the profound wisdom of forgiveness and the absurdity of attack

[roger]

Isn't it obvious that to hate, to attack, and to get vengeance are very, very poor choices?

 

To forgive to unspeakably wise. You bless every area of your life when you do so.

 

Some people think they should forgive small offenses but not big ones.

 

The bigger the offense you forgive, the greater the blessing you've offered yourself. It would be an extreme opportunity.

 

All of this is self-evident and easily understood with simple honesty.

 

It's best to use common sense and live wisely.

[rex]

It's difficult to generalise for all circumstances and situations, but in the recent past I consciously chose not to go on the offensive in a situation that caused much inner turmoil and hurt and doors opened on my path.

[Miffymog]

Hurt locker time for me - I'm having to ask for forgiveness

[Mandrake]

Isn't it obvious that to hate, to attack, and to get vengeance are very, very poor choices?

 

To forgive to unspeakably wise. You bless every area of your life when you do so.

 

Some people think they should forgive small offenses but not big ones.

 

The bigger the offense you forgive, the greater the blessing you've offered yourself. It would be an extreme opportunity.

 

All of this is self-evident and easily understood with simple honesty.

 

It's best to use common sense and live wisely.

 

"Isn't it obvious that to hate, to attack, and to get vengeance are very, very poor choices?"

 

Absolutely not. There are plenty of situations where attack and vengeance are the right things to do, and where forgiving and letting things be are the wrong choices.

 

I've found that the demons urge others to forgive.

 

 

M

[Marblehead]

I was going to speak but Mandrake outdid what I could possibly do.

[roger]

"Isn't it obvious that to hate, to attack, and to get vengeance are very, very poor choices?"

 

Absolutely not. There are plenty of situations where attack and vengeance are the right things to do, and where forgiving and letting things be are the wrong choices.

 

I've found that the demons urge others to forgive.

 

 

M

 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

 

You could be right.

[Mandrake]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

 

You could be right.

 

Apparently the profound wisdom wasn't profound?

[C T]

Just avoid extreme measures in whatever choices one makes. And be vigilant for repercussions arising from them. 

 

Extreme resentment can easily lead to all sorts of denial and will likely trigger regretful action arising from misplaced intentions. 

 

 

 

 

ps.. Remember: V is for Vegetable, not vengeance 

 

 

 

 

 

 

v late edit (to add 'makes'. Not sure how it was omitted. Maybe it was stolen!) 

Edited April 9, 2017 by C T

[Stosh]

Apparently the profound wisdom wasn't profound?

While your point is true enough In my opinion , the statement could be construed as calling Roger a demon, which he mightn't like, or, some may not care for contradiction however true the point may be.

My morning profundity, is that many think they need to keep being told to be nice repeatedly. Over and over again., with no mitigating rationale.

Because of this , I have been working on the esoteric practice of WITBA , subchapter fvs.

Edited April 8, 2017 by Stosh

[Prasanna]

Isn't it obvious that to hate, to attack, and to get vengeance are very, very poor choices?

 

To forgive to unspeakably wise. You bless every area of your life when you do so.

 

Some people think they should forgive small offenses but not big ones.

 

The bigger the offense you forgive, the greater the blessing you've offered yourself. It would be an extreme opportunity.

 

All of this is self-evident and easily understood with simple honesty.

 

It's best to use common sense and live wisely.

 

 

"Isn't it obvious that to hate, to attack, and to get vengeance are very, very poor choices?"

 

Absolutely not. There are plenty of situations where attack and vengeance are the right things to do, and where forgiving and letting things be are the wrong choices.

 

I've found that the demons urge others to forgive.

 

 

M

Though absolute forgiveness is avoiding revenge or offensive activities in retaliation and not punishing, there are situations for some people where punishing the offender or the one who committed the wrong is itself forgiveness. This is because not all are saints and sages to forgive even the highest of crime. There are other type of personalities like warriors, businessmen, teacher who need to punish the wrong doer. For great spiritual personalities like Jesus Christ or Budhdha the term forgiveness itself doesn't exist because they have crossed over their selfish ego and desires which are the cause for either revenge or forgiveness. They take things as they are without any personal bias. Jesus Christ says, "Hate the sin, not the sinner" which implies that there are no sinners but only people who are innocently ignorant.

 

Let us take the background of the great Mahabharatha war and Bhagavad Gita. Arjuna, the Pandava brother who was the main person to seek a war with the wicked Kauravas for their unrighteousness, suddenly tells Lord krishna in the middle of the battle field that he doesn't want to fight the war. The great warrior suddenly stooped down to cowardice due to his complacency. He turned despondent when he spoke the words of wisdom of a renunciate when he was actually nowhere nearer to that maturity or mental perfection. Arjuna dropped his arms, bows and arrows and started walking away from the battle field. Arjuna said he doesn't want to enjoy the kingdom by killing his cousins. He further said that he is taking to renunciation (Sanyas) instantly. Lord Krishna who is the wisest of the wise knew what was behind Arjuna's deplorable despondency. All the while Arjuna was talking in terms of doing his duty as a warrior and fighting unrighteousness, injustice and corruption. Now suddenly he backed up from the war because he was to fight his own cousins and close relatives. The selfishness and egoism in Arjuna played pranks and made him forget the supreme ideal of fighting unrighteousness, injustice and corruption which is the duty of a warrior. Arjuna cheap selfish mentality was exposed when he gave up his ideal of fighting unrighteousness when it came to matters of himself and his own family. Lord Krishna had to recite the full eighteen (18) chapters of Bhagavad Gita to make Arjuna do his duty as a warrior. Forgiveness in this context is Arjuna fighting for the cause of  righteousness, not foregoing the evil Kauravas who would have caused extreme harm to the society by way of corruption and malpractices. Even if Arjuna had falsely forgiven at that instant by withdrawing himself from battle, it is very evident that in no time he would be forced again to fight the war because Arjuna's real nature was that of of a warrior and not of a saint who can renounce everything.

We have to forgive in a way that it is beneficial for our spiritual growth and beneficial for the society or humanity.

Edited April 8, 2017 by Prasanna

[Marblehead]

But let us not forget that all justice systems are based on the concept of revenge.  You do something bad and we will put you in jail.

[cold]

Unless you are power full enough ...

[Marblehead]

Unless you are power full enough ...

 

Politics aside.

[thelerner]

But let us not forget that all justice systems are based on the concept of revenge.  You do something bad and we will put you in jail.

I think we have courts of justice, so that we don't have individuals seeking out personal revenge.  Justice serves beyond revenge.  Families need rules, society needs rules, laws even.  Less is better but even the best need some.  Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.  Justice should include a measure of education, rehabilitation and means of recompense to those hurt.  Lastly to serve as warning to others not to break the law.

 

For me, peace is easier, after justice has been served.  If its not served, if all is forgiven you can create monsters who continually repeat and get worse.  One can forgive and still seek justice.   

[Marblehead]

 Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

I don't see this quote used by others often.  I sometimes use it.

[Orion]

Forgiveness is only worthwhile when it's authentic and sincere. If your forgiveness is actually pushing something unresolved deep down within yourself and denying your own anger because it's the "right thing to do", then your forgiveness is actually codified and toxic.

 

I say if you can't forgive and you truly feel hateful, then abide there. It's more honest and more real then pretending to be something you're not. It's when we don't acknowledge hate and anger that they consume us.

 

I also agree that some things cannot and should not be forgiven. It may not be my place to forgive someone. It may be out of my league or not my business.

[Mandrake]

Prasanna,
Thanks for an excellent reply. I've had the stories about Arjuna on my reading list for a while, and now I'm even more determined to delve into them

I actually think that the topic of forgiveness is deep. But, it is not simple - throwing out platitudes can even damage people and hence all the nuances are important.

Like the story points out, there is something as principles not being genuine, a person without the realization parroting words of the realized. This is basically putting the cart before the horse. We can understand that realized people live their lives in different fashions, and can strive to transform our inner mechanisms to finally get there.

Anyway, for small matters, yes, forgive and have patience. People need some margins to be able to regret, to reform, and to change. It is also a matter of allowing oneself to being the part that misunderstood the situation.

But my gripe is what to do with the big matters. I've seen 65+ old people who have forgiveness in their philosophy, still hurting from their parents physically assaulting them when they were kids. Of course they can mouth forgiveness, but it is clear as daylight that their bodies, and their personalities haven't forgiven.

What are they to do? They can read books, they can listen to preeches, they can put restrictions on their behaviours, but their life has been damaged and big parts of their force and vitality have been stunted.

There is the danger of your life being halted if one dwells on injustice in the past, but on the other hand, if a deep part of you has been violated, just forgiving won't release you. And this is the thing with hate and other strong emotions: these emotions are communications from a part of you that is non-verbal. Something in you may know that the "forgiveness" was just cowardice when you instead should have stood up for yourself, or that you choose weakness instead of proper uprightness.

"Forgiveness in this context is Arjuna fighting for the cause of  righteousness, not foregoing the evil Kauravas who would have caused extreme harm to the society by way of corruption and malpractices."

And this applies to oneself as well, the corruption and malpractise that is.

"... he would be forced again to fight the war because Arjuna's real nature was that of of a warrior and not of a saint who can renounce everything."

Just check the warrior-immortals in Daoism.

I've also close-hand seen offenders trying to wipe down unfair actions under the carpet under the name of "forgiveness" even though there was no real resolution. They don't care; but they care about the victim being silent. I've seen old people almost crying about the violence of their parents and insisting on forgiveness, when the proper responce would be to at last allow their body speak and scream " f*ck you asswh*les for what you did!" and then begin a proper path to healing.



M

[Stosh]

Whats the rest of the path?

Thats important isnt it?

I can put blame where it belongs, But that doesnt do anything unless I can force the guilty to see things my way. This goes for even the tiniest of things, , Say someone ignores a post , they might do that because they have no sufficient answer, or it just strikes them as something they didnt want to hear.

So they snub the person speaking to them , and feel justified. Since they feel justified , it does nothing to point out the snub.

In fact, they tell themselves that they are forgiving You. and excercising tolerance.

So in properly assigning blame one basically is taking on a burden on behalf of the guilty, and the only solution is to excuse them for being chicken. Right?

Edited April 9, 2017 by Stosh

[silent thunder]

Righteous Anger is an instinctual reaction to horrifying atrocity to me and can be an unstoppable force, yet I find in my own life it is a very rare occurance, or requirement...  very rare.  Gratefully so, as I don't live in war zones, or deal with hostile predators often. 

 

Far more common is the mere personal discomfort anger and self inflated suffering flare ups that occur when I start taking the world personally and when I act on anger in the moment, it is almost unilaterally unhelpful and makes matters more complicated. 

 

Where Righteous anger is a deep, instinctive reaction to encountering acts of horrifying wrongness.  Anger to me, is most often a surface, petty personally projected self inflated flare up and is often not helpful to anyone, least of all me.

 

Given this distinction.  I can't and haven't even tried to inhibit or stop myself from actions involving Righteous Anger.  This is unprompted action that is required by my very essence, there is not thought involved until after the events settle.

 

But every day anger?  pfft, useless for action.  For petty squabbling over words, phrases, political stances and people's opinions, or getting cut off in traffic or any of the daily inconsequential occurings, anger as a response is one I cultivate silence with.  Silence of physical and vocal expression.

 

This type of anger I have steadily acknowledged but not fed in my life.  Now when I flare up, I cultivate silence physically and vocally before I allow myself to interact about it...

 

Inevitably I cool off somewhat and am grateful that I waited to approach an issue due to the reduced intensity allowing a more productive communication in dealing with the actual issue as opposed to just feeding the monster in the moment.

 

Gurdjief claims his grandfather called him to his side, shortly before his death and said to him.
"When you are angry, wait one full day before you express it.  But when you are love, never hesitate for a moment.  Show it."

[dust]

Apparently the profound wisdom wasn't profound?

 

Perhaps his half-hearted agreement was a way of practicing what he preached: not attacking, but forgiving you for implying that he's a demon...?

 

__________________________________

 

 

Interesting topic. It is worth seriously thinking about -- if everyone in the world considered this rationally, perhaps we'd be in less turmoil. But I don't take it as given that forgiveness alone is always the best option. In fact, I think one can choose both options at the same time if necessary.

 

The main objectives/foundations in (my) life are to be alive, healthy, and free to act without harming others. If someone opposes any of these, by killing or harming or imprisoning me in some way... I might be able to 'forgive' them, but I would consider myself remiss if I did not also attempt to remove the possibility that they do the same again, to me or to someone else. Not as punishment, but because we don't want people like that in our society. They would need to be imprisoned, and if possible "rehabilitated".

Edited April 11, 2017 by dust