Old habits that arise after awakening

[allinone]

Was Ramana Maharshi awakened?

[doc benway]

This is a question for those who have awakened.

 

Even as the sakshi bhav (witness state) is constantly present, old habits/tendencies associated with the body-mind rise. What should we do about that? Let them play out and dissolve on their own? Or forcibly suppress them? Sometimes just being aware of these habits don’t dissolve them and suppressing makes them re-surface after wards with greater intensity. 

 

Though I do notice that these tendencies/habits tend to rise far less frequently as time progresses, they still do. And sometimes they pack a wallop! And they have the power to suck you back into the ego-based identity (even for a brief period of time). 

 

Please share your thoughts.

 

The short answer is that we should do nothing about these experiences provided we are strong enough and awake enough.

Open the heart fully to the patterns and feelings and rest in the knowledge of the true self.

The patterns are transitory states that will pass.

If they do not pass it is because you are contributing something - either holding on or pushing away at some level.

 

They may not dissolve in a day. 

Like an old diploma rolled up for years, when unrolled it will spring back into a cylinder. 

These patterns have been established over years, decades, lifetimes.

 

If they do not pass and come back with more power, it does not mean that resting and allowing doesn't work, it is that we are not aware or skillful enough, not patient enough, not awake enough, not really resting. After all, it is the one who is resting that is responsible for all troubles - if they truly rest there can be no conflict. Our reaction to such patterns can go very deep and subtle. We may think we are allowing and yet we are actually repressing or suppressing. This is a lifetime practice.

 

Early on along the path we may not have the courage, patience, skill, and awareness to simply observe and allow. in that case, it is far better to intervene skillfully than to act in such a way that is detrimental to self and others. Hence the value of rituals, mantras, antidotes, formal meditation practice, pujas, and all the rest. 

 

When we are mature enough in our practice, all effort simply becomes a reinforcement of the illusion that there is someone there to be affected, someone there to intervene. At this level the practice becomes one of non-intervention. In the dzogchen tradition, this is known as trekchod - cutting through. Whatever comes, we rest in the nature of mind - that is the entire practice. The critical point is that we are resting in the correct place.

 

At first we do this during formal practice only. As we get stronger, we bring it into our waking lives. Eventually we bring it into our dreaming and sleeping lives. Then we hopefully bring it to our death. 

 

A common misconception is that this is the same as nihilism or utter inactivity. Not true at all. It is more that the one who is confused simply gets out of the way. What comes of that is whatever any given situation requires. One does nothing and yet nothing is left undone. 

[doc benway]

It took Ramana 3 years after awakening to enter back into society, to integrate and process what was happening to him where he lived alone in a cave. It could well be that he was dealing with his residual preferences and habits during this period.

 

I would propose that one really cannot deal with all of the residual preferences and habits until one is again subjected to their influences, after returning to society. In fact, that is when integration occurs.

 

I suspect Ramana rested in that cave in order to thoroughly experience, investigate, and stabilize his realization in order that it would be strong and stable enough to withstand the challenges of integration.

[Bindi]

Ramana Maharshi had the quirk of not wasting even a morsel of food. 

 

​"Moksha does not mean physical separation from all worldly affairs, but only a state of mind bereft of all impure Vasanas or clinging to worldly things, but yet working as usual amidst them. You must realise God in and through the world. This is the central teaching of the Gita." http://www.sivanandaonline.org/public_html/?cmd=displaysection&section_id=884

 

Was this quirk of not wasting a morsel of food an old habit resurfacing, or a new respect that developed after his 'awakening', a 'realising of God in and through the world'?

Edited April 5, 2017 by Bindi

[Bindi]

Ramana Maharshi was in what is called Kevala Sahaja Nirvikalpa Samadhi. Far more people do reach Kevala Sahaja Savikalpa Samadhi. From there to where Ramana was, is not in anyone's control, it happens if it has to happen. That's what I've been told.

 

It's not a matter of setting the bar high or low for that. Getting there becomes a matter of grace. 

 

Doesn't believing 'it happens if it has to happen' somewhat nullify your original question? Wouldn't the correct response to your original question then be 'do nothing, it is a matter of grace'?

[Gerard]

Though I do notice that these tendencies/habits tend to rise far less frequently as time progresses, they still do. And sometimes they pack a wallop! And they have the power to suck you back into the ego-based identity (even for a brief period of time).

Have you tried increasing the amount of time you meditate every day?

 

Eventually you'll have to meditate day and night non-stop to fully remove them. In other words, full-time practice excluding everything else.

 

Best

[Spotless]

I don't deny it's possible, but I don't see much evidence of it in the lives of most regular folk. The flip side of it is setting the bar so high that you write off all that is in between as insignificant.

 

But the way I see awakening is that it is more like the first step towards enlightenment rather than the last step. Before that we are mostly just pinging about in our minds. After awakening the ability to repress and control our experience is greatly reduced so all that is within us which we have denied and kept down starts to come up , so old habits and issues can even get worse for a time.

 

But take for example someone like Byron Katie, she developed her work method after she woke up as a means to deal with all the beliefs and blocks which were there after awakening, not before. She didn't wake up all at once in entirety, rather the core sense of separation fell away but there were still all sorts of beliefs and pockets of "I" still left over. She said it took her over two years after awakening just to process all the beliefs she had around her mother. She was still awake even though she had all these blocks and issues still inside of her at that time which would temporarily take her out of the awareness of being awake.

This sounds like a good example of Oneness occurring first and then later Awakening. Oneness is not Awakening and often comes on somewhat slowly - the core sense of separation falls away - this is exactly what happens in Oneness. This is not the major effect of Awakening with all sorts of beliefs and "I"s still left over - but definitely what is found in Oneness if it occurs first.

Oneness is a small step by comparison.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Spotless

[Spotless]

Awakening can be viewed as a first step - but it is a big step and the end of suffering.

 

That used to be considered a pretty big step.

 

The residuals left over from what I would term a real Awakening - not an Awakening Experience - are actually few in number and beliefs in general have dropped off like dead flyies.

 

I have not heard of Awakening happening "slowly" - I have only heard of Oneness taking place over time and people mistaking Oneness for Awakening.

[dwai]

Doesn't believing 'it happens if it has to happen' somewhat nullify your original question? Wouldn't the correct response to your original question then be 'do nothing, it is a matter of grace'?

I needed some reminders about "not doing". We all do. That's why we have satsang

Edited April 6, 2017 by dwai

[dwai]

Have you tried increasing the amount of time you meditate every day?

 

Eventually you'll have to meditate day and night non-stop to fully remove them. In other words, full-time practice excluding everything else.

 

Best

Thanks Gerard. Now I'm meditating almost all the time. Not dedicated seated meditation but by remaining in the witness awareness (called sakshi bhava).

 

I do about 2-3 hrs of Taichi and neigong everyday. But even in that I maintain witness state.

[Spotless]

I would propose that one really cannot deal with all of the residual preferences and habits until one is again subjected to their influences, after returning to society. In fact, that is when integration occurs.

 

I suspect Ramana rested in that cave in order to thoroughly experience, investigate, and stabilize his realization in order that it would be strong and stable enough to withstand the challenges of integration.

I can say with certainty that he did not sit in the cave in order to do anything - it is an absolutely momentous shift - it knocks speech and movement from under your feet - there is nothing what so ever to do.

 

Integration is taking place immediately - it is only integration in the sense that you are floating in non-inertia. Inertia was what the "you' the "seeker" that is no longer was. Integration is into the stillness that is what one is - Divine Essence.

 

If one is not constantly in a cave one is generally sitting frequently for very long periods of time. For at least two years I constantly just sat in a chair, or in my car in a parking lot or pulled over to the side of the road. Other than going to Qi Gong, picking up my son, eating and some very minimal running of a business that runs itself - I was constantly dropped to my knees in gratitude, stillness and the light - and constant massive energy expansions which continue constantly to this day some 5 years later. I still constantly am pulled to just sit in stillness.

 

One is not 'figuring" things out at this time - one is not preparing - it is so completely the polar opposite of this. One is doing nothing.

 

As the bodies expand into this, happening eventually takes place - re-integration into society is a piece of cake - their is no angst, no future worrying, no sense of urgency. Others are in it - the illusion - it is odd to see this and it is odd to find oneself in a family with a business the dynamics of which have completely changed. But it is not hard at all - it may require work for money etc., but in the Nowness it is simply zero problem - even if things are "difficult".

 

If one were to lose ones family, fortune and friends - that would be no problem - it would not be painful - not because of numbness but because if this were to occur it is for the best - not a sense of loss - one is not in the past.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Spotless

[Spotless]

I have difficulty with the "not in the past" thing. In some ways, I understand it. But, at the same time, I've acquired a type of re-conditioning. Even if I might not have too much of a reaction (I've been berated in the past for being robotic), I tend to pick things up and amplify them rather than leave them as they are. It was done mostly to accommodate people who find my lack of expressiveness to be a problem.

 

Though it can take place in the interstices of different mind things, it is still a step that I am conscious of.

Attachment is "in" the past. Inherently past.

[Spotless]

I think I see....

 

A matter of disposition rather than action....if the words can fit.

 

"dis-position" instead of "disposition".

I am not clear on what you mean above but in other words - if you have an attachment - it is to the illusion of something that has already taken place - your life force is in past inertia with "it".

[Bindi]

I needed some reminders about "not doing". We all do. That's why we have satsang

 

 

"Those who, when attachment has ceased, have attained jñāna-siddhi [accomplishment of self-knowledge] in this very life by the power of God’s grace without any effort by the blemishless cat principle, will have strived in former lives like a monkey." – Ramana Maharshi

The ‘cat principle’ or mārjāla nyāya is the principle of depending upon, yearning for and yielding oneself to the power of divine grace for salvation, like a kitten who makes no effort to move to safety but passively allows itself to be carried by its mother, whereas the ‘monkey principle’ or markaṭa nyāya is the principle of striving to cling firmly to God, like a baby monkey who clings firmly to its mother for safety. These are two analogies that are used to describe two alternative forms of devotion (bhakti), but in terms of Bhagavan’s teachings the mārjāla nyāya represents the final stage of the path of complete self-surrender, which is the culmination of self-investigation (ātma-vicāra), whereas the markaṭa nyāya represents the effort that we need to make to cling firmly to self-attentiveness. As Bhagavan teaches us in this verse, those who are able to succeed in surrendering themselves effortlessly, as he did, would have previously strived with intense effort to cling tenaciously to self-attentiveness, because only by striving thus can we attain the bhakti (love) and vairāgya (freedom from attachment) that is required in order for us to be able to surrender ourself entirely.

http://happinessofbeing.blogspot.com.au/2016/03/why-is-it-necessary-to-make-effort-to.html

​

[C T]

I'd rather take responsibility for my own emancipation and work accordingly. 

[dwai]

This is a long video but it seems relevant to this conversation (and many such others we seem to be having off late).

 

[Bindi]

I can say with certainty that he did not sit in the cave in order to do anything - it is an absolutely momentous shift - it knocks speech and movement from under your feet - there is nothing what so ever to do.

 

Integration is taking place immediately - it is only integration in the sense that you are floating in non-inertia. Inertia was what the "you' the "seeker" that is no longer was. Integration is into the stillness that is what one is - Divine Essence.

 

If one is not constantly in a cave one is generally sitting frequently for very long periods of time. For at least two years I constantly just sat in a chair, or in my car in a parking lot or pulled over to the side of the road. Other than going to Qi Gong, picking up my son, eating and some very minimal running of a business that runs itself - I was constantly dropped to my knees in gratitude, stillness and the light - and constant massive energy expansions which continue constantly to this day some 5 years later. I still constantly am pulled to just sit in stillness.

 

One is not 'figuring" things out at this time - one is not preparing - it is so completely the polar opposite of this. One is doing nothing.

 

As the bodies expand into this, happening eventually takes place - re-integration into society is a piece of cake - their is no angst, no future worrying, no sense of urgency. Others are in it - the illusion - it is odd to see this and it is odd to find oneself in a family with a business the dynamics of which have completely changed. But it is not hard at all - it may require work for money etc., but in the Nowness it is simply zero problem - even if things are "difficult".

 

If one were to lose ones family, fortune and friends - that would be no problem - it would not be painful - not because of numbness but because if this were to occur it is for the best - not a sense of loss - one is not in the past.

 

Yours is a very stern awakening...

 

I explained that I had come here in the wake of my dear friend dying. I said that I understood the body was but a temporary abode, but no matter how many spiritual words I heard I still feel such sadness. Kannan said something to me then that I loved to hear, that even Ramana Maharshi experienced such sadness and shed tears for those who died, even though he knew that we were all eternal. This was very touching to hear. Ramana Maharshi cried too. 

 

http://susiewoo.weebly.com/tiruvannamalai.html

 

 

Now when Mary came to where Jesus was and saw him, she fell at his feet, saying to him, ^t“Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.” ³³ When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come with her also weeping, he ^uwas deeply moved⁵ in his spirit and ^vgreatly troubled. ³⁴ And he said, “Where have you laid him?” They said to him, “Lord, come and see.” ^35 wJesus wept. ³⁶ So the Jews said, “See ^xhow he loved him!”

John 11 32-36

Edited April 6, 2017 by Bindi

[Spotless]

Yours is a very stern awakening...

 

I explained that I had come here in the wake of my dear friend dying. I said that I understood the body was but a temporary abode, but no matter how many spiritual words I heard I still feel such sadness. Kannan said something to me then that I loved to hear, that even Ramana Maharshi experienced such sadness and shed tears for those who died, even though he knew that we were all eternal. This was very touching to hear. Ramana Maharshi cried too.

 

http://susiewoo.weebly.com/tiruvannamalai.html

 

 

Now when Mary came to where Jesus was and saw him, she fell at his feet, saying to him, ^t“Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.” ^{33 [/size]}When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come with her also weeping, he ^uwas deeply moved⁵ in his spirit and ^vgreatly troubled. ^{34 [/size]}And he said, “Where have you laid him?” They said to him, “Lord, come and see.” ^{35 [/size]w}Jesus wept. ^{36 [/size]}So the Jews said, “See ^xhow he loved him!”

John 11 32-36

In losing family, friends and fortune I did not mean to imply their death - but rather if the new road took me in the direction in which parting from them and things was natural. And even in that it would certainly be heartfelt, but pain along these lines I have known countless times - it would not be pain of that sort at this point. (your point was well taken - not the clearest wording on my part)

Edited April 6, 2017 by Spotless

[Jetsun]

Awakening can be viewed as a first step - but it is a big step and the end of suffering.

 

That used to be considered a pretty big step.

 

The residuals left over from what I would term a real Awakening - not an Awakening Experience - are actually few in number and beliefs in general have dropped off like dead flyies.

 

I have not heard of Awakening happening "slowly" - I have only heard of Oneness taking place over time and people mistaking Oneness for Awakening.

I have heard of awakening happening slowly or at least very subtly. For example Marlies Cocheret speaks about it in her interview on Batgap, there were no massive dramatic shifts rather one day she and her friends realised that her mind was no longer re-creating the separate ego in the same way. Adyashanti has talked about this quite often and he observed that those who have the big dramatic shifts are either seeking really hard before it happens or they just have that kind of dramatic personality, for many others it can just be a gradual and natural shift.

 

But regarding Byron Katie she calls her initial shift awakening herself, and seems to bear all the hallmarks of awakening when compared to others with similar experiences. I guess it comes back to how you define awakening, one of my teachers defines it as the falling away of the sense of "I" in the heart, which is similar to how Ramana describes the original "I thought" being held in the heart, but just because the sense of I in the heart has dropped away it doesn't mean it has dropped away from every area and every realm of your being.

 

I personally know awake people who are still finding pockets of I and areas of consciousness still held in separation 10 years after their awakening, which is the embodiment process people talk about these days. From my own perception i think people wake up in varying depth and breadth and then the deepening and widening is a lifetimes work.

[Kar3n]

There are a lot of words here, end of the day, our choices are our own.

 

Awakened or not

New old always hungry us

let less become real

[Spotless]

I have heard of awakening happening slowly or at least very subtly. For example Marlies Cocheret speaks about it in her interview on Batgap, there were no massive dramatic shifts rather one day she and her friends realised that her mind was no longer re-creating the separate ego in the same way. Adyashanti has talked about this quite often and he observed that those who have the big dramatic shifts are either seeking really hard before it happens or they just have that kind of dramatic personality, for many others it can just be a gradual and natural shift.

 

But regarding Byron Katie she calls her initial shift awakening herself, and seems to bear all the hallmarks of awakening when compared to others with similar experiences. I guess it comes back to how you define awakening, one of my teachers defines it as the falling away of the sense of "I" in the heart, which is similar to how Ramana describes the original "I thought" being held in the heart, but just because the sense of I in the heart has dropped away it doesn't mean it has dropped away from every area and every realm of your being.

 

I personally know awake people who are still finding pockets of I and areas of consciousness still held in separation 10 years after their awakening, which is the embodiment process people talk about these days. From my own perception i think people wake up in varying depth and breadth and then the deepening and widening is a lifetimes work.

I agree with what you have stated above - but what you specifically stated about Byron Katie to which I responded - the wording was very specific to a Oneness state prior to Awakening.  Certainly considerable residual remains after Awakening - but a great deal of position is gone - the body still has grooves into which relatively automated actions happen but one would not state it in the way you did in the original post which I responded to.

 

These are fine points but even recently Adya was in an interview with a woman on BatGap wherein she expressed exactly what I am talking about - she thought she was Awake and taught as though she was Awake and then about 5 years later she Awoke and realized she was basically in Oneness prior.

 

Oneness will have many of the hallmarks of Awakening - certainly in Oneness a great deal of competitiveness falls to the wayside - and this looks like position falling away but it is not really the falling away of inertia's in the broad sense - it is the falling away of those inertia's that naturally leave to the degree of ones expansion of "other" to include oneself. Oddly - it is still at this stage an "other" that includes your real self and your "I"s.

 

This is not the case in Awakening. For the most part - the "I"s fall away in Awakening. Most of the remains are far more physical related embodiment related grooves - still able to be energized while not identified with - they happen but we are not IN them.

 

Oneness will also come after Awakening if it was not had prior and even then it will come again at a different level.

[dwai]

I agree with what you have stated above - but what you specifically stated about Byron Katie to which I responded - the wording was very specific to a Oneness state prior to Awakening.  Certainly considerable residual remains after Awakening - but a great deal of position is gone - the body still has grooves into which relatively automated actions happen but one would not state it in the way you did in the original post which I responded to.

 

These are fine points but even recently Adya was in an interview with a woman on BatGap wherein she expressed exactly what I am talking about - she thought she was Awake and taught as though she was Awake and then about 5 years later she Awoke and realized she was basically in Oneness prior.

 

Oneness will have many of the hallmarks of Awakening - certainly in Oneness a great deal of competitiveness falls to the wayside - and this looks like position falling away but it is not really the falling away of inertia's in the broad sense - it is the falling away of those inertia's that naturally leave to the degree of ones expansion of "other" to include oneself. Oddly - it is still at this stage an "other" that includes your real self and your "I"s.

 

This is not the case in Awakening. For the most part - the "I"s fall away in Awakening. Most of the remains are far more physical related embodiment related grooves - still able to be energized while not identified with - they happen but we are not IN them.

 

Oneness will also come after Awakening if it was not had prior and even then it will come again at a different level.

 

That Rupert Spira interview on batgap is very good and spot on, on this very topic. 

A key takeaway from the interview is the fact that he talks about over-romanticizing and over-idealizing "awakening" or "enlightenment". It is a very subtle thing and by setting "enlightenment" or "awakening" as a distant goal to work towards, or even to work towards "removing the ego-self",  there is the subtlest of subtle ego-self working towards it. It is not so much the thorn removing the thorn in this case, but a delusion that the thorn (aka ego) is being removed.

 

I would very strongly encourage folks to watch the interview.

Edited April 6, 2017 by dwai

[Jeff]

I agree with what you have stated above - but what you specifically stated about Byron Katie to which I responded - the wording was very specific to a Oneness state prior to Awakening.  Certainly considerable residual remains after Awakening - but a great deal of position is gone - the body still has grooves into which relatively automated actions happen but one would not state it in the way you did in the original post which I responded to.

 

These are fine points but even recently Adya was in an interview with a woman on BatGap wherein she expressed exactly what I am talking about - she thought she was Awake and taught as though she was Awake and then about 5 years later she Awoke and realized she was basically in Oneness prior.

 

Oneness will have many of the hallmarks of Awakening - certainly in Oneness a great deal of competitiveness falls to the wayside - and this looks like position falling away but it is not really the falling away of inertia's in the broad sense - it is the falling away of those inertia's that naturally leave to the degree of ones expansion of "other" to include oneself. Oddly - it is still at this stage an "other" that includes your real self and your "I"s.

 

This is not the case in Awakening. For the most part - the "I"s fall away in Awakening. Most of the remains are far more physical related embodiment related grooves - still able to be energized while not identified with - they happen but we are not IN them.

 

Oneness will also come after Awakening if it was not had prior and even then it will come again at a different level.

 

 

If you don't mind, what is your view on the difference between oneness and awakening?

 

Thanks.

[Spotless]

That Rupert Spira interview on batgap is very good and spot on, on this very topic.

A key takeaway from the interview is the fact that he talks about over-romanticizing and over-idealizing "awakening" or "enlightenment". It is a very subtle thing and by setting "enlightenment" or "awakening" as a distant goal to work towards, or even to work towards "removing the ego-self", there is the subtlest of subtle ego-self working towards it. It is not so much the thorn removing the thorn in this case, but a delusion that the thorn (aka ego) is being removed.

 

I would very strongly encourage folks to watch the interview.

I have seen it and over 300 of the interviews - there is no reason to romaticize Awakening what so ever nor see it as a distant goal or something of the saints and those of virgin birth. But watch 50 of the interviews and it will become clear that people from all walks of life in nearly every case had a "stop" moment of sorts and they Awoke and it was a momentous shift.

 

My case would actually be an exception to the general rule - I just did lots of cushion time - not much time with teachers and not much time in classes - and it happen in the more traditional way, when I was meditating.

 

The illusion is pretty simple - mind loops and position / inertia. Easy to say - hard to get people off the addiction.

 

But it is happening more and more and more - it is exciting!

 

We are slowly but surely getting down to earth words and teachings and teachers that are waking people up without the pie in the sky extremism from our religious heritage and from translations and the dogma's that often abound in lineage.

 

At the same time - we are also seeing many people that have had an Awakening workshop and they can play the walk but clearly don't walk it. Or they have read so many texts and learned so many quotes that they are now authorities on something they have yet to actually experience - and the only thing they will "allow" in their prison cell is quote talk and extreme purity ( though they know nothing of how that actually looks from the inside looking out - just conceptual idealism.

 

Then we get to the fuzzy parts - Oneness - Awakening - various levels of post Awakening.

But the conceptual in these things is quickly lost in embodiment - embodiment is messier - and Awakening is in embodiment - not trance.

Bodies come in different packages - watch 100 of the batgap interviews and you will see two things :

1. Just how judgmental you are (positioned).

2. Just how much in common the Awakened have and just how different they are as people / teacher / sage / priest / monk / etc.....

Edited April 7, 2017 by Spotless

[dawei]

Attachment is "in" the past. Inherently past.

 

If it is in the past it is past...  this seems more a present condition.

 

Maybe you mean there is a [karmic] past that has lead to the present attachment...

 

Can you explain more?