Old habits that arise after awakening

[dwai]

This is a question for those who have awakened.

 

Even as the sakshi bhav (witness state) is constantly present, old habits/tendencies associated with the body-mind rise. What should we do about that? Let them play out and dissolve on their own? Or forcibly suppress them? Sometimes just being aware of these habits don’t dissolve them and suppressing makes them re-surface after wards with greater intensity. 

 

Though I do notice that these tendencies/habits tend to rise far less frequently as time progresses, they still do. And sometimes they pack a wallop! And they have the power to suck you back into the ego-based identity (even for a brief period of time). 

 

Please share your thoughts.

[MIchael80]

Hi dwai!

 

Yes old patterns arise, because the shift to awakening only kills some karma/conditioning.

the clearing works just before: become aware of the thought story, allow it but do not follow it....then of the emotion underneath it. Allow that emotion, embrasse it, feel it, be with it unconditionally.....it will be digested in its own time. (do not act upon the emotion)

Allow all thoughts and pictures to arise but the emotion is the most crucial part.

Dont worry if the focus narrows down a bit, allow that also, it will help you not getting attached to the awakeness.(which would block further unfolding in consciouness itself).

 

Sometimes you will have to inquire gently (sometimes just with intent and other times with a mental question) to uncover all the drivers.

Being in the awake state makes it possible to clear it all and very deeply....that will transform more than the awakening itself.

 

This process is often called embodiment by modern teachers.

 

Scott KIloby talks a lot about the stuff that comes up after awakening. for a first look here some articles: http://kiloby.com/category/writings/

 

hope that helps

 

all the best

MIchael

Edited April 3, 2017 by MIchael80

[silent thunder]

I don't know that I fit this moniker of awakened, though I have the experience of being opened up on several occasions... like some of the toothpaste has been released from my tube and I wouldn't put it back in, even if I could manage a manner to affect that... 

 

I can speak to old habits and old conditioned responses that are no longer tolerable though... They continually and regularly reappear and for long years, I treated them as failures and grew angsty over them.  I fought them and resisted them and tried to 'put on a good face' and 'fake it til I felt it'... all to little avail.

 

Now I radically accept them and acknowledge them when they arise.  I also release them and don't resist them a bit, (if I have the presence and am able).  Resistance to them just seems to slow their path through my system.  Fighting them brings things to an utter seeming standstill and creates all manner of greater issues than the initial shenpa.

 

Acknowledge, shine awareness on it, and then utterly release it.

 

repeat as often as needed and love yourself mate... you're doing the work and deserve it.

 

edit to add:  to expand a bit on this notion of 'put on a good face'... I am in favor of honesty in all interactions, particularly when in the teachers' role.  Too often I think, I felt this pressure to always present a facade of 'togetherness' and 'having it all down'  which I now reject utterly.  I find it is not beneficial to students or my self.

 

When we don't acknowledge our difficult days and struggles openly, we give the false appearance that we are beyond them and this has a subtle but intense affect on those who look to us for guidance, not to mention the affect it has on us. 

 

When we show no fear at acknowledging our trials, there is an energetic release that happens that opens up avenues of energy that would be devoted to covering, as opposed to used for solution.

Edited April 3, 2017 by silent thunder

[EmeraldHead]

If they bother you overwrite them or increase your concentration till the layer of the mind where they would express in becomes consciouss mind or very close to it. Then you can boss them as you will.

[dwai]

I don't know that I fit this moniker of awakened, though I have the experience of being opened up on several occasions... like some of the toothpaste has been released from my tube and I wouldn't put it back in, even if I could manage a manner to affect that... 

 

I can speak to old habits and old conditioned responses that are no longer tolerable though... They continually and regularly reappear and for long years, I treated them as failures and grew angsty over them.  I fought them and resisted them and tried to 'put on a good face' and 'fake it til I felt it'... all to little avail.

 

Now I radically accept them and acknowledge them when they arise.  I also release them and don't resist them a bit, (if I have the presence and am able).  Resistance to them just seems to slow their path through my system.  Fighting them brings things to an utter seeming standstill and creates all manner of greater issues than the initial shenpa.

 

Acknowledge, shine awareness on it, and then utterly release it.

 

repeat as often as needed and love yourself mate... you're doing the work and deserve it.

 

edit to add:  to expand a bit on this notion of 'put on a good face'... I am in favor of honesty in all interactions, particularly when in the teachers' role.  Too often I think, I felt this pressure to always present a facade of 'togetherness' and 'having it all down'  which I now reject utterly.  I find it is not beneficial to students or my self.

 

When we don't acknowledge our difficult days and struggles openly, we give the false appearance that we are beyond them and this has a subtle but intense affect on those who look to us for guidance, not to mention the affect it has on us. 

 

When we show no fear at acknowledging our trials, there is an energetic release that happens that opens up avenues of energy that would be devoted to covering, as opposed to used for solution.

 

You introduced a new term for me - Shenpa.

 

Found this beautiful article on the subject -- https://www.lionsroar.com/how-we-get-hooked-shenpa-and-how-we-get-unhooked/

 

We call (in sanskrit/indian languages) the shenpa  "Vasanas" and they give rise to "samskaras" (habits). 

 

Wonderful posts all. Thanks... 

[silent thunder]

I really appreciate that term shenpa... emotional barbs or hooks that grab us when someone says something, or something happens and initiate that avalanche of related energies/reactions.

 

I first encountered it through my wife who was intensely reading Pema Chodron at the time.  It has no english equivalent that I've come across yet. 

[dwai]

If they bother you overwrite them or increase your concentration till the layer of the mind where they would express in becomes consciouss mind or very close to it. Then you can boss them as you will.

 

How does this work? Can you explain?

[EmeraldHead]

How does this work? Can you explain?

Are you asking about concentration meditation/practice? If so, personalpowermeditation.com is a pretty good full guide. Practice minimum of one 1 hour daily....45min on busy days

[dwai]

Are you asking about concentration meditation/practice? If so, personalpowermeditation.com is a pretty good full guide. Practice minimum of one 1 hour daily....45min on busy days

 

i mean how does increasing concentration overwrite these tendencies?

[Jeff]

This is a question for those who have awakened.

 

Even as the sakshi bhav (witness state) is constantly present, old habits/tendencies associated with the body-mind rise. What should we do about that? Let them play out and dissolve on their own? Or forcibly suppress them? Sometimes just being aware of these habits don’t dissolve them and suppressing makes them re-surface after wards with greater intensity. 

 

Though I do notice that these tendencies/habits tend to rise far less frequently as time progresses, they still do. And sometimes they pack a wallop! And they have the power to suck you back into the ego-based identity (even for a brief period of time). 

 

Please share your thoughts.

 

 

I do not claim to be awakened, but maybe a few questions to add to your thread...

 

How could what you call the "witness state" be realized/constantly present if old subconscious issues keep popping up?  Doesn't that sort of prove that there is a lot of stuff still going on that you are not yet aware of?  Sort of like there is stuff deeper than your capability to witness?

 

Wouldn't also the fact that just being aware of them and their not dissolving also point to the fact that you are sort of only seeing the tip of the iceberg? That you are not fully aware of the issue parts that are deeper than your conscious mind has noticed?

 

Thanks.

[dwai]

I do not claim to be awakened, but maybe a few questions to add to your thread...

 

How could what you call the "witness state" be realized/constantly present if old subconscious issues keep popping up?  Doesn't that sort of prove that there is a lot of stuff still going on that you are not yet aware of?  Sort of like there is stuff deeper than your capability to witness?

 

Wouldn't also the fact that just being aware of them and their not dissolving also point to the fact that you are sort of only seeing the tip of the iceberg? That you are not fully aware of the issue parts that are deeper than your conscious mind has noticed?

 

Thanks.

IMHO, anyone who is aware of the presence and their mind-body tendencies and patterns is awakened/awakening. 

 

Witness state is being constantly aware of everything that is going on without identification with the goings on. Some thoughts/habits/tendencies are strong and do tend to disrupt the meditation (which should go on constantly, even in sleep). 

 

In my experience, there are shifts that happen away from this presence, when certain triggers arise. And you are absolutely right, there might be something lurking around to be able to affect us this way. I think this is what Michael's post about embodiment refers to (at least one such thing).

 

I won't call them issues per se. They are habits/tendencies (at least in my experience) but they can be very distracting and for a brief period launch me into immersion into the body-mind experiences. It's hard to articulate, but some of these tendencies are still strong and can pull us astray/distract the meditation.

 

They bother me in the sense that they are distracting enough to lose the meditation for a certain period of time. There used to be a time when I'd fall into a cycle of judgement, etc etc. That doesn't seem to happen to me much anymore (there are still triggers and it's not that I've become a psychopath). 

[Jeff]

IMHO, anyone who is aware of the presence and their mind-body tendencies and patterns is awakened/awakening. 

 

Witness state is being constantly aware of everything that is going on without identification with the goings on. Some thoughts/habits/tendencies are strong and do tend to disrupt the meditation (which should go on constantly, even in sleep). 

 

In my experience, there are shifts that happen away from this presence, when certain triggers arise. And you are absolutely right, there might be something lurking around to be able to affect us this way. I think this is what Michael's post about embodiment refers to (at least one such thing).

 

I won't call them issues per se. They are habits/tendencies (at least in my experience) but they can be very distracting and for a brief period launch me into immersion into the body-mind experiences. It's hard to articulate, but some of these tendencies are still strong and can pull us astray/distract the meditation.

 

They bother me in the sense that they are distracting enough to lose the meditation for a certain period of time. There used to be a time when I'd fall into a cycle of judgement, etc etc. That doesn't seem to happen to me much anymore (there are still triggers and it's not that I've become a psychopath). 

 

 

Are those habits/tendencies not some type of stored automated (ego) response to some type of worry?  Or some type of fear based upon some concern?

[Boy]

@dwai:

 

First. Be humble. Even though you have awakened, your jiva will run its program.

 

Two. The parable of the archer. The arrow was already in the air when you realized the Self. Ishvara doesn’t care about your awakening so the arrow will keep on flying and hit its target. Don’t worry about it.

 

Three (and one through three is all the same message). You can’t force it. If you think you can then you didn’t get the memo. You are beyond creation. Just keep on until the knowledge sticks.

 

Four. Don’t listen to Arramu. If you think you are the doer, and that doing will somehow set you free, then you are already lost. Apologies to Arramu.

 

Good luck!

 

@Jeff:

 

Don’t confuse the mind with the ”witness”. It’s as they say - when you know you are the Self, these kinds of questions don’t matter. To answer your questions more precisely: 1) Witnessing is not controlling. What you see, you see through the jiva. It’s said - but it’s hard to grasp - that the Self is not an experiencer. 2) Yes, if by ”you” you mean the jiva. Vedanta speaks of uphadis and it will help you understand the Self to an extent. 3) Yes and no. You confuse the Self with the jiva. This again goes back to the truth of non duality. There is no spoon. 4) Absolutely not. And your question doesn’t make sense 5) We walk in circles. 

 

When you see the truth you’ll know. And when that happens, please get in contact with others who’ve seen it, otherwise you’ll go through being an asshole like me, or even worse - become a ”guru”!

[Jeff]

@Jeff:

 

Don’t confuse the mind with the ”witness”. It’s as they say - when you know you are the Self, these kinds of questions don’t matter. To answer your questions more precisely: 1) Witnessing is not controlling. What you see, you see through the jiva. It’s said - but it’s hard to grasp - that the Self is not an experiencer. 2) Yes, if by ”you” you mean the jiva. Vedanta speaks of uphadis and it will help you understand the Self to an extent. 3) Yes and no. You confuse the Self with the jiva. This again goes back to the truth of non duality. There is no spoon. 4) Absolutely not. And your question doesn’t make sense 5) We walk in circles. 

 

When you see the truth you’ll know. And when that happens, please get in contact with others who’ve seen it, otherwise you’ll go through being an asshole like me, or even worse - become a ”guru”!

 

 

I assume that you are responding to my earlier post with your responses... So I am connecting them to make sure and for some follow up.

 

How could what you call the "witness state" be realized/constantly present if old subconscious issues keep popping up?  

1) Witnessing is not controlling. What you see, you see through the jiva. It’s said - but it’s hard to grasp - that the Self is not an experiencer.

 

Don't see how your response answers my question.  Are you saying the Self is forcing Dwai to have these responses? Kind of like he has no control of anything and is just watching his stuff come up?

 

Doesn't that sort of prove that there is a lot of stuff still going on that you are not yet aware of?

2) Yes, if by ”you” you mean the jiva. Vedanta speaks of uphadis and it will help you understand the Self to an extent.

 

So you are saying the Jiva is in control of Dwai. And Jiva wants to just have these issues and fears manifest?

 

Sort of like there is stuff deeper than your capability to witness?

3) Yes and no. You confuse the Self with the jiva. This again goes back to the truth of non duality. There is no spoon.

 

I take it that this is a continuation of you point that Jiva is doing it all...

 

Wouldn't also the fact that just being aware of them and their not dissolving also point to the fact that you are sort of only seeing the tip of the iceberg?

4) Absolutely not. And your question doesn’t make sense

 

Why not? Is that basically because there really is no person in the first place so nothing ever deeper to notice or perceive?

 

That you are not fully aware of the issue parts that are deeper than your conscious mind has noticed?

 5) We walk in circles. 

 

Don't quite get your response here. Unless you just meant to reiterate the earlier points.

 

Thanks for the discussion.  

[Boy]

First of all let me clear that I only care about Vedanta. If you like to mix and match I am not sure my responses will be helpful.

 

Secondly I answered dwai first and then you. I didn’t think of a potential connection between you two. You added questions and I answered to the best of my ability. And yes, it was to your first post (post #10).

 

Thirdly.. And here it get’s confusing. I will try to make sense of it, but remember that I read your questions as your questions and that they had nothing to do with this character named dwai. That is sort of the crux, since ”dwai” - just like ”me” and ”you” are all jivas. All according to Vedanta (which is the truth ) - so again, if you just have a fleeting interest in Vedanta the following comments may mean very little to you. I’ll go by the question marks!

 

(Also, apologies to dwai if you feels singeled out here. It’s only semantics.)

 

1. Fundamentally yes, but remember: you are the Self. There is no discrete entity named ”Jeff”, ”Boy” or ”dwai”. However, this does not in any way negate the control you have over your own body and mind as an individual/ego. Furthermore, the Self is not a doer, but through Ishvara and the power of Maya things appear to be and happen. Come to think of it, it’s actually quite similar to Plato’s cave. Or you watching a movie - for a moment losing yourself in it, believing you’re the main actor. Or a dream. It’s that simple, but you have to realize it for yourself to remove doubt.

 

2. No. ”dwai”, ”you” and ”I” are the jivas - normal folks with free(ish) will. Then there’s the idea that there couldn’t be any free will because of cause and effect etc, and that might represent Ishvara - the totality/creation. And then there’s the Self/Brahman/Parabrahman etc. which is signalled by your subjective realization that everything you can possibly perceive cannot be not you. This is not mysticism or magic. Just the truth.

 

3. Again, the jiva is just (the apparent) you. Nothing spooky.

 

4. No no. We all have an unconscious side to us (as normal people/jivas). We don’t know everything about ourselves and we probably never will. The point is that from the perspective of the jiva - which is all we have go on as humans - we are limited (uphadis!) but from the perspective of the Self we perceive everything. When we see it

 

5. Yes I believe so. Reiterating.

 

Ok, i did as best I could. (Please come back if I missed something essential!) Your questions are well founded, but they go into a kind of nitty gritty that is unnecessary if you want self realization. I went through hell myself, so I surely sympathize, but.. words are just pointers. You need to see that you are not who you think you are. When you do, it will all become clear. And if you’re better with words than me, perhaps you could pass it along. Normally I’ll just refer to sruti.

 

Nonetheless - Thank you Jeff! Much love!

[Jeff]

First of all let me clear that I only care about Vedanta. If you like to mix and match I am not sure my responses will be helpful.

 

Secondly I answered dwai first and then you. I didn’t think of a potential connection between you two. You added questions and I answered to the best of my ability. And yes, it was to your first post (post #10).

 

Thirdly.. And here it get’s confusing. I will try to make sense of it, but remember that I read your questions as your questions and that they had nothing to do with this character named dwai. That is sort of the crux, since ”dwai” - just like ”me” and ”you” are all jivas. All according to Vedanta (which is the truth ) - so again, if you just have a fleeting interest in Vedanta the following comments may mean very little to you. I’ll go by the question marks!

 

(Also, apologies to dwai if you feels singeled out here. It’s only semantics.)

 

1. Fundamentally yes, but remember: you are the Self. There is no discrete entity named ”Jeff”, ”Boy” or ”dwai”. However, this does not in any way negate the control you have over your own body and mind as an individual/ego. Furthermore, the Self is not a doer, but through Ishvara and the power of Maya things appear to be and happen. Come to think of it, it’s actually quite similar to Plato’s cave. Or you watching a movie - for a moment losing yourself in it, believing you’re the main actor. Or a dream. It’s that simple, but you have to realize it for yourself to remove doubt.

 

2. No. ”dwai”, ”you” and ”I” are the jivas - normal folks with free(ish) will. Then there’s the idea that there couldn’t be any free will because of cause and effect etc, and that might represent Ishvara - the totality/creation. And then there’s the Self/Brahman/Parabrahman etc. which is signalled by your subjective realization that everything you can possibly perceive cannot be not you. This is not mysticism or magic. Just the truth.

 

3. Again, the jiva is just (the apparent) you. Nothing spooky.

 

4. No no. We all have an unconscious side to us (as normal people/jivas). We don’t know everything about ourselves and we probably never will. The point is that from the perspective of the jiva - which is all we have go on as humans - we are limited (uphadis!) but from the perspective of the Self we perceive everything. When we see it

 

5. Yes I believe so. Reiterating.

 

Ok, i did as best I could. (Please come back if I missed something essential!) Your questions are well founded, but they go into a kind of nitty gritty that is unnecessary if you want self realization. I went through hell myself, so I surely sympathize, but.. words are just pointers. You need to see that you are not who you think you are. When you do, it will all become clear. And if you’re better with words than me, perhaps you could pass it along. Normally I’ll just refer to sruti.

 

Nonetheless - Thank you Jeff! Much love!

Thank you for your thoughtful explanation. No worries on Dwai, I was also just using his name as a generic (sorry Dwai). And yes, I am sort of a nitty-gritty kind of guy... One of my failings, I am infinitely curious...

 

More love

[Bindi]

Hi dwai!

 

Yes old patterns arise, because the shift to awakening only kills some karma/conditioning.

the clearing works just before: become aware of the thought story, allow it but do not follow it....then of the emotion underneath it. Allow that emotion, embrasse it, feel it, be with it unconditionally.....it will be digested in its own time. (do not act upon the emotion)

Allow all thoughts and pictures to arise but the emotion is the most crucial part.

Dont worry if the focus narrows down a bit, allow that also, it will help you not getting attached to the awakeness.(which would block further unfolding in consciouness itself).

 

Sometimes you will have to inquire gently (sometimes just with intent and other times with a mental question) to uncover all the drivers.

Being in the awake state makes it possible to clear it all and very deeply....that will transform more than the awakening itself.

 

This process is often called embodiment by modern teachers.

 

Scott KIloby talks a lot about the stuff that comes up after awakening. for a first look here some articles: http://kiloby.com/category/writings/

 

hope that helps

 

all the best

MIchael

It's good to see this issue being tackled directly by Scott Kiloby, it looks like he's doing some good work around it.

 

Still it seems harder to do it this way around - 'awaken' and remove self-will (as in the emailed question here http://kiloby.com/the-essence-of-embodiment/ )and then have to work on the 'embodied' problems while feeling lethargic about it, instead of working on the embodied issues first while the will remains strong, and once they are resolved then 'awakening'.

 

This to me is a very good reason to start work on the LDT first, not last.

[C T]

Whenever we attend teachings, our teacher, whom i consider to be enlightened, never fails to remind us never to get overly excited when we make progress in our practice, nor get overly frustrated when the progress is halted by some obstacle or other.

 

He further explained that patience is a very important quality to cultivate, generally, as well as specifically for those who have moved on to a spiritual path. In cultivating patience, according to his view, the most effective approach is to suffuse our sense of attainment and also 'failures' with sufficient humour and light-heartedness. He said those who dont take themselves too seriously tend to make swifter progress than those who appear to be too serious (whenever he talks about this subject, at this point, he likes to make a serious scowling face, and then breaks into a belly laugh!) - putting up the appearance of seriousness, which he said many of his students tend to portray whenever he is around, is not really conducive for cultivating 2 of six excellent virtues of the Paramitas, namely Viriya parami and Khanti parami. 

 

Viriya parami has to do with increasing energy, diligence, vigour and effort, while Khanti parami is the training that leads to the virtues of heightened tolerance, forbearance, patience, endurance and acceptance.

 

He further emphasised that Paramita number one points to generosity. Whenever this generosity is mentioned, students will think of charity and making sacrifices for others, but he said that while that is partly correct, the primary objective of developing this paramita of generosity (Skt. Dana parami) is to loosen self-grasping, which means to say that if we wish to overcome negative mind states by reaching out towards Viriya and Khanti paramis, like a pea shoot reaching towards the pervasive warmth of the sun, then Dana (generosity) parami is symbolic of that warmth. This is the foundation.

 

He concludes that the remainder three Paramitas act to support us, much like water, healthy soil, and Co2 act to support the natural growth of that pea shoot. Its a very symbiotic process how the pea shoot just allows the process to happen. Likewise, he said, if we simply concentrate on developing the necessary qualities of the Paramitas as those mentioned above, then we are also like that pea shoot, allowing the process of progress to unfold in its own time without us meddling with it unnecessarily.

 

To avoid interference, we have to lessen our tendency to be overly critical (serious face again) and conceptual - the approach or attitude needed to achieve this is to bring some humour into the practice, he laughingly said. 

 

Whenever i hit some kind of a static, stubborn invisible block, i will recall the above advice of my beloved teacher. To me, it makes a lot of sense, and inspires me to remain cheerful and expansive.

 

I hope you can find some joyful inspiration in this too. 

 

 

 

 

edit to add 'it'

Edited April 4, 2017 by C T

[dwai]

[dwai]

[dwai]

Whenever we attend teachings, our teacher, whom i consider to be enlightened, never fails to remind us never to get overly excited when we make progress in our practice, nor get overly frustrated when the progress is halted by some obstacle or other.

 

He further explained that patience is a very important quality to cultivate, generally, as well as specifically for those who have moved on to a spiritual path. In cultivating patience, according to his view, the most effective approach is to suffuse our sense of attainment and also 'failures' with sufficient humour and light-heartedness. He said those who dont take themselves too seriously tend to make swifter progress than those who appear to be too serious (whenever he talks about this subject, at this point, he likes to make a serious scowling face, and then breaks into a belly laugh!) - putting up the appearance of seriousness, which he said many of his students tend to portray whenever he is around, is not really conducive for cultivating 2 of six excellent virtues of the Paramitas, namely Viriya parami and Khanti parami.

 

Viriya parami has to do with increasing energy, diligence, vigour and effort, while Khanti parami is the training that leads to the virtues of heightened tolerance, forbearance, patience, endurance and acceptance.

 

He further emphasised that Paramita number one points to generosity. Whenever this generosity is mentioned, students will think of charity and making sacrifices for others, but he said that while that is partly correct, the primary objective of developing this paramita of generosity (Skt. Dana parami) is to loosen self-grasping, which means to say that if we wish to overcome negative mind states by reaching out towards Viriya and Khanti paramis, like a pea shoot reaching towards the pervasive warmth of the sun, then Dana (generosity) parami is symbolic of that warmth. This is the foundation.

 

He concludes that the remainder three Paramitas act to support us, much like water, healthy soil, and Co2 act to support the natural growth of that pea shoot. Its a very symbiotic process how the pea shoot just allows the process to happen. Likewise, he said, if we simply concentrate on developing the necessary qualities of the Paramitas as those mentioned above, then we are also like that pea shoot, allowing the process of progress to unfold in its own time without us meddling with it unnecessarily.

 

To avoid interference, we have to lessen our tendency to be overly critical (serious face again) and conceptual - the approach or attitude needed to achieve this is to bring some humour into the practice, he laughingly said.

 

Whenever i hit some kind of a static, stubborn invisible block, i will recall the above advice of my beloved teacher. To me, it makes a lot of sense, and inspires me to remain cheerful and expansive.

 

I hope you can find some joyful inspiration in this too.

 

 

 

 

edit to add 'it'

Thank you. It resonates strongly with me.

[dwai]

First of all let me clear that I only care about Vedanta. If you like to mix and match I am not sure my responses will be helpful.

Secondly I answered dwai first and then you. I didn’t think of a potential connection between you two. You added questions and I answered to the best of my ability. And yes, it was to your first post (post #10).

Thirdly.. And here it get’s confusing. I will try to make sense of it, but remember that I read your questions as your questions and that they had nothing to do with this character named dwai. That is sort of the crux, since ”dwai” - just like ”me” and ”you” are all jivas. All according to Vedanta (which is the truth ) - so again, if you just have a fleeting interest in Vedanta the following comments may mean very little to you. I’ll go by the question marks!

(Also, apologies to dwai if you feels singeled out here. It’s only semantics.)

1. Fundamentally yes, but remember: you are the Self. There is no discrete entity named ”Jeff”, ”Boy” or ”dwai”. However, this does not in any way negate the control you have over your own body and mind as an individual/ego. Furthermore, the Self is not a doer, but through Ishvara and the power of Maya things appear to be and happen. Come to think of it, it’s actually quite similar to Plato’s cave. Or you watching a movie - for a moment losing yourself in it, believing you’re the main actor. Or a dream. It’s that simple, but you have to realize it for yourself to remove doubt.

2. No. ”dwai”, ”you” and ”I” are the jivas - normal folks with free(ish) will. Then there’s the idea that there couldn’t be any free will because of cause and effect etc, and that might represent Ishvara - the totality/creation. And then there’s the Self/Brahman/Parabrahman etc. which is signalled by your subjective realization that everything you can possibly perceive cannot be not you. This is not mysticism or magic. Just the truth.

3. Again, the jiva is just (the apparent) you. Nothing spooky.

4. No no. We all have an unconscious side to us (as normal people/jivas). We don’t know everything about ourselves and we probably never will. The point is that from the perspective of the jiva - which is all we have go on as humans - we are limited (uphadis!) but from the perspective of the Self we perceive everything. When we see it

5. Yes I believe so. Reiterating.

Ok, i did as best I could. (Please come back if I missed something essential!) Your questions are well founded, but they go into a kind of nitty gritty that is unnecessary if you want self realization. I went through hell myself, so I surely sympathize, but.. words are just pointers. You need to see that you are not who you think you are. When you do, it will all become clear. And if you’re better with words than me, perhaps you could pass it along. Normally I’ll just refer to sruti.

Nonetheless - Thank you Jeff! Much love!

In viveka chudamani, Adi Shankara talks about Pramada. He gives an example of a ball that starts rolling down a staircase. Once it gains momentum it is most difficult to catch up with it. It typically stops once it reaches the lowest step (and no where else's to roll down to). He then advises the sadhaka to beware of pramada, wherein we lose focus of our Self for but an innocent moment and thus begins a cycle of falling like the ball. If we aren't vigilant and constantly checking ourselves (ego mind-body), we run the risk of falling so far below that it might not be possible to climb back up in this lifetime. So he warns, for a sadhaka, pramada is worse than death.

 

 

This is looming large for me. If we give up the constant awareness/sakshi bhava, we might end up becoming like that ball and roll all the way back out of presence. So the question of how to deal with vasanas and associated samskaras in that context.

 

My friends/teachers said we should not fight these things. If it is a need, fulfill it and move on. If it is a want, be careful. Because once we fulfill a need, we don't crave more. When we fulfill a want, it creates more craving.

 

Once the deed has been done (whatever it might be), we should analyze without attachment why it arose. If we find out why it arose, it will dissolve under the analysis.

[Spotless]

If you have Awakened then in a sense all the floors, walls and ceilings fall away - particularly for a good 6 months to 2 years.

 

Most positions are gone - most attachment is gone - a general OKness is with you and impending doom and longing excitement are gone - suffering is gone.

 

But - some bits here and there will be found to still be there somewhat in one piece. And also certain grooves - well worn grooves of emotional habit remain. You are not in them and no longer really identified with them but some subtle resistive patterns can suddenly electrify into these grooves and a level of flare up can happen.

 

It is surprising because you are not in these groves anymore - the mind does not rehearse anymore - mind loops do not constantly have these grooves keyed in and at the ready - so when one suddenly pops up a bit it is now very different.

 

The flare up can be fairly huge - but oddly it generally subsides and is completely gone within minutes - whereas it may have taken days to get over before. There is no "getting over" because you are not really a part of it - though it definitely took place and the body can feel red and burning.

 

In general in my case and I assume most the energy levels are radically increased though the calmness and stillness is even more so. One does not feel like exploding - but a vast resource is available. Most of the time even a slight veer to former inclinations are effortlessly in control and without attachment of any kind - and they may be fully a part of the day - we don't suddenly change our entire diet and we don't change our accent or shoe size.

 

At almost the same time I awoke I started Qi Gong - it has been a blessing for health and burning up residual patterns. Upon Awakening there was no interest in meditation or in any seeking of any kind - some meditation came later here and there - but more often than not it was simply sitting in the radiance of stillness and overwhelming gratitude.

 

The form of Qi Gong I do is apparently very yang - it is superb in breaking up any and all unnatural patterns - physical, emotional and spiritual. It is also superb in fostering and strengthening natural patterns and in growing all bodies in great beautiful refined light.

(It may be that most Qi Gong does this - I do not know)

 

Yoga would certainly have the same capabilities - my definition of Yoga is about 90% meditation and 10 % posture work - it may be that a modification of this would be excellent for residual work post Awakening. Part of what Qi Gong works on is the nadis and refined inner energetic blocks - Yoga does this also - though meditation is key pre-awakening and perhaps not so much post awakening. (My practice was primarily Raja yoga when I practiced it).

 

It has been about five years now since Awakening and I have practiced and then recently also teach Qi Gong 4-6 days a week and it has been interesting to see residuals appear that I did not know were still there and then vanish with no effort other than doing Qi Gong.

 

I have noticed that if I become aware of something and think it prior to class, it is very apt to vanish by the end of class.

 

About one year after Awakening I noticed "i" still harbored ill feelings toward my father - something quite well known to my friends of the past and family of the present. The awareness of this was surprising - it came to me before a class one day. Then several weeks later the subject of my father came up and all position had vanished - there were simply no ill feelings at all - the entire memory was level and harbored no ill will or position - it was clean and pleasant.

 

It has also become apparent that the proverbial "shit" can hit the fan and I do not feel the shit of it - I am not numb to it or indifferent - it is what it is and my world is unaffected by it. But the effect it has on others (shit hitting the fan) can be difficult to be around - the buzzing and mind looping that takes place is like walking around spikes and gum on the carpet - just not particularly enjoyable to be around and it is what will continue until (the shit hits the fan less) things settle down.

 

It is not at all surprising to see that a great number of Awakened individuals leave their family - at least for a time - or radical changes take place within it often including long breaks from it. The family dynamic changes overnight - and if one settles into Awakening and abides in it - the frazzle does not come back - but the family still lives in it - the vast majority of the world lives in it.

 

For the newly Awakened - we need to see how it took place and when:

 

If it was turned on so to speak by a teacher or in an "experience" then it may not be something that will stick so easily and one may revert back easily - the tip of reversal is participation in the frazzle of "doing" in order to prevent (resist) what appears to be the old you coming back - and walla you are back in the frazzle.

 

Hopefully the falling away of you and the emergence of Divine Essence will have you sit into the stillness and simply be until such time as you have some acclimation. It is providence - and pressing issues of the former you can take it all away in moments.

 

If you feel a slight buzz of frazzle - do not participate in it - go to stillness. If you have not done much sitting meditation then sitting and being with the stillness may actually bore you (until it does not). This is where so many factors come into play - such as the other subtle bodies - if you have not refined yourself much then a great deal of what is happening (happened) does not fully interface within embodiment - and so "you don't get it" in a foundational restructuring way - it flings over to conceptual wonder and then frazzle comes back and doing sets in and its over and you now can talk about some of what it is like.

 

It should be abundantly clear (post Awakening) that subduing outbursts or sublimating them or covering them or putting lids on them or letting go of them is not what you do now - breath into the stillness and if anything - thank Buddha nature - thank god - thank the universe. You are not in the frazzle fix heal worry zone - you simply are not there anymore. Simply seeing it happen and then abiding in stillness breaks up the refuge energy has in those old grooves - it becomes more and more nonsensical and less and less frequent and of a shorter and shorted duration.

 

For some the post Awakening energies are so strong and the lightness and freedom from fear and frazzle is so enthralling that they embody their residual patterns with added gumption and this can bring them to considerable complication in subsequent teaching and with students - but this often changes and often it does not.

 

It is also possible to seep into Oneness or land there solidly without Awakening - but thinking one has Awoken. This then is a phase in and out of the illusion but not actually Awake - for those that arrived here first and later Awoke it is often a very big surprise. If this is the case then it can explain in and out phasing more easily.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Spotless

[MIchael80]

It's good to see this issue being tackled directly by Scott Kiloby, it looks like he's doing some good work around it.

 

Still it seems harder to do it this way around - 'awaken' and remove self-will (as in the emailed question here http://kiloby.com/the-essence-of-embodiment/ )and then have to work on the 'embodied' problems while feeling lethargic about it, instead of working on the embodied issues first while the will remains strong, and once they are resolved then 'awakening'.

 

This to me is a very good reason to start work on the LDT first, not last.

Hi Bindi!

 

Yes, Scott does a wonderful work!

 

Self will is gone for a while in ones perception, but if there is openness a curiousity is there and this work will continue. After awakening there is this okness as spotless called it but the curiousity will come back if one does not cling to "being done".

 

almaas with his daimond approach talks a lot about this and calls it endless enlightenment.

there are phases where it feels like one is never going to to do any inner work again, but then it comes back. :-)

 

A lot of the lack of will to do inner work after awakening does not come from the fact that self will is gone (it actually re-emerges in an integrated way) but just comes from resistance to what is in this body mind vehicle. (just like before awakening)

Scott told me that he has met awakened people who bypassed their emotions with the thought "i accept everything as it is".

 

but as you said, it is good to start with this work as soon as possible, because the rewards are endlessly enriching. I suggest sort of a combination of Scott Kilobys approach and that of Michael Brown (the presence process) with a little of Almaas diamond approach inquiry for a start and over time it developes by itself for oneself in the best way possible.

 

All the best

Michael

Edited April 4, 2017 by MIchael80

[allinone]

What about broken teeth being replaced with new ones?

 

If there is no tooth there still is nerve connection to jaw, neck and body, hand. The place where tooth used to be doesn't die, it will still capable to produce nerve pain.

 

Love and light may shine onto you, as well more critical thinking!! Namaste, hello, goodbae, sayonara, good thoughts for you at night.