strength training and qigong

[Yoda]

Here's a cool link, check out John DuCane's recent blog between kettlebells and qigong training:

 

http://www.dragondoor.com/qigong/news/

 

between the link between strength training and chi kung. I'm of the opinion that some sort of boring cardio is super important to make strength training complete and well-rounded. If I don't get the cardio, my inner strength lessens which offsets much of the gains of strength training in terms of raw, animal energy.

 

John's entry makes a good point, but I'm not convinced that the benefits of chikung that he refers to can't be obtained by some basic cardio type training.

 

I'll be interested in his next article.

 

-Yoda

[Cameron]

I just joined furey's inner circle discussion they do quite a bit of talking about combining qigong with combat conditioning.

 

I think CC is numero uno in terms of over all functional strength and cardio. When I do it I feel like I can do alot more physically.

 

Kettlebells are great for cardio also. I took a kettlebell to work and through it around when I am not busy . 50 straight snatches with a Kettlebell is serious Cardio.

 

I am really feeling like I need to do more physically though. I have a free membership to Gold's gym so will probably do some lifting and those epiliptical(sp?) machines. Although CC and just doing body weight stuff is probably the best if you can do it.

 

Sonnon's stuff is neat to I bought a pair of clubbells.

 

shameful as it is, I'll prpbably be back in the gym lifting though and doing hampster cardio(machines).

[Yoda]

awesome about the inner circle thing! I love Matt, but could never get into CC--I can't find my groove with it. Aside from the fact that I don't like actually doing it, I can see that CC is numero uno for all-around strength, conditioning, and flexibility. KBs have a natural swing momentum that keeps me going and hamster cardio is even easier--so that's where I gravitate. If I ever cleaned out my garage, I'd start deadlifting in a heartbeat.

 

-Yoda

[Lozen]

My qi gong teacher always warned against weightlifting, one time I got asked why can't you do both? he said they worked at cross purposes, that you can either work to strengthen the tendons and ligaments and relax your muscles, or work to tense your muscles. Also he's really anti-running or jogging, says it messes up your heart meridian...

 

I have bugged him about this after class a coupla times, told him that we are not meant to be weak and frail and unable to lift things or jump... and he said you won't get any of that from weight training, it'll teach you how to use your muscles in a way you will never have to... So I asked him how the hell I'm supposed to get rid of excess moisture (heh, aka fat) and he said through breathing properly...right... Eventually he said it's okay to get cardio as long as you're getting it from swimming, hiking or biking (oh, but you have to bike without getting your knees out over your toe, which I *still* can't figure out how to do, and not for lack of trying).

 

So it's good to know his isn't the only opinion out there... Still trying to figure out what I feel comfortable with myself. I try to get SOME form of excercise every day for at least 15 minutes in addition to the qi gong and stretching and all that... usu. hop on my beloved bicycle or go for a walk.

[peter falk]

Eventually he said it's okay to get cardio as long as you're getting it from swimming, hiking or biking (oh, but you have to bike without getting your knees out over your toe, which I *still* can't figure out how to do, and not for lack of trying).

 

your seat adjustment may be wrong. all the authorities on cycling say the same thing, as far as i know. your seat height and position forward/back should be such that your knee is over you toe when bent. maybe your cranks are the wrong lenght. or a combination.

[neimad]

i just started doing du canes 5 animal frolics.

 

have so far done the crane and the bear.

 

let me tell you his chi kung is great.

 

i have only been doing it for about 6 days but already notice definite improvements in well being, strength and joint mobility.... i'm quite suprised actually to be noticing such improvements so quickly.

 

i am almost feeling like this chi kung actually sets aside the necissity for weight training that i was doing a bit of before... i am one skinny guy, ever since i took it upon myself to clean up my diet and body all my excess weight melted off and for a long time i felt i have been wasting away slowly. since starting this chi kung i feel it has now been reversed, i am expanding in feeling and i can definately feel that in no time i will put on some weight too.

 

cardio still think is neccessary, bike ride couple of times a week should be fine.

also some stretching too.

[Cameron]

I agree about heavy weight training being somewhat counter productive to chi development. I also practice internal martial arts and I feel excessive muscle development sort of "Gets in the way" of that.

 

Advanced internal martial artists almost never do weight training and stress internal chi power and bone/tendon power. Fa Jing and other such abilities are all results of relaxing your muscles and letting the qi flow through the body like a tidal wave originating in the dan tien.

 

I actually enjoy lifting wieghts and if I didn't enjoy internal power more would probably be a serious bodybuilder. but for me there is no comparision .You can either get an external pump in your muscles that makes you strong or an internal pump from qi cultivation and martial arts.

 

I like the way Bruce frantzis explains it that external size and strength is like having a wallet full of hundred dollar bills and internal strength is like having 1 small credit card with a million dollar limit. It may not look as impressive, but it's better.

 

However, I also feel CC is the missing link and ties together perfectly with internal arts. And from what I have seen from Sonnon's material is also.

 

And like John ducane said, the bells develop whole body power which is also good. but I think CC iss till the optimum complement to internal arts. To me it is the perfect Yang to Qigong's Yin. Even Wang Zhaing Zhai and Ueshiba would probably approve.

[Lozen]

your seat adjustment may be wrong.  all the authorities on cycling say the same thing, as far as i know.  your seat height and position forward/back should be such that your knee is over you toe when bent.  maybe your cranks are the wrong lenght.  or a combination.

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Wait, he said my knees SHOULDN'T be over my toes at any time...

[RedKooga]

What is CC? Clubbells? Circuit training?

 

Lozen there's a type of running that was recommended to me. It doesn't have the type of bad impact all that bouncy jogging can have on the joints. It also prevents the unusual prolonged strain on the heart associated with jogging. Instead of running at a moderate speed you run as fast as you can till you reach exhaustion. Then you walk until you've recovered enough to run again and off you go. Its sometimes taught as a way to get fit very quickly. The only problem I've encountered with it is finding an appropriate place to do it and the way people and animals react to it. I've had people ask me whom I'm running from or if its dark or whatever even start running away from me themselves, horses have reared up and dogs go even more mental than when they see a jogger.

 

...

 

Personally I just don't see a need for strength training since my build is already heavy as lead. I don't do any hard style martial arts anymore nor do I go to the gym for the weights or machines, its internal stuff and aerobic fitness I work on. I only have so much time to devote towards exercise so it's practical to go about things that way.

 

I love trekking across the moores, cliffs and hills here. I also swim in the sea during the summer and *blush* in the wintertime especially I do a self-stylised form of step aerobics that has been a favourite of mine for about ten years. Add to that the combination of Hatha Yoga's stretchiness plus Chi Kung's more direct internal cultivation and I feel I've got a good thing going on.

[peter falk]

Wait, he said my knees SHOULDN'T be over my toes at any time...

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yeah, well, wht i men is they shouldnt go passed your toes, which is how i interpreted your post, perhaps incorrectly. the whole i dea being your knee should never bee forward of your toes. directly over at maximum flex, behind at maximum extension.

[peter falk]

Lozen there's a type of running that was recommended to me. It doesn't have the type of bad impact all that bouncy jogging can have on the joints. It also prevents the unusual prolonged strain on the heart associated with jogging. Instead of running at a moderate speed you run as fast as you can till you reach exhaustion. Then you walk until you've recovered enough to run again and off you go. Its sometimes taught as a way to get fit very quickly. The only problem I've encountered with it is finding an appropriate place to do it and the way people and animals react to it. I've had people ask me whom I'm running from or if its dark or whatever even start running away from me themselves, horses have reared up and dogs go even more mental than when they see a jogger.

 

that's called "interval training." top athletes use it to develop anaerobic capacity, and all that sprinting is pretty ruff on the joints. the "fox run" or "scout run" the apache indians and otehr southwest indians used is way better. you legs go up and down like pistons, your heels never touch the ground, and your head should stay level. in other words, if you were running along a string that was stretched and level to the top of your head, you would never move the string vertically.

 

land on the outside of your foot and roll to the inside and back, but never put your heels down. i've done this kind of runing and it is invorgorating and rejuvenating no matter how far you go. indians using this method could routinely run 75 or 100 miles without getting tired. your legs have to go up and down like psitons to prevent the bouncing.

 

as for weightlifting, lozen is right. you train your muscles to work in ways you never use them. it's better to just have active employment like in landscaping or carpentry soemthing where you use your muscles in groups and gently exercise them all day. primitive people never "work out" but their lifestyle is ideal for keeping fit.

[RedKooga]

land on the outside of your foot and roll to the inside and back, but never put your heels down.  i've done this kind of runing and it is invorgorating and rejuvenating no matter how far you go.  indians using this method could routinely run 75 or 100 miles without getting tired.  your legs have to go up and down like psitons to prevent the bouncing.

 

Thanks. You're probably right that sprinting is too hard on the joints. I couldn't find a website that talked about "fox running" or "scout running" specifically but I came across one called Running Barefoot that has lots of articles that seem to support this no heel touching style of running.

[Lozen]

yeah, well, wht i men is they shouldnt go passed your toes, which is how i interpreted your post, perhaps incorrectly.  the whole i dea being your knee should never bee forward of your toes.  directly over at maximum flex, behind at maximum extension.

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Hmmm, maybe I understood *him* wrong, because I've been trying to bike with my knee behind my toes on full extension, and I can't for the life of me figure out how. I asked him how and he said, "very carefully." I can play with where I put my foot on the pedal etc. but it seems I always revered to knee right above (not past) the toe... Okay, one more question to ask him.

[monucka]

I rock climb, and try to avoid the obviously dangerous stuff. It works for me, even in a rock gym. I'm somewhat convinced that our ancestors had to climb at least often enough to have selected for inherent ability: little kids, once they trust a rope, can climb like no others. If that's true then, like running, it's a naturally optimized form of exercise. Plus there's a real opportunity to connect with mountains, sky, weather, balance/rooting, and personal fear and limitation. I train slowly, go for strength and endurance, stay as safe as possible, and avoid the competetive aspects of it. That seems to make it fit more with my worldview. - j

[HaPPyMaraXXus]

I rock climb, and try to avoid the obviously dangerous stuff. It works for me, even in a rock gym. I'm somewhat convinced that our ancestors had to climb at least often enough to have selected for inherent ability: little kids, once they trust a rope, can climb like no others. If that's true then, like running, it's a naturally optimized form of exercise. Plus there's a real opportunity to connect with mountains, sky, weather, balance/rooting, and personal fear and limitation. I train slowly, go for strength and endurance, stay as safe as possible, and avoid the competetive aspects of it. That seems to make it fit more with my worldview. - j

I've rock climbed before, but I'm nothing near a regular at it. One thing I can say, however, is that the ones that I have climbed were a far cry from easy tasks. Well! what kind of places have you gotten to climb that are a step away from unproblematic and ordiary...as a regular you are most likely to have seen some incredible summits.

I'd say my top best of the very few were in Tibet and Columbia. Incredible rush.

I totally understand the connection with the elements and the forces of all that make life possible/impossible. I suppose if I had the chance to do more training for safety and techniques to better endurance...I'd be doing it more...but you know how it goes, one small step at a time, and finish the things your started first.

 

Just my "two copper pieces",

-Jessica

[GrandTrinity]

how about dynamic tension so you just tighten your muscles and move them, instead of using weights?

[BobD]

how about dynamic tension so you just tighten your muscles and move them, instead of using weights?

Just added two such things to my routine as of yesterday! I only know these two, which are a) hands clasped in front of chest, arms horizontal across chest and push together, and same arms position, but fingers of each hand curled over and grabbing onto each other, and pull apart (not very good descriptions to either but there you go).

 

Are there any more such that you can recommend and describe?

[Yoda]

holding various positions with knees bent like in Lam Kam Chuen's standing drills, holding stages of pushup positions, pushing/pulling against a doorway. Bruce Lee was said to hold small weights a arms length for the whole day, etc.

 

They are said to develop freakish energy levels and endurance.

[BobD]

holding various positions with knees bent like in Lam Kam Chuen's standing drills, holding stages of pushup positions, pushing/pulling against a doorway.  Bruce Lee was said to hold small weights a arms length for the whole day, etc. 

 

They are said to develop freakish energy levels and endurance.

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Ah right. I do the standing practices, and a Yoga one (called the plank I think which is like a pressup at the top position). I've seen the the arm one where you hold your arms out to the side horizontally and hold weights, but for the whole day ?! Wow.

 

Is pushing against a door like a pushup but vertically (eg against the door rather than the floor)? In which case how do you pull against it?

[Lozen]

bump

[Spectrum]

holding various positions with knees bent like in Lam Kam Chuen's standing drills, holding stages of pushup positions, pushing/pulling against a doorway. Bruce Lee was said to hold small weights a arms length for the whole day, etc.

 

They are said to develop freakish energy levels and endurance.

 

The push/pulling can also be a rooting exercise. The small weights at arms length is an excellent way to burn off/cultivate accumilated chi. Goood Gung. Coorciates the whole body mind. Don't lock the elbow, keep it relaxed. It helps to have a round weight w/ a hole. Look through the hole into the corner of the ceiling, arm at approx 45 degrees. Hang the weight on a hook coming from the middle of the corner. Do the work with as minimal as effort as possible. As your metabolism fires up the breath will adjust. Just my .02 It's a good exercise w/ sound results.

Edited October 5, 2006 by Spectrum

[...]

I lift weights and do some running.

I have been weight-lifting through much of my spiritual practice... and I don't notice any difference when I am working out heavy/ not working out at all with my practice...

 

the whole 'muscles or ligaments/tendons' thing sounds pretty dualistic and unreasonable. In fact, it sounds stupid. (no offense, lozen ) Yes, when you work out, your muscles tense and bulge (which is goooood,) but it is not like that all the time... unless you are wearing tight shirts and "flex-walk" so your muscles look even bigger... which is lame and stupid... but having muscle doesn't mean you're going to be tense all the time.

 

I think running is great. I PREFER to run on a tread-mill, ('hampster machine") because I believe that it is A) better to control your conditioning and overall/daily training program, and lets you know EXACTLY HOW you run every time... and it is easier on your joints. (which cannot be over-emphasized...)

Also, I run for the sole purpose of conditioning... so how I go about doing it doesn't matter to me.

 

If running is 'bad' for your heart meridian, it is good for your lungs, oxygen intake, circulation... over-time, it slows your regular heartbeat... There a ton of benefits to running well. Like all things, you can over do it, or do it wrong or something... But if you listen to your body, I have a hard time believing that running is a poor choice.

 

I think your qigong teacher is full of shit, lozen =( (no offense )

 

*I* think that you should cultivate ALL aspects of your body.