particular groups, but growing up with it I've never examined it like that. Also... does he insult Jews? Seems out of character that he'd insult anyone, but especially coming from a family of Orthodox Jews..?

 

Yeah there are elements who attempt to be 'the opposite of racist' and end up just looking silly. Too PC or whatever. But I wouldn't say it's cringe-worthy "most of the time"..?

Edited April 27, 2017 by dust