Question about stages in Neidan

[dwai]

Ah. Yes, you asked me a question buried in a reply to opendao and I missed it. Sorry!

 

I think you should stop trying to think your way through this and should instead find a real teacher of some high-level energetic practice who you can meet in-real-life. I think you will find this problematic, frankly, because your cup is full; until you recognize that you don't have the proper puzzle-pieces, you will continue to be defensive towards, and argue with, anyone who gives you advice which doesn't align with your current understanding. I think you should take a break from any energetic practices and from intellectual pursuits for a good long while (many months) and just "be." I think you should stop taking hallucinogenics. I think your current trajectory puts you at risk for a psychotic break. I think you had a legitimate experience but a premature one, and I think that you should either sincerely follow one of the respected pathways in that direction or avoid those avenues entirely. I think the phenomena you describe experiencing are indicative of playing with fire and I think you have already been burned even if you don't recognize it -- avoiding both energetic and intellectual engagements should quickly stop & reverse that, as would a legitimate practice.

 

That's what I think.

 

FWIW, I found Drew had become incomprehensible and he comes across as "unstable". I do hope it is not the case, as he had a lot potential approx. as far as 4-5 years back.

 

I also didn't know it was his blog at that time, but it seems he dedicated an entire post on me, first making up some straw man concepts he ascribed to me, and then proceeded to "demolish"

 

https://voidisyinyang.blogspot.com/2017/03/why-dwai-on-thetaobums-misunderstands.html

Edited April 6, 2017 by dwai

[Aletheia]

Ah. Yes, you asked me a question buried in a reply to opendao and I missed it. Sorry!

 

I think you should stop trying to think your way through this and should instead find a real teacher of some high-level energetic practice who you can meet in-real-life. I think you will find this problematic, frankly, because your cup is full; until you recognize that you don't have the proper puzzle-pieces, you will continue to be defensive towards, and argue with, anyone who gives you advice which doesn't align with your current understanding. I think you should take a break from any energetic practices and from intellectual pursuits for a good long while (many months) and just "be." I think you should stop taking hallucinogenics. I think your current trajectory puts you at risk for a psychotic break. I think you had a legitimate experience but a premature one, and I think that you should either sincerely follow one of the respected pathways in that direction or avoid those avenues entirely. I think the phenomena you describe experiencing are indicative of playing with fire and I think you have already been burned even if you don't recognize it -- avoiding both energetic and intellectual engagements should quickly stop & reverse that, as would a legitimate practice.

 

That's what I think.

From memory I think Drew said the deviancy is the right conclusion. I'm not upset with him because he took the time to write a whole blog post about it with a load of great information too. I get upset when people say something and then can't back it up.

 

It was very nice of opendao to write something and I appreciate his doing that. But what he wrote wasn't really relevant to the topic at hand although I have no problem with that really. He was being genuine and honest and those are good qualities.

 

You're saying I'm taking hallucinogenics and heading toward a psychotic breakdown. What you're saying is so fantastical and in the realm of fairy tales I'm not even going to respond to such bizarre claims.

 

Yes, I did manage to project qi and my friend did experience it first hand. Maybe it's a one-off and maybe if I don't get my act together it will never happen again. Maybe there's a slight chance I can achieve very high levels in that area. All seem a very real possibility at this time. 

[Aletheia]

FWIW, I found Drew had become incomprehensible and he comes across as "unstable". I do hope it is not the case, as he had a lot potential approx. as far as 4-5 years back.

 

I also didn't know it was his blog at that time, but it seems he dedicated an entire post on me, first making up some straw man concepts he ascribed to me, and then proceeded to "demolish"

 

https://voidisyinyang.blogspot.com/2017/03/why-dwai-on-thetaobums-misunderstands.html

LOL

[Aletheia]

Seriously Drew is super high level. I think most people can't see past his orgasms from a distance, whatever they might think about it. But there's so much more people are completely missing and I think he's getting most of his stuff from qigong and then applying it right across the board with his music theory in to lots other areas. That's what gives him the edge over other academics.

 

I don't want people to think I'm just a mindless follower of Drew because I'm not. I think the essence or core of what he's saying is totally correct plus he's a good guy and very funny too!

Edited April 6, 2017 by Aletheia

[Brian]

From memory I think Drew said the deviancy is the right conclusion. I'm not upset with him because he took the time to write a whole blog post about it with a load of great information too. I get upset when people say something and then can't back it up.

 

It was very nice of opendao to write something and I appreciate his doing that. But what he wrote wasn't really relevant to the topic at hand although I have no problem with that really. He was being genuine and honest and those are good qualities.

 

You're saying I'm taking hallucinogenics and heading toward a psychotic breakdown. What you're saying is so fantastical and in the realm of fairy tales I'm not even going to respond to such bizarre claims.

 

Yes, I did manage to project qi and my friend did experience it first hand. Maybe it's a one-off and maybe if I don't get my act together it will never happen again. Maybe there's a slight chance I can achieve very high levels in that area. All seem a very real possibility at this time.

Ummm...

 

You specifically asked what I thought...

 

You are also the one who brought up your drug use, and the one who specified "mushrooms."

 

You also happen to be the one who has opened numerous (rather anxious) threads here asking for advice and then showing considerable agitation when the responses don't necessarily validate your current beliefs. Your apparent distress is as much a warning sign as the energetic phenomena you describe.

[Aletheia]

Ummm...

 

You specifically asked what I thought...

 

You are also the one who brought up your drug use, and the one who specified "mushrooms."

 

You also happen to be the one who has opened numerous (rather anxious) threads here asking for advice and then showing considerable agitation when the responses don't necessarily validate your current beliefs. Your apparent distress is as much a warning sign as the energetic phenomena you describe.

Nope I'm not anxious and my "agitation" is directed at perverts wanting to suck me off!

[dwai]

Seriously Drew is super high level. I think most people can't see past his orgasms from a distance, whatever they might think about it. But there's so much more people are completely missing and I think he's getting most of his stuff from qigong and then applying it right across the board with his music theory in to lots other areas. That's what gives him the edge over other academics.

 

I don't want people to think I'm just a mindless follower of Drew because I'm not. I think the essence or core of what he's saying is totally correct plus he's a good guy and very funny too!

 

I think he's a good guy too. Just a bit unstable at present. I'd recommend don't blindly follow him. It's better to get lessons from a bona fide teacher -- try the Stillness Movement that Ya Mu teaches here, or Spring Forest Qigong, etc. Depending on where you live, it helps to have a real teacher

[Aletheia]

I think he's a good guy too. Just a bit unstable at present. I'd recommend don't blindly follow him. It's better to get lessons from a bona fide teacher -- try the Stillness Movement that Ya Mu teaches here, or Spring Forest Qigong, etc. Depending on where you live, it helps to have a real teacher

I'm going to start doing moving yin and yang in the morning and at night, plus add in the small universe even though I'm not totally sure about that right now. But most people seem agreed it's necessary to advance. But, I'm going to carry on just breathing wherever the heat goes and start going longer with that mediation seeing as that's got me where I am right now.

 

And I'm going to do more wim hoff and wide horse stance too.

 

Healing doesn't interest me any more at all. If I ever get high level I'll just do long meditation routines in the countryside and not talk about it to anyone,

[Starjumper]

I'm way past thinking with the ego that's why I can "project qi"

 

That's the most ridiculous thing I've read in weeks, and I read political posts too.  Tell me Egoless one, how come I can project chi and I have an ego?

 

In any case I want you to know that it is an honor to be insulted by someone of your stature!

 

Anyway if you're so affected by reading comments on a forum that it makes you want to vomit you're wasting your time at that hermitage of yours. Most likely you have an ejaculation problem too. So my advice to you is CUT IT OUT AND START GETTING SERIOUS and get off the internet as well if you don't understand its inner workings which you obviously do not.

 

Honestly you just let the cat out of the bag that you're still playing about with your base emotions my friend.

 

My dear, it's not anything you said that needed the vomit emoticon, it's whenever anyone mentions MCO or small universe, etc, anywhere on the forum, then it should be immediately followed by a vomit emoticon.   

 

I did the MCO on the day I activated the LDT and all the only places I didn't feel anything were the top of the head and the 3rd eye. I wrote about that in the first thread I stated.

 

Well then you did it incorrectly didn't you.  You did something stupid incorrectly, and you projected some energy while you were stoned on hallucinogens, which is nothing special, and in your egolessnes you wanted her to have had an orgasm from your energy?

 

Doin' the MCO is like jerking off, only as far as health and spiritual growth are concerned jerking off is probably better for you than the MCO.  So here's the story as it stands now:    There's this kindergarten level kid, sitting on the floor in a school hallway, hasn't even started classes yet, his back against the wall, jerking off, while other students and teachers walk by, going to classes.  The kid blurts out to the passersby:  "Tell me what it's like to be a wizard!"  

[dwai]

I'm going to start doing moving yin and yang in the morning and at night, plus add in the small universe even though I'm not totally sure about that right now. But most people seem agreed it's necessary to advance. But, I'm going to carry on just breathing wherever the heat goes and start going longer with that mediation seeing as that's got me where I am right now.

 

And I'm going to do more wim hoff and wide horse stance too.

 

Healing doesn't interest me any more at all. If I ever get high level I'll just do long meditation routines in the countryside and not talk about it to anyone,

 

The small universe is always happening, whether you focus on it or not. It's actually not a good idea to move energy through the channels using the mind at all. It's better to learn how to generate a taiji ball (or energy ball if you please) palpably and then use that to indirectly move your energy. This helps you access energies outside as well as within you. 

 

We call this the "indirect method" of cultivation. Contrary to how the name sounds, "indirect method" is more powerful than "direct method" (wherein , you'd use your mind to move energy through various channels). The effects of indirect method are far safer in the long term and supremely more powerful.

[Aletheia]

Oh dear it's Capitan Cortisol Cycle back for round two.

 

I noticed you're not denying your secret masturbation habit and just to make things clear I'M NOT TAKING HALLUCINOGENS AND HAVEN'T EVEN TOUCHED THEM FOR YEARS.

 

 

 

Doin' the MCO is like jerking off, only as far as health and spiritual growth are concerned jerking off is probably better for you than the MCO

 

WOW you certainly walked into that one. Maybe that quote will have to go in my forum sig LOL. And you're claiming qi projection too which surely doesn't add up.

 

Are you making the claim you personally can project qi to a high level while also ejaculating in your spare time?

 

 

 

My dear, it's not anything you said that needed the vomit emoticon, it's whenever anyone mentions MCO or small universe, etc, anywhere on the forum, then it should be immediately followed by a vomit emoticon.

 

So now you're insulting Master Lin too? What you're saying makes no sense and honestly makes me wonder about you mental stability. Never mind it's deeply offensive and disrespectful. Please refrain from posting your unhinged fantasies in my threads in future and I really mean that. I might joke around with other people but you're sick in the head for real.

[Wu Ming Jen]

The sensation of ants crawling around on the top of the head (Heavenly palace) seems to be a common description for that spot.

[Aletheia]

The small universe is always happening, whether you focus on it or not. It's actually not a good idea to move energy through the channels using the mind at all. It's better to learn how to generate a taiji ball (or energy ball if you please) palpably and then use that to indirectly move your energy. This helps you access energies outside as well as within you. 

 

We call this the "indirect method" of cultivation. Contrary to how the name sounds, "indirect method" is more powerful than "direct method" (wherein , you'd use your mind to move energy through various channels). The effects of indirect method are far safer in the long term and supremely more powerful.

Well now I need clarification because I've only moved qi a couple of times really. Once when I first activated the LDT and I did the orbit and felt it all around apart from the two points in the head and a second time in bed once with inhale up the back and exhale down the front and I felt it warming up at the LDT each time.

 

All my meditations have been me breathing wherever the qi goes with no active involvment concerning where it ought to go.

 

Right now my LDT is warm and if I put my focus there and start breathing correctly it will probably move and I'll feel my 3rd eye too. I'm just not doing anything today because I feel a little off colour from going out and taking drugs (NOT HALLUCINOGENS and don't ask what I took because I'm not telling anyone)

[Aletheia]

The sensation of ants crawling around on the top of the head (Heavenly palace) seems to be a common description for that spot.

I can feel the crown of my head when I breath and focus on the qi so that it feels like the air is coming through the top of my head and it felt watery when I put qi there the first time. It kind of feels like there's a hole there and in the 3rd eye and if I put my finger in either of those spots it will go right through like the skull isn't there.

[dwai]

Well now I need clarification because I've only moved qi a couple of times really. Once when I first activated the LDT and I did the orbit and felt it all around apart from the two points in the head and a second time in bed once with inhale up the back and exhale down the front and I felt it warming up at the LDT each time.

 

All my meditations have been me breathing wherever the qi goes with no active involvment concerning where it ought to go.

 

Right now my LDT is warm and if I put my focus there and start breathing correctly it will probably move and I'll feel my 3rd eye too. I'm just not doing anything today because I feel a little off colour from going out and taking drugs (NOT HALLUCINOGENS and don't ask what I took because I'm not telling anyone)

Hold your palms facing each other about one foot apart. Line up the centers of your palms and put your attention on an imaginary line connecting these two points.

 

Now your LDT is warmed up right? Just relax, hold this posture and breath in and out slowly from your LDT. You will start feeling an elwctromagnetic sensation between your palms.

 

After a little while, slowly continue breathing but bring your palms closer towards each other. Feel what happens.

 

Then move your palms away form each other and see what happens.

 

EDIT: Adding some more details. Once you get proficient with doing this, you will start feeling a spherical shape appears between your palms.  With time this ball will grow in size and eventually radiate beyond the distance between the two palms. The ball can be split into two balls (one in each palm), the ball can be made to spin and become a elongated cylindrical shape and so on. There are many drills that can be done by just moving the ball. What you do externally with the ball will also happen internally in your channels. This is the indirect method. 

Edited April 6, 2017 by dwai

[Aletheia]

Hold your palms facing each other about one foot apart. Line up the centers of your palms and put your attention on an imaginary line connecting these two points.

 

Now your LDT is warmed up right? Just relax, hold this posture and breath in and out slowly from your LDT. You will start feeling an elwctromagnetic sensation between your palms.

 

After a little while, slowly continue breathing but bring your palms closer towards each other. Feel what happens.

 

Then move your palms away form each other and see what happens.

 

EDIT: Adding some more details. Once you get proficient with doing this, you will start feeling a spherical shape appears between your palms.  With time this ball will grow in size and eventually radiate beyond the distance between the two palms. The ball can be split into two balls (one in each palm), the ball can be made to spin and become a elongated cylindrical shape and so on. There are many drills that can be done by just moving the ball. What you do externally with the ball will also happen internally in your channels. This is the indirect method. 

Thanks! I made a huge qi ball last night. Each time I widened my hands and then brought them closer together again it got bigger.

 

Do you, or anyone else, know any books which goes over that kind of stuff? I want to buy one or two books that have loads of good information in. I'm not really talking about neidan here. Just books with stuff like the above.

[dwai]

Thanks! I made a huge qi ball last night. Each time I widened my hands and then brought them closer together again it got bigger.

 

Do you, or anyone else, know any books which goes over that kind of stuff? I want to buy one or two books that have loads of good information in. I'm not really talking about neidan here. Just books with stuff like the above.

 

I recommend this book -- https://www.amazon.com/Restoring-Your-Life-Energy-Well-Being/dp/1590309960/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8

 

This is presented as qigong but actually goes far beyond as these are some of the very engines we use to drive our Dao Gong/Shen Gong cultivations in Temple Style Tai Chi.

[Taoist Texts]

I can feel the crown of my head when I breath and focus on the qi so that it feels like the air is coming through the top of my head and it felt watery when I put qi there the first time. It kind of feels like there's a hole there and in the 3rd eye and if I put my finger in either of those spots it will go right through like the skull isn't there.

These are very good signs. Just go easy on heat. Too much heat is dangerous.

[Aletheia]

These are very good signs. Just go easy on heat. Too much heat is dangerous.

Thanks for the help!

[Aletheia]

I recommend this book -- https://www.amazon.com/Restoring-Your-Life-Energy-Well-Being/dp/1590309960/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8

 

This is presented as qigong but actually goes far beyond as these are some of the very engines we use to drive our Dao Gong/Shen Gong cultivations in Temple Style Tai Chi.

THANKS!

[allinone]

These are very good signs. Just go easy on heat. Too much heat is dangerous.

 

are you looking at the familiar words OP uses and getting confused?

 

There is this thing as time. He said he started out just. In longer time there comes understanding that these type of energies bring not enough big impact, dispassion will come by itself. Euphoric tendencies will subside. So there will be a flip to next phase of dark tendencies will surface and suicidal thoughts appear and at the peak its noticed it is caused by craving and it will cause breakthrough or cessation of suffering.

Then new life starts with new hopes and picking up again books of spirituality and aliens and feeling almighty, vitality is back.

 

But because of clinging he still has inferior views, like there is qi and energy and heat existing...

[Taoist Texts]

are you looking at the familiar words OP uses and getting confused?

 

Hehe) i am never confused. I either know, or i dont.

 

  So there will be a flip to next phase of dark tendencies

 

 

 

may be there will be, and may be there will be not.

[Aletheia]

He said he started out just.

 

No I didn't say that. I've been thinking philosophy day and night for years.

 

Maybe I've been mean spirited in this thread, but I explained I was off colour and it was my own fault. And if you look through the posts in this thread people's answers are circumscribed predominately within the narrow confides of the Western mind while suggesting I'm a deviant without sufficient reason then when pushed wildly exclaiming I'm psychotic, one nameless person even managed to completely lose the plot and have a total breakdown, others claim I'm not enlightened while bad mouthing legitimate traditions and generally people are weaving weird tangents into the thread which never even touch upon the thread's topic.

 

Starjumper is even passionately comparing what I'm saying with the miasmic political sphere in an attempt to win an argument wholly engineered within his own mind, which is quite a feat! And it's not as if politics isn't contained by the speed of light inside a post-metaphysical event horizon demonically playing to discarnate man's base emotions many orders away from the truth anyway! The guy is literally the sound of mad barking LOL.

Edited April 8, 2017 by Aletheia

[Aletheia]

Anyway, I have no ill intent for anyone here. I'm just messing around on the interwebz throwing fire!

 

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

I thought about this thread a bit and want to address some of the claims/problems here.

 

1: the heat goes to the head and the head feels like it has a dent:

the heat going to the head is completely normal, but it is important how it feels, because when you meditate, it should always be comfortable. If you feel too excited during meditation, the medicine will not be born.   One of the earliest major treatises on Nei Dan by Chen Tuan (Yin Zhen Ren Huan Dan Ge Zhu) says that you should focus first on the "Northern Sea" (lower dantian) which is the ultimate darkness (non action, non intention) and then the "Zheng Qi" (upright energy) will move to the head by the river cart (moving up the ren mai meridian).   When the energy arrives at the head, you shouldn't force it, just let it be until it is ready to move on its own.  The best thing to do is "bao yi" (contain as one.  Your whole body seems to be one unbroken original qi).   Trying to open the du mai, third eye, or any energy centre is the lower method of neidan, it is not as good as non intention.

 

2: the Dantian is not something you should use the intention to focus on:

the majority of Neidan documents suggest to focus on the Qi Xue point, which is just under the dantian.  The problem is that people don't know how to focus and they think they need to place too much attention.   You don't need to put much attention at all, just breathe to that area through the nose, soften the breath so you can't hear it, and allow your mind to settle in the lower abdomen until it seems like the mind disappears.   The best way is that there is no you, no surroundings, and if you are successful, even no nothingness.   That is how the real pre heaven three treasures are joined.   If you focus on the breath, the intention, and the lower abdomen, that is post heaven and it is called "wai yao" or outer medicine.  outer medicine is good for your health, but not good for spiritual purposes.  It is better to direct the mind to genuine non action, in which the attention and breath are only used as an anchor, not as antagonist.

 

3: you should find a real teacher to learn in person:

I agree with this claim.  The best thing to do is find a real teacher who can teach you face to face.  This can be very hard to do though and many teachers who claim to teach neidan are actually teaching visualization or qi gong.  Both visualization and qi gong can be good though and certainly you can get benefit from them, so don't discount them out of hand.

Studying from people online is possible and certainly I have personally taught a number of people, but out of the thirty or so people I've taught, only about three have been able to manifest what I would consider to be the basic level of Nei Dan practice (able to enter into non action and the pre heaven state).    Most people would be better suited by studying Zen, or just counting their breaths, since those are much easier to learn and also have many good benefits.  After a long time, I've come around to the conclusion that Nei Dan isn't for everyone and that anyone who is going to study it seriously must be very intelligent and very meticulous about practice and research. 

 

Studying on your own is an even bigger risk and there are very few resources out there to tell you if what you are doing is right or wrong.   If you want to meditate on your lower Dantian, you should just focus on that area, don't worry about the rest of your body.  The most important thing is to maintain calm and stability.   Don't mess around with the third eye or heart gate until you actually have a teacher to tell you what to do, because those practices can be very dangerous if you make mistakes. 

I personally believe that meditating on the whole body as one piece is actually safer for most people than the lower dantian and it is much harder to make mistakes that way.   If you are going to practice by yourself, then you need to research twice as seriously as someone who already has a teacher, so think carefully because the potential for bad results is very real and you probably don't want to go down that road.

 

I would also suggest that you check out other traditions which might have schools in your area.   Neidan is one school of meditation among many and there are many other schools which can produce equal results, so be open minded and look around for a master level teacher.  The best situation is you find a master level teacher in an art that works for you, the worst situation is that you find a bad teacher in the art you want to study.

 

Hopefully this has been somewhat useful.