Question about stages in Neidan

[Aletheia]

The other day I meditated for about 20 minutes and the heat in the LDT took this route -- LDT>diaphragm>heart>diaphragm>LDT>diaphragm>heart etc. eventually they seems to merge together and then the heat dropped to the perineum and I did actually feel my body had become more supple after that happened.

 

Then maybe the next day I felt heat in my forehead and thereafter it felt like a dent was forming there.

 

Are there any references to that in neidan?

 

I was thinking about maybe fasting and doing more meditation and perhaps using the computer less and also not reading any books while I try and focus more on meditating. Not totally sure though because I lack a great deal of theoretical knowledge.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Aletheia

[silent thunder]

Great idea to take a break from media and screens when the craving arises.  Much of what we are is what we spend out time thinking about.

 

Far more important to me these days than what I eat, what I wash with and what I practice... is what I allow myself to think about.

[Aletheia]

I think the 3 Dan Tien make more sense to me now, The LDT is where you really tangibly feel the heat, the heart is cooler and the head is pure concentration which unifies on a grand scale. So I need to learn how to concentrate if I want to go further into my practise, I think.

 

Does anyone know any good articles they can link or even a book which has anything on shen type meditation?

Edited April 3, 2017 by Aletheia

[awaken]

After the heat, you will feel electricity around.

 

The heat is like burning.

 

Burning-> electricity-> light

 

The heat stage is 練精 stage, training Jin stage.

Edited April 3, 2017 by awaken

[Aletheia]

Yesterday I went into an acupuncture shop and the woman there was really sad. So I was telling her qi can really be felt and the stadium healings in China were actually qi transmissions and not figments of the imagination, but she wasn't really believing me. So I told her she was sitting on top of a great tradition, all she needed to do was start meditating and her world will be transformed into a happier one!

 

Anyway, I got one of Damo's books on Neidan but I haven't read it, it's just sitting next to my bed with a whole load of other books tbh. However, I picked it up yesterday and it open on  page concerning healing other people using the palm of the hand like I did with my friend. And he said there can be psychic cross contamination between healer and the person being healed. So it was great to read that from a source other than this forum. It helped make the point clear to me that I ought not be doing these things until I really know what I'm doing.

 

The next point in the book concerned the ability to tap into other people's emotions and how it should never be used for personal gain. So that made me think back to the woman in the acupuncture shop and made me realise perhaps I was talking about things which can be hurtful to people if they're not fully conscious of the problem themselves.

 

Anyway, just that section of the book made the book worth having tbh.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Aletheia

[allinone]

also heat stage is a summit or culmination and light spheres will appear and then stand still then a change, Fire will become harmless the air what is sucked in now is beforehand warmed by earth(don't know what element)..you will start to see other things, basically air will loosen up and inner things appear, like things you otherwise would not share or talk about heheh.

Edited April 3, 2017 by allinone

[silent thunder]

One of my teachers is often referred to as 'the healer's healer'.  He's known for affecting healing in hopeless conditions and often has healers seek him out when they are under the very influence you speak of 'cross contamination'.  Folks fly from around the world to have sessions with him.

 

He does not refer to those who come to him as patients... they are students and he is not healing them, he is teaching them and aiding them in returning to vitality and health.  They are not subordinate, he is not above.  He is assisting where he can, with what he has available to him... it is a relationship, not a transaction.

 

He does not consider himself the source of the healing at all.  He is a conduit. 

 

I think this paradigm is of paramount importance when it comes to energetic healing and treatment. 

 

It is so easy to fall into the healer trap that I am the power and the source... it's often present in group work and retreat settings.  Someone once referred to it as "I" healing.  "I walked into the room and I saw that there was a brown spot in the orange of her aura and I cleansed it".  With that ownership comes possession of all that comes with it... much of it potentially not beneficial.

 

When we operate from this point of view, we are mentally projecting and taking ownership and responsibility of the energetic flow and the transaction.  Seems to me that this may well be a main avenue of cross flow and assimilation of energy, rather than allowance for it and release of it.

 

I was deeply affected by your story of healing.  But my second thought was,  while you may have been a catalyst for the event, you were not the source, nor the power, but a focus and conduit.  You mentioned that there were friends in the room when you arrived.  When you entered there was already an energetic matrix of car and love, the combination of all the connected friends present and that shifted with your arrival. 

 

When you arrived and had the instinct and intention arose to act... to me this exemplifies your sensitivity and awareness of an opportunity to catalyze the matrix and focus the existant present conditions with the new potential coupled with the personal willingness to act.

 

The teacher I mentioned above after 50 years of healing and practice... still practices himself daily, even his most basic beginner form.  And he also prepares the healing space where he will 'teach others vitality' before engaging in any healing.  The translator that works with him, told me that in the seven years he's known him, teacher has never been sick, low energy, or under the weather.  He works every day of the week, either teaching or healing and is nearing 86 now with no signs of slowing.

 

Early on in my experiences with energy and internal work in my twenties... I viewed myself as a bucket.  I sometimes was empty and other times full.  When empty, I would look for a place to assign blame "that person sucked out my energy.. they're a vampire!"  And while I quite accept the eight reservoirs are real and do house and hold energy.  There is certainty that energy is always moving and flowing and at some point, my awareness shifted.

 

I no longer see myself as a bucket that is empty or full, rather, I am a series of channels and meridians that energy is constantly flowing through, never hoarding.  What I used to feel as being an empty bucket, I now perceive as my channels are constricted.  When they open up again, I do not feel full, I feel the full flow.

 

Anyway, it's really heartening to hear your experience and your dedication to developing your abilities, sensitivities and awareness.  Deep blessings mate! 

[Aletheia]

Thanks for the kind thoughts, silent thunder.

 

I think I agree with what you're saying, I personally don't really believe in the Western ego at all. I just use "I" through habit and convention and don't really believe self-other-world-cosmos can really be separated in truth.

 

Concerning the healing I don't believe I really did anything other than expand my personal consciousness into areas not generally felt in waking reality. The healing most obviously was not done by me because I don't know how to heal someone's leg the way it happened!

 

At the time I was so entrenched in a way of thinking that I knew qi transmissions were so patently true that I wasn't surprised the healing happened at all. But maybe 10 days afterwards it did sudden hit me what had actually occurred and probably then I was thinking more with the ego because I went into slight shock trying to piece it all together with a more rationally ordered mind-set.

 

From the perspective of direct experience it felt like I was almost outside time watching reality come into existence. So it was a great experience and totally peaceful. Then thinking from the ego I thought WOW I hit a level of consciousness which directly and measurably reshaped material reality and that feels more like you're some material warping monster that can melt reality like an LSD trip, which is not so psychologically healthy I would guess.

 

Really the Western ego believes it can think for itself in total isolation and in contradistinction to the higher intelligences of nature. Which I think is wrong but something the world still suffers.

 

Anyway, your post reminded me I'd written about this elsewhere on the site so I'll cut and paste it here -

 

 

 

The thinking I'm referring to is egoless, worldly-embodied and cosmically principled -- post death, beyond the corporeal body and reborn to the "eye" of the spiritual body. So rather than "I" doing the talking here, the "I" of am is actually a conduit immersed in the eternal light, unbounded by the 4 cardinal points and happily nourishing the fruits of the fertile garden!

 

So, really the self-identical abstract "I" is not really talking at all, just the messenger. Because I listens patently for whispers in the breeze whilst sitting quietly in the dabbled light within the forest clearing. Only then when the message is directly communicated do I put down what is heard, in the written word; and it is here in "The [written] Word" where the poetic essence of direct experience fades from the light and reality loses its brilliance -- in the human mind of phonetic re-interpretation, 3 full deviations away from truth.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Aletheia

[[email protected]]

Heat movement in different parts of the body might be some deviation from normal qi circulation, but not a progress. Especially if it appears in the head. In this case it is better to be careful - if the heat is increasing or appears in different parts uncontrolled. The reason for this is that preheaven qi does not cause such temperature feelings. Feelings of heat can be caused if qi tries to move in unnatural root and the body resists.

I think that its better to look at your feelings attentively and to stop immediately if heat rises. As I earned neidan does not deal with such phenomena.

Rgrds, Ilya

[Aletheia]

Heat movement in different parts of the body might be some deviation from normal qi circulation, but not a progress. Especially if it appears in the head. In this case it is better to be careful - if the heat is increasing or appears in different parts uncontrolled. The reason for this is that preheaven qi does not cause such temperature feelings. Feelings of heat can be caused if qi tries to move in unnatural root and the body resists.

I think that its better to look at your feelings attentively and to stop immediately if heat rises. As I earned neidan does not deal with such phenomena.

Rgrds, Ilya

I've never forced any movement. I've only even done the MCO about 3 times and every other time I just breath wherever the qi goes and generally it's hot/warm because it's always been in the LDT or around that area -- bladder, tailbone etc.

 

Then it sometimes goes up to the diaphragm and heart. Then the other day those areas seemed to connect and the next time I felt heat in my forehead and thereafter no heat there but I can feel the area in the middle of my forehead! However I haven't done much meditation since that time. I felt it in my heart the next meditation and the energy didn't really feel warm and was a bit more subtle.

 

I'm thinking maybe I'm going beyond just the heat in the LDT stage after feeling something a little more subtle in the heart and forehead. But I lack some of the theoretical stuff tbh. I think I need to start getting a little more serious with my meditation perhaps?

[Aletheia]

Obviously being a healer would be great. But firstly I don't have a clue what I'm doing right now and I'm not even meditating properly as far as I can tell. Although, I have no problems helping people if it really turns out to be something I'm able to do. But, secondly I don't want anyone to know about it tbh. I watched that Buddha Boy documentary the other day so perhaps I might just end up meditating inside a tree someplace in a forest when all's said and done lol.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Aletheia

[silent thunder]

Thanks for the kind thoughts, silent thunder.

 

I think I agree with what you're saying, I personally don't really believe in the Western ego at all. I just use "I" through habit and convention and don't really believe self-other-world-cosmos can really be separated in truth.

 

Concerning the healing I don't believe I really did anything other than expand my personal consciousness into areas not generally felt in waking reality. The healing mostly obviously was not done by me because I don't know how to heal someone's leg the way it happened!

 

At the time I was so entrenched in a way of thinking that I knew qi transmissions were so patently true that I wasn't surprised the healing happened at all. But maybe 10 days afterwards it did sudden hit me what had actually occurred and probably then I was thinking more with the ego because I went into slight shock trying to piece it all together with a more rationally ordered mind-set.

 

From the perspective of direct experience it felt like I was almost outside time watching reality come into existence. So it was a great experience and totally peaceful. Then thinking from the ego I thought WOW I hit a level of consciousness which directly and measurably reshaped material reality and that feels more like you're some material warping monster that can melt reality like an LSD trip, which is not so psychologically healthy I would guess.

 

Really the Western ego believes it can think for itself in total isolation and in contradistinction to the higher intelligences of nature. Which I think is wrong but something the world still suffers.

 

Anyway, your post reminded me I'd written about this elsewhere on the site so I'll cut and paste it here -

 

I really resonate with what you wrote... nicely put.

 

I have no idea how my body is regulating hormone production and distribution of nutrients from my last meal... I have no idea where my ideas come from when I am inspired to write, sketch, paint or build... yet they arise.  Intuition, insight, inspiration all start with in.  within...  for as within, so without.  We reflect each other as you seemed to reflect her health and vitality back to her through intention. 

 

Our society seems to have grown steadily and frighteningly into a paradigm that now only accepts the rational, logical mind as useful or healthy... or necessary.  Anything else is tolerated in the young, old and the 'artistic types', but heavily suppressed in all but a few meager avenues of 'civilized' life and I am reminded of the cost of this every time I allow myself to engage with 'the news'.

 

It's really down to just the artists who are socially accepted to live for a time in another manner of thinking and not be deemed 'mentally ill' and even that, is grey and dangerous territory if you go 'too far' and freak people out.  Anyone else running about discussing voices of inspiration receive the sideways glance of judgement and quietly or overtly deemed nutters and bundled off to be saved at the altars of pharmaceutical and psychiatric rehabilitation.  I'm reminded of the odd dichotomy I experienced at church, growing up... all these people who professed to believe in this God.  Yet if anyone talked about hearing its voice... they were deemed crazy. 

 

Indeed many of the modes of perception that society labels "ill" are actually functional socially, yet the lack of value and acknowledgement of the intuitive, or any other manner of perceptions lends to this pervasive and aggressive response to any 'deviant' manners of perception as fundamentally flawed.  The next and often unfortunate step is to intervene and a 'need to save' people from their own innate nature. 

 

Now obviously I don't speak of those manners of perception that are violent to either self, or other.  But it sure seems that there is a pervasive unacceptance of the marginally functional.  Those who within the margins of society, make their way along the edges without harm to any others, just their mere presence is too uncomfortable to be tolerated and we then rationalize as a culture the need to 'save them' and seek to treat, or more usually just hide them behind institutional walls, because they do nothing more than make us uncomfortable and perhaps, just perhaps ignite in us a certain awareness that we too, hold these other manners of seeing, of hearing, of perceiving within us and our prolonged isolation from it, triggers the fear response when we witness others in the thrall.

 

Our language and culture reflect it.. and has so saturated the collective paradigm with the colors and palette of the left brain, straight line, mode of perception.  That we now subtely and actively suppress the validity, merit and even outrightly question the need of the right hemisphere.  The intuitive, creative, unstructured it seems, is now viewed as not just abnormal, but unhealthy, broken and should always be sought out and healed through saving elements of civilized treatment. 

 

I suspect its roots are tapped in the concepts of original sin and the abiding fallacy that there is somewhere this thing I always hear talked about with such confidence... this thing I have never experienced anywhere, in all my travels, energetic or physical ever...

 

 

 

 

normal...

 

 

 

 

 

edit: deleted double quote

Edited April 3, 2017 by silent thunder

[Aletheia]

 

 

the left brain, straight line, mode of perception.

 

You'd probably like Marshall McLuhan if you're into thinking about brain hemispheres. I'd love to go into it but it would take hours!

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

Trying to do neidan without a teacher is a bad idea because it is common to cause energy to move in bad directions and cause blockages.  

I believe that the person who posts under the name Awaken is teaching Nei Dan to dedicated students here, maybe you should ask her to be your teacher and she can give you advice about how to practice to get the best results. 

[opendao]

The other day I meditated for about 20 minutes and the heat in the LDT took this route -- LDT>diaphragm>heart>diaphragm>LDT>diaphragm>heart etc. eventually they seems to merge together and then the heat dropped to the perineum and I did actually feel my body had become more supple after that happened.

 

Then maybe the next day I felt heat in my forehead and thereafter it felt like a dent was forming there.

 

Are there any references to that in neidan?

 

yes, usually such things are considered as dangerous deviations in Neidan.

I really suggest to find a real (not online) teacher and correct your practice before continuing.

[Aletheia]

yes, usually such things are considered as dangerous deviations in Neidan.

I really suggest to find a real (not online) teacher and correct your practice before continuing.

Where are you getting that from books? What exactly is the problem I ought to be looking out for and what is the nature of the deviation?

 

If you can explain the nature of the problem and how one ought to correct it I'll be grateful for your help!

 

Brian what do you think? Why don't you say something rather than just thank opendao for his post?

 

If I'm going in the wrong direction and other people can confirm what you're saying I'm not seeing what the problem is. If what you say turns out to be slightly controversial with other people disagreeing WHO CARES ABOUT THAT IT'S NOT THE END OF THE WORLD. Either way I'm more than happy to hear what people have to say because I'll learn something either way. Right now it should be more than obvious that I'm pretty much in the dark here!

 

If I could just go down the road and consult my local neidan practitioner I would. But I'm guessing they're a little thin on the ground!

 

As I mentioned in another post I had no intentions of getting into qigong before I knew some of the basic theory, but I accidentally activated the LDT and since that time I've always been ahead of my understanding of these things. I'm trying to tread water but I just seem to be getting deeper into it all the while! I mean I still haven't really worked out what meditation is all about tbh!

Edited April 4, 2017 by Aletheia

[Aletheia]

opendao is making the claim my whole life is a "dangerous deviation" which is quite something to hear when you're dealing with the energies of subtle bodies.

 

Personally I have my doubts about opendao and think he's a fake and a poseur.

 

Now let's look at the evidence here. YEAP I'M THE BAD GUY.

 

You literally couldn't make this shit up the whole world has gone insane and no one is any the wiser.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Aletheia

[allinone]

Changing the form of your body by age, young to old and back. Is differnt than turning yourself from human to bat and back.

 

So be careful what alchemical component you brewing there!

[Aletheia]

Thanks allinone.

 

I think I'm filling the heart which will then open the 3rd eye -

 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/28582-taoist-yoga-discussion-thread/?p=444756

 

I got Foundations for Internal Alchemy today too.

 

I was wondering about the eye rotations mentioned in this post -

 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/41958-lostinhemplation/?p=711382

 

Does anyone know anything about that?

 

Also I read Drew's last blog post and I'm now wondering if my friend with the bad leg might of had orgasms during the healing and perhaps that's why she went a bit quiet lol. I mention in my post about the healing that I said she went quiet because she was feeling the love energy. When I called her up afterward I asked if she could feel the heat and she said "yes, it's crazy" so now I wonder exactly what does she mean by that 0_o

 

At one point it literally looked like her leg was transforming before my eyes, I'm not even joking. The whole experience is completely nuts.

 

I will go around there sometime and ask what she felt at the time. The thing is she takes drugs and is not always coherent and I don't really want to take drugs right now which will happen if I go around there. Also it's a bit of a trek to get there and I'm not interested in making the journey right now.

 

I'm also interested to know how long the leg had been bad (it was obviously getting worse because she was talking about going to hospital but she didn't have the money for a taxi) and what happened with the health of the leg following the healing.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Aletheia

[allinone]

That explanation makes sense! Good observation, hypothesis. Something what can be tested.

[[email protected]]

Correct neidan unlikely can cause heat moving in the body. The reason for this is that preheaven qi is a very thin substance and does not deal with the termal feelings. All this stuff is a postheaven qi qualities even if it seems to appear spontaneously.

Rgrds, Ilya

[opendao]

Where are you getting that from books? What exactly is the problem I ought to be looking out for and what is the nature of the deviation?

 

If you can explain the nature of the problem and how one ought to correct it I'll be grateful for your help!

 

I'm not aware of any english book explaining the nature of deviations in qigong and neidan or even listing them... 

 

The problem is in using intention, attention and imagination. And most of the exported variants of Taoist arts are based on them, so obviously their evangelists try to avoid speaking about potential issues they have no idea how to solve...

 

Neidan uses San Bao, Three Treasures: Jing, Qi and Shen. But Three Treasures have to be Pre-Heavean, or they are impure and cannot be used.

 

When one reads about LDT or small heavenly circle in popular "neidan" books, intention is focused on getting such things, attention is focused by such intention and it's not very hard to imitate anything you want inside of own body.

 

However any tool our mind can use - intention, attention, visualization, thoughts etc - is impure and is based on Post-Heaven Qi. So such results have no value for the alchemy, for the further transformation of the body and spirit.

 

What you describe as a technique you use is a qigong technique. Qigong uses postures, breathing or mind to control post-heaven qi. Its role is to heal and make life better and happier. Qigong cannot bring any of the results of the Neidan-alchemy.

Taking this into consideration, if you have no Neidan teacher yet, it's better to focus on balancing your Qigong, so it stops creating deviations.

 

Deviation here means lack of qi balance, first of all. Good, ancient qigong (yangsheng) variants don't use mind, but use other methods to control post-heaven qi and bring it to a balance.

 

Why any mind work is not desirable for Qigong? Because it creates an opposite result, it dis-balance qi, and it's unavoidable (that's how our heart-mind works). Online "gurus" love it, because such dis-balance creates fast and impressive sensations. But we can understand that such home-made "schools" only teach how to press gas and break pedals at the same time... sensations are strong, but vehicle will be broken quite soon...

 

To sum up, there is no way to learn Qigong or Neidan by books or videos. Human nature has constant tendency to jump to extremes and choose the most dis-balance way possible. Only knowledgeable and patient teacher can help.

 

In your case I'd suggest to stop reading and doing, and start walking more outside (park, forest), until all the effects are gone. Then find a teacher and start learning any ancient qigong without mind work: zhang zhuan, simple tai chi movements, 5 animals etc. For that you might need to travel, but I really think that traveling expenses are nothing comparing to the issues one might have by doing wrong things (like telling I'm fake and poser :-)

Edited April 4, 2017 by opendao

[Aletheia]

Thanks, opendao I appreciate the post!

[Aletheia]

Right, I'm going over to my friend's, I just called her up. I think I was on the speaker phone and I said "It's unbelievable isn't it?" and she said "YES!" then someone in the background said "come over quickly so we can hear you talk about philosophy!"

 

So there you go. I'm pretty sure not only did they witness what happened but they felt it too. Normally after about 45 minutes of my talking about philosophy none stop they tell me to "SHUT UP!" now they're asking me to come over!

 

Honestly this is why is so incredible because other people experienced it too and to be blunt it was so fucking high level it can't be put into words!

 

So you can say I'm imagining things and Drew is crazy, but who are you really fooling in the end?

Edited April 4, 2017 by Aletheia

[Aletheia]

I think it was a mistake to go back to my friend's because I still feel rough as hell from taking drugs.

 

She said she may well have felt some warmth but it was very much secondary to the relaxation and pain cessation she felt.

 

She doesn't think all the swelling went away like I was saying.

 

Also she said she couldn't remember me pulling out energy and her leg changing colour.

 

So I said to her "you don't remember trying to pull energy out of your leg after you saw it had changed colour while I was doing it?"

 

and she said "oh, yeah! I forgot about that!"

 

So, the thing is we were all high AF so maybe the swelling really went down like I believe and her leg did change colour while I was pulling energy from her leg, it was actually her who said that happened at the time because I didn't notice it.

 

Who knows? and how cares anyway? I really need to focus on getting things right so  I can move forward and progress with my practise from here on in.

 

I read Drew's blog while I was high and he comments on this thread. I'll have to reread what he wrote though.

 

The reason I believe I felt heat in my forehead is because I hadn't been practising the MCO and when I had done it I hadn't felt anything at the forehead. So the heat was the channel or UDT being initiated for the first time and in any case I've felt no heat there since, but I do feel something there.

 

I'm going back to bed I think.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Aletheia