Question about stages in Neidan

[Aletheia]

Thanks, SB. I have no problem with people thinking I'm a fantasist and a fraud, it's part of the Menippean tradition tbh so I'm actually honoured your suggesting I take up Zen or just count my breaths rather than study neidan.

 

 

 

After a long time, I've come around to the conclusion that Nei Dan isn't for everyone and that anyone who is going to study it seriously must be very intelligent

 

Actually counting is a bit difficult for me so I'm just going to look in the mirror and dribble down my chin while I pretend to be a Ferrari instead!

Edited April 8, 2017 by Aletheia

[Aletheia]

 

LET'S GET RETARDED

[allinone]

No I didn't say that. I've been thinking philosophy day and night for years.

 

To be blunt, you claim you can change bread to butter with your mind. And now you want to know stages of neidan.

 

It just weird that you ask advice.

[Aletheia]

Well it's difficult for me to say where I am, but I have studied other philosophies which are probably helpful for neidan and learned from some great teachers whom shall remain nameless.

 

Anyway, I just read some of Drew's latest blog post and after reading what SB wrote above concerning the LDT it's really helpful. So I'm grateful for that. From now on I'm actually going to put my focus on the LDT rather than just wherever the heat happens to go. I did the breathing decribed in the blog post and can feel the heat dropping on the exhale while my focus is at the navel during the inhale.

 

https://voidisyinyang.blogspot.com/2017/04/more-details-on-real-lower-dantian-and.html

 

 

 

during inhalation, as the meditator is drawing the postnatal breath down into the lungs and down to the navel, the prenatal breath rises up from the lower abdomen, where it joins together with the postnatal breath. During exhalation, as the postnatal breath rises up out of the lungs, the postnatal breath sinks down again to the lower abdominal region ...'

 

So it's not really obvious to me that my LDT has really been consolidated because the heat has been a bit all over the place so from now on I'm going to focus behind navel when I breath and see what happens.

 

I dread to ask.. but, does anyone see any problems with that, am I missing something or leaving something unthought here?

Edited April 8, 2017 by Aletheia

[allinone]

Taoist Yoga first chapter is about "Fixing spirit in its original cavity".

 

Read the preface, there are specific detailed instructions how to breath.

 

you get pointers for what needs to arise and develop, when doing your practice.

[Aletheia]

Right so what was "original cavity" again? I can't remember. The LDT? I'll go and find the study group...

[Aletheia]

The head...

Right, between the eyes I think.

 

Is Foundations of Internal Alchemy a translation of the same text? TY I'm talking about.

Edited April 8, 2017 by Aletheia

[liminal_luke]

Hi Alletheia,

 

I`d like to echo the advice of several others who have suggested you seek out a reputable system and teacher, preferably an in-person one though I believe good online/video instruction exists.  It`s not that I think you are in any particular danger (you might be, I just don`t know), but rather that I believe you are both serious and talented.  Spiritual development seems to be of great interest to you, so I think it`s worth your while to do the groundwork to make sure you`re on a good path.  It can be challenging to find a teacher, depending on your location and financial resources, but given your level of interest I think the effort would be worth it.

[allinone]

https://www.amazon.com/Taoist-Yoga-Kuan-Charles-Luk/dp/0877280673

 

click look in.

[allinone]

also Hindu swamis knowledge,

sushumna, ida and pingala stuff. It has its own ways to test your channels and ways, signs. Is simpler to grasp imho but results are same as Taoist Yoga or any inner alchemy, its universal knowledge. Also go for Buddhist, Bible and other mayor stuff.

 

almost forgot that you have endless quotes from members own translations and awesome quotes from all sorts of texts.

Edited April 8, 2017 by allinone

[Aletheia]

Okay, liminal_luke maybe some time I'll look for a teacher. I think it's probably important especially with real energetic systems where they can actually show you directly that they have qi etc. But I'm not really interested in paying for this stuff or attending classes with a whole load of other people right now. Anyway if I really need help I'm sure I'll find it eventually.

 

 

 

Foundations of Internal Alchemy is a different text; it was written as a sort of summary of the process. Taoist Yoga is an alchemical manual which describes the process through the exercises that is describes. They can be helpful to read together but they are not the same book.

 

Thanks I've actually got both books I just haven't looked at TY because I thought it would be too difficult for me right now. But I suppose I need to start reading it. I've got it here anyway. So I'll see what it says and read through one of the study groups too.

[Aletheia]

I'm honestly totally confused now. I literally have no idea what I'm supposed to be doing. I saw Drew commented on his blog and I can't exactly remember what the comment said but it got me thinking about energy going up the spine. I know my governor channel is open but I don't really feel qi going up there. So I'm wondering if I should be practising the small universe.

 

I suppose I can't really complain right now because I'm guessing I do have good potential for internal alchemy. It's just that what I know is pretty lacking and what I can do seems a bit all over the place regarding basic, medium and advanced abilities. I seem to have bits and pieces everywhere without being able to put it together right now. But it's not the greatest problem in the world. I'm sure I'll get my act together sooner rather than later I hope!

 

I'm at least going to start by breathing in to the LDT for a change because I actually haven't been doing that so I guessing that's a bit of a problem. I'll do that and take it from there for the time being.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Aletheia

[allinone]

your confusion will be easier to manage if you would learn tenets what apply to everything.

 

If you read you need to breath into LDT, then how do you understand that it is LDT you breath into. What is the characteristics of bottom of a breath, it reaches to lower abdomen.

That if you say you going to breath into LDT is same as you would say you going to pick your nose..completely random.

[Aletheia]

Right so this is my daily routine:

 

morning -- rubbing yongquan centres followed by moving yin and yang with some wim hof breathing.

 

daytime -- breathing into the LDT for up to 20 minutes at a time.

 

nighttime -- rubbing yongquan centres followed by moving yin and yang with some wim hof breathing, followed by LDT meditation.

 

And I'll start going through TY book too.

[Aletheia]

What's a good way to finish a meditation? Like take some deep breaths into the LDT, then tap the arms, move head from side to side etc.?

[[email protected]]

'Doin' the MCO and neidan are mutually exclusive. Neidan is a spiritual practice (non fundamentalist) while doing the MCO is fundamentalist BS. I hope that clears things up.

MCO is dealing with the postheaven qi while neidan involves preheaven qi. This is the main difference. Another difference comes from the nature of preheaven and postheaven. Postheaven can be managed by mind while preheaven cannot. And as our mind has limitations, working with postheaven qi might lead to deviations such as wrong root of energy circulation.

Rgrds, Ilya

[Aletheia]

What's a good way to finish a meditation? Like take some deep breaths into the LDT, then tap the arms, move head from side to side etc.?

Okay, I think at the end of the moving yin and yang exercise move hands together at the LDT, left hand closest to the body and breathe into the LDT.

 

Then:

 

rub hands together

 

rub face in circular motion up past the nose and round the outside of the face

 

comb head with fingers from front to back

 

cup hands and tap head from front to back

 

massage ears from top to bottom

 

caps hands and tap arms. first inside then outside

 

tap chest from top to bottom

 

then underarm area

 

interlink fingers and massage stomach in clockwise direction

 

move head from left to right in circular motion 6 times

 

move head from right to left in circular motion 6 times

 

then some bending back stuff!

 

swing from side to side with elbows sticking out

 

then stand up and down on your toes.

 

 

That seems like quite a lot! is there a short version, or what? I honestly don't believe I'll be doing that at the end of my meditations and I don't belief everyone else is doing it either. I suppose it's not too much and can be done quickly.

[Aletheia]

your confusion will be easier to manage if you would learn tenets what apply to everything.

 

If you read you need to breath into LDT, then how do you understand that it is LDT you breath into. What is the characteristics of bottom of a breath, it reaches to lower abdomen.

That if you say you going to breath into LDT is same as you would say you going to pick your nose..completely random.

Breathing, state of mind, focus etc I think I've got. I don't even have to think about those things. It's the other things I'm wondering about along with the theory and how it all fits together that I struggle with I think.

[gendao]

Interesting, so let's recap the progression of this fish story here:

I dropped in on some old friends today as I was passing through the area and it turned out one of them was crying in pain because she had some kind of skin infection. She'd been to the hospital and been prescribed two sets of antibiotics and finished the course, but her leg below the knee was still very badly swollen and purple. She said she'd been in pain for weeks and was moaning in agony and was about to go back to the hospital.

So I said I could try and project some qi and pull out the blocked energy even though I have no training and have never tried such a thing before.

So, I pulled out some energy and threw it on the floor but only at about 7 or 8 places in the leg because I really didn't have much idea about that, I only saw it on a youtube video once tbh. Then I got her to put her leg on a stool and I focused on the heat in the stomach and with my eyes open tried to project qi with the palm of my right hand a few inches away from the leg in to the areas that looked like they most needed it.

She said she could feel the heat pretty quickly and also began to feel very relaxed. The colour started to come back into her leg too and after a while she said she felt no pain for the first time in weeks! After about 1 hour full of maybe 6 4 minutes goes at a time most of the swelling had gone and most of the purple too and she was in a very mellow state with her eyes closed, completely without pain!

I am total amazed by what happened. Although I knew qi is very real and tangible, actually seeing and experiencing its effects first hand for the first time is almost unbelievable, it literally brings tears to my eyes thinking about it!

I called her up and she said her leg is much better. She wasn't really saying much though tbh. So I asked if she could feel the heat yesterday and she said "yes, it's totally crazy."

So, that's all I can say right now -- her leg is better and she definitely felt the heat. That's the only time I've ever tried something like that and I don't really have anything to reference it against within the greater context of things if I'm honest.

I'll try it out again when I get the chance for sure and post about it. I'm going to go to my local yoga school sometime in the next few days. Maybe I'll see if a teacher can feel the qi, or something

EDIT: I did say right at the start we need to take some before and after pictures because the first thing I did was pull some energy out in maybe three places and my friend said the places had turned white while before they were purple. I did see the white bits but wasn't really sure what they looked like previously. But, we didn't end up taking pictures. I did see my friend try and pull out some energy herself after she said something had happened, which I think is quite funny!

Right now it all seems a bit of a blur and I'm not sure what is what to tell the truth. I know for sure I feel the heat and when I put my concentration there and breathe it gets hotter and hotter. If I go to my hands I can feel energy there too like a fizzy drink in the palms. When I first put the heat in my head I instantly felt its effects on my experience of space and time and my consciousness got caught up in my LDT for 6 hours so that's why I joined this forum, because I was wondering how and where I was supposed to store all that energy!

So first, she "definitely" felt your heat and her swelling and purple color receded?

Also I read Drew's last blog post and I'm now wondering if my friend with the bad leg might of had orgasms during the healing and perhaps that's why she went a bit quiet lol. I mention in my post about the healing that I said she went quiet because she was feeling the love energy. When I called her up afterward I asked if she could feel the heat and she said "yes, it's crazy" so now I wonder exactly what does she mean by that 0_o
 
At one point it literally looked like her leg was transforming before my eyes, I'm not even joking. The whole experience is completely nuts.
 
I will go around there sometime and ask what she felt at the time. The thing is she takes drugs and is not always coherent and I don't really want to take drugs right now which will happen if I go around there. Also it's a bit of a trek to get there and I'm not interested in making the journey right now.
 
I'm also interested to know how long the leg had been bad (it was obviously getting worse because she was talking about going to hospital but she didn't have the money for a taxi) and what happened with the health of the leg following the healing.

She was otherwise quiet and didn't offer much on her own, though.  That's probably because...uh...she was too busy having orgasms to talk, DUH!  But when you asked her leading questions...she compliantly validated your valiant efforts/ego in gratitude.  Incidentally, she also happens to be incoherent a lot from drug use... 

Right, I'm going over to my friend's, I just called her up. I think I was on the speaker phone and I said "It's unbelievable isn't it?" and she said "YES!" then someone in the background said "come over quickly so we can hear you talk about philosophy!"

So there you go. I'm pretty sure not only did they witness what happened but they felt it too. Normally after about 45 minutes of my talking about philosophy none stop they tell me to "SHUT UP!" now they're asking me to come over!

Honestly this is why is so incredible because other people experienced it too and to be blunt it was so fucking high level it can't be put into words!

So you can say I'm imagining things and Drew is crazy, but who are you really fooling in the end?

And even her drug buddies were so impressed by your previous healing...that they wanted you to come back and do more healings yap more about philosophy!  Which is what you seemed to do best?

I think it was a mistake to go back to my friend's because I still feel rough as hell from taking drugs.

She said she may well have felt some warmth but it was very much secondary to the relaxation and pain cessation she felt.

She doesn't think all the swelling went away like I was saying.

Also she said she couldn't remember me pulling out energy and her leg changing colour.

So I said to her "you don't remember trying to pull energy out of your leg after you saw it had changed colour while I was doing it?"

and she said "oh, yeah! I forgot about that!"

So, the thing is we were all high AF so maybe the swelling really went down like I believe and her leg did change colour while I was pulling energy from her leg, it was actually her who said that happened at the time because I didn't notice it.

Who knows? and how cares anyway? I really need to focus on getting things right so I can move forward and progress with my practise from here on in.

I read Drew's blog while I was high and he comments on this thread. I'll have to reread what he wrote though.

But now, the expert incoherent witness herself is even disputing all your initial claims...until you prod her again for the "right" answers.  Which she dutifully complies with again to avoid - harshing the vibe before you all pop some more mollies together?

 

Oh yea baby, you were the best!  I quietly came 5X!  And I'm so high I can't even remember my own name!  What's yours?

 

It sure is a funny coinkydink that when the ego stops liking what it hears...it suddenly stops caring.  Right, it doesn't matter anyway...so let's just keep moving right along, folks!

 

And let's go back and start with DO NO PASS GO, DO NOT COLLECT $200, and JOIN THE CLUB, HOMEY?

Edited April 9, 2017 by gendao

[Aletheia]

I read Drew's blog while I was high

 

LMFAO that's a pretty good quote.

 

Well, my friend said when I pulled energy out of her leg it changed colour, so perhaps she has memory problems from taking all the drugs she takes. But it definitely happened. And she said what she mostly experienced was total cessation of pain and complete relaxation. She said she could feel heat too and she even asked me about that during the healing, but when I went back and asked her about it she said that was very much secondary.

 

Actually when I went back I was telling my friends about O's at a D and explaining the workings of "sexual energy" and talking about perverts etc then the hyperrational guy whom I very briefly mentioned in my healing thread walked into the room and he said during the healing he got a big erection! I thought that was hysterical.

 

They love it when I talk about philosophy. I was telling them that the healing shows some of the seemingly woo woo psychic phenomena occurrences in the world are actually real. I was walking them through how it works on a pretty fundamental level and how one has to acclimatise to differing states of space-time beyond the liminal zones of waking consciousness, beyond identification with the mind and even body etc.

 

Anyway, after I wrote about what had happened I went and looked up how a legit healing is done because I had no idea it could be done with the palm of the hand until I did it myself and it turns out what I did is correct method. Probably that's why it worked so well. I don't know!

 

However, as I was saying before I'm totally fine with carrying a charlatan label given to me by doubters. I think it's funny and in any case if I'd spent my life trying to live up to the expectations of others I wouldn't be where I'm at right now.

 

So, Gendao let's hear about some of your high level abilities and the times you had to go looking for explanations for your own personal paranormal skills...

Edited April 9, 2017 by Aletheia

[gendao]

However, as I was saying before I'm totally fine with carrying a charlatan label given to me by doubters. I think it's funny and in any case if I'd spent my life trying to live up to the expectations of others I wouldn't be where I'm at right now.

 

So, Gendao let's hear about some of your high level abilities and the times you had to go looking for explanations for your own personal paranormal skills...

Sure, because this is a (EGO EGO EGO!) competition, right?

 

Anyhow, I wouldn't call you a complete charlatan - just probably overestimating your abilities.  (Which is easy in the initiation.)  But, I do think you have some!

 

As for me, I've had a spectrum of experiences - from peak ecstatic ones to sexual (similar to drew's) to miraculous healings to more mundane healings, etc.  As have many others here too.

 

And from this range of experiences - the most extranormal ones only lasted temporarily, were unintentional, and have not been replicable - whereas the more mundane ones were more consistently at will and permanent in effect...

 

So, I can recognize where you're at in the journey.  Been there, done that.  Now again, you could always be the exception...but time and other indicators tell me you're not.

 

Anyways, at this point - it's probably tempting to try to spiritually bypass your tortured humanity.  It may seem easier to indulge yourself in intellectual pursuits and internet legends - so you don't have to deal with your own deep feels (typical spiritual/mundane, mental/physical Descartes dualism).  But as you go along, you will find that the most relevant, authentic "spirituality" is that concerning your own personal psychological/emotional/physical health - and integrating all of these together.  Which is not fancy or sexy, but dirty and gritty, fairly MUNDANE WORK. 

 

However, these messy organic parts are usually left out of "grad school" neidan books (along with HOW to even achieve their starting points of FULL LOTUS to BEGIN WITH, lol).  Which gives the false impression that they are not even parts of their "process" - usually some clinically-sanitized, generic, paint-by-numbers, infographic template..

 

Years of actual, real-life experience will likely give you a different impression, though!

Edited April 9, 2017 by gendao

[silent thunder]

Okay, I think at the end of the moving yin and yang exercise move hands together at the LDT, left hand closest to the body and breathe into the LDT.

 

Then:

 

rub hands together

 

rub face in circular motion up past the nose and round the outside of the face

 

comb head with fingers from front to back

 

cup hands and tap head from front to back

 

massage ears from top to bottom

 

caps hands and tap arms. first inside then outside

 

tap chest from top to bottom

 

then underarm area

 

interlink fingers and massage stomach in clockwise direction

 

move head from left to right in circular motion 6 times

 

move head from right to left in circular motion 6 times

 

then some bending back stuff!

 

swing from side to side with elbows sticking out

 

then stand up and down on your toes.

 

 

That seems like quite a lot! is there a short version, or what? I honestly don't believe I'll be doing that at the end of my meditations and I don't belief everyone else is doing it either. I suppose it's not too much and can be done quickly.

My Qi Gong teacher heavily and very particularly emphasizes the importance of opening exercises prior to playing with Qi Gong forms and the closing self massage/stretching routine that is done afterward.  

 

The opening is a short, loose movement and stretching routine, quite short, works from the head down to the feet.

 

While the closing/grounding is a highly detailed and comprehensive self massage from top to bottom.   With a very particular order and manner of massaging each area of the face, head and body.  It involves tapping, slapping, poking, sliding, rubbing, thumping, circular massaging and digging the thumbs into very specific locations around the entire body and in a very particular order.

 

He continually emphasizes these are of paramount importance and to never skip them.

[Brian]

My Qi Gong teacher heavily and very particularly emphasizes the importance of opening exercises prior to playing with Qi Gong forms and the closing self massage/stretching routine that is done afterward.

 

The opening is a short, loose movement and stretching routine, quite short, works from the head down to the feet.

 

While the closing/grounding is a highly detailed and comprehensive self massage from top to bottom. With a very particular order and manner of massaging each area of the face, head and body. It involves tapping, slapping, poking, sliding, rubbing, thumping, circular massaging and digging the thumbs into very specific locations around the entire body and in a very particular order.

 

He continually emphasizes these are of paramount importance and to never skip them.

My teacher has similarly emphasized the essential nature of opening and closing -- that the student doesn't have time for (or sincere interest in) the system if the student doesn't have time for the opening and closing.

[Aletheia]

Sure, because this is a (EGO EGO EGO!) competition, right?

 

Anyhow, I wouldn't call you a complete charlatan - just probably overestimating your abilities.  (Which is easy in the initiation.)  But, I do think you have some!

 

As for me, I've had a spectrum of experiences - from peak ecstatic ones to sexual (similar to drew's) to miraculous healings to more mundane healings, etc.  As have many others here too.

 

And from this range of experiences - the most extranormal ones only lasted temporarily, were unintentional, and have not been replicable - whereas the more mundane ones were more consistently at will and permanent in effect...

 

So, I can recognize where you're at in the journey.  Been there, done that.  Now again, you could always be the exception...but time and other indicators tell me you're not.

 

Anyways, at this point - it's probably tempting to try to spiritually bypass your tortured humanity.  It may seem easier to indulge yourself in intellectual pursuits and internet legends - so you don't have to deal with your own deep feels (typical spiritual/mundane, mental/physical Descartes dualism).  But as you go along, you will find that the most relevant, authentic "spirituality" is that concerning your own personal psychological/emotional/physical health - and integrating all of these together.  Which is not fancy or sexy, but dirty and gritty, fairly MUNDANE WORK. 

 

However, these messy organic parts are usually left out of "grad school" neidan books (along with HOW to even achieve their starting points of FULL LOTUS to BEGIN WITH, lol).  Which gives the false impression that they are not even parts of their "process" - usually some clinically-sanitized, generic, paint-by-numbers, infographic template..

 

Years of actual, real-life experience will likely give you a different impression, though!

Haplessly throwing a charge of egoism my way then boneheadedly stampeding through a lingusitic wasteland laced full of autistic dogwhitles, mindless ocular baggage and a singular point-of-view makes me doubt you are what you think you are. No different to the "substantive" metaphysical lacuna found at the voidic heart of Cartesian epistemology really, with its miraculous (read ridiculous) thinking "I" severed from both body and world.

 

I don't believe you can think outside your head is what I claiming.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Aletheia

[Aletheia]

Is what I wrote about closing a meditation okay? Brain, silent thunder, anyone?

 

rub hands together

 

rub face in circular motion up past the nose and round the outside of the face

 

comb head with fingers from front to back

 

cup hands and tap head from front to back

 

massage ears from top to bottom

 

caps hands and tap arms. first inside then outside

 

tap chest from top to bottom

 

then underarm area

 

interlink fingers and massage stomach in clockwise direction

 

move head from left to right in circular motion 6 times

 

move head from right to left in circular motion 6 times

 

then some bending back stuff!

 

swing from side to side with elbows sticking out

 

then stand up and down on your toes

 

WHAT ABOUT HOW TO GET READY FOR A MEDITATION ARE THERE ANY VIDEOS OR ARTICLES ETC?