[DDJ Meaning] Chapter 6

[Gerry]

Is there anyone here tainted by western thoughts in the manner I am?  That is looking at awareness and the Tao juxtaposed to the notions of being and being in the world.  I mean this in the sense of the German Sein and DaSien from Heidegger. 

 

I am not a Heidegger "person", nor a Husserl person, but what I have read of Phenomenology and both of their works adds to what I see in the reading of the TTC, CH#6.   What is known?  How does the knower know the known?  Is the capacity to know related to "valley spirit" and the creative female in ch#6?

Edited April 12, 2017 by Gerry

[Marblehead]

Hi Gerry,

 

This is one of the chapters where I have to agree with Flowing Hands in that it is deeply rooted in ancient Chinese Shamanic beliefs.

 

The chapter speaks to the source of life.  The female is the source of life.  This much can be known as we have observable proof.

 

Carrying this concept to the universal level we have "One gave birth to Two".  "One" is obviously female.

 

 

But his really, for me, isn't very significant.  That is why I prefer seeing the word "feminine" used instead of "female".  Feminine is linked to Yin and Yin is linked with rest - the valley being linked to the place of rest.

[flowing hands]

Hi Gerry

 

I don't want to derail the thread, but to simply offer;  as a shaman we communicate with life that has passed to the energy aspect of living, they now are just the 'spirit essence' so when I say he taught me, he did it in this way of being an energy entity talking to a mortal, although being an Immortal he is quite capable of taking on a physical form if necessary.

[Gerry]

Hi Gerry

 

I don't want to derail the thread, but to simply offer;  as a shaman we communicate with life that has passed to the energy aspect of living, they now are just the 'spirit essence' so when I say he taught me, he did it in this way of being an energy entity talking to a mortal, although being an Immortal he is quite capable of taking on a physical form if necessary.

We are born.  We live.  We die.

[Gerry]

MarbleHead, 

 

For me this chapter is I believe culture and language, both current and ancient, gets between me and some translations.

 

As to the "Shamanic beliefs", I must bracket them off too.

[flowing hands]

Hi Gerry

 

Let me ask you a simple and factual question.

 

Where did Daoism originate from?

[Gerry]

Hi Gerry

 

Let me ask you a simple and factual question.

 

Where did Daoism originate from?

The Tao or Taoism?

 

I would say that the Tao that exists existed before consciousness existed in the universe.  Perhaps it was from farting apes in Africa.

[flowing hands]

Hi Gerry

 

I was quite specific and I said 'Daoism', that is humans understanding of the world, energies and way things fit together. Which has evolved into a spiritual and practical understanding of the nature of all things and ourselves and our part in that process. So where did this come from?

[Brian]

The Tao or Taoism?

 

I would say that the Tao that exists existed before consciousness existed in the universe. Perhaps it was from farting apes in Africa.

African farting apes predate consciousness? Cool!

[Gerry]

African farting apes predate consciousness? Cool!

Consciousness is a human thing.

 

Mind is a human thing.

 

Before humans there was neither.

 

I once knew a language teacher at Harvard how  who  would ponder from time to time about the syntactical structure of a language based on farting.  He was doing acid at the time, so.....?

 

 

Edit:  how = who

Edited April 14, 2017 by Gerry

[dawei]

Where has this 'valley spirit' come from? How does it add up to the rest of the verse? It doesn't really, perhaps comes from the belief in the river spirits that roamed along the valley and woods. Offerings were often given to the 'valley spirit', as this was often a source of food and water.

 

Lei Erh though taught me this:

 

The root of Heaven and Earth lies in its spirit.

Search and feel this spirit, for it ever present,

the gateway to all mysteries.

 

The spirit is the primordial Mother of the Ten Thousand Things (all things that exist)

It is ever present and eternal.

 

 

Now this makes sense and is indeed all about self cultivation to become an Immortal.

 

This is definitely one chapter that I tend to view your transmission as making it more clear.

 

For me, Valley is more just a landscape character; Spirit is the message and point. 

 

Ames and Hall translates this as 'the life-force of the valley'.  

[Brian]

Consciousness is a human thing.

 

Mind is a human thing.

 

Before humans there was neither.

 

I once knew a language teacher at Harvard how who would ponder from time to time about the syntactical structure of a language based on farting. He was doing acid at the time, so.....?

 

 

Edit: how = who

What do you consider to be the definition of "consciousness?"

[dawei]

What do you consider to be the definition of "consciousness?"

 

I had the same question.... so thanks for asking 

[Marblehead]

Well, don't ask me - I'm a rock.

[Brian]

http://integratedinformationtheory.org

 

Food for thought (even for rocks...)

[dust]

Well I assumed Gerry was joking but just in case, a simple and direct case for consciousness: it is the state of being aware of and responsive to one's surroundings and/or something within oneself.

 

If we define something as 'alive', we define it as being responsive to stimuli; if 'animal', we define it as being quickly responsive and usually aware of surroundings; and if we define it as 'vertebrate', we define it as being responsive, aware of its surroundings, and perhaps aware of itself. All vertebrates, then, are 'conscious' by definition. It is also believed by many that various invertebrates are also conscious.

 

Less complex life like plants, fungi, bacteria, are obviously responsive to their surroundings too, though I think the debate on whether or not they are 'aware' of their surroundings will be controversial on this forum. But obviously humans are not the only ones with consciousness.

[Gerry]

Hi Gerry

 

I was quite specific and I said 'Daoism', that is humans understanding of the world, energies and way things fit together. Which has evolved into a spiritual and practical understanding of the nature of all things and ourselves and our part in that process. So where did this come from?

Genetic complexification.  

 

For Teilhard, the Law of Complexity-Consciousness continues to run today in the form of the socialization of mankind. The closed and circular surface of the Earth contributes to the increased compression (socialization) of mankind. As human beings continue to come into closer contact with one another, their methods of interaction continue to complexify in the form of better organized social networks, which contributes to an overall increase in consciousness, or the noosphere.  [Pierre Teilhard de Chardin]

 

As to your "Daoism"  it is ever the expression of the individual's response to the knower and the known.  Is Daoism a thing?  Is it a ritual experience?  Is your consciousness not its source?

[Gerry]

Well I assumed Gerry was joking but just in case, a simple and direct case for consciousness: it is the state of being aware of and responsive to one's surroundings and/or something within oneself.

 

If we define something as 'alive', we define it as being responsive to stimuli; if 'animal', we define it as being quickly responsive and usually aware of surroundings; and if we define it as 'vertebrate', we define it as being responsive, aware of its surroundings, and perhaps aware of itself. All vertebrates, then, are 'conscious' by definition. It is also believed by many that various invertebrates are also conscious.

 

Less complex life like plants, fungi, bacteria, are obviously responsive to their surroundings too, though I think the debate on whether or not they are 'aware' of their surroundings will be controversial on this forum. But obviously humans are not the only ones with consciousness.

Consciousness is what you are doing right now. it is a by product of the genetic complexification of the physical world. It is when the knower and the know understands that it is.  Sort of like "I think therefore I am". 

 

[An after thought,  I would think if fair to suggest that it is an evolved thing.  As hominids emerged and evolved, so did Consciousness.]

 

But obviously humans are not the only ones with consciousness

As intended, yes, well as far as we know.  There are "billion and billions" of other places.  Consciousness is not the end, perhaps, but it is for us.

 

[Another after thought,  It might be argument that human consciousness is not the only evolved consciousness on earth.]

 

Consciousness is born, it lives, and it ceases to be.  It is all that we are, were, and will be.  That there is, may, be other Consciousness is a projection of our individual Consciousness.  Consciousness is not given by any universal Mind or the Tao.  Well it is emergent within Tao, but consciousness  is not the Tao we know.  Consciousness is not an aspect of Tao in what might be called an active sense.

 

When I said farting apes, it was a kind of joke.  More of "I really don't want to go there with you, please find someone else to play with."  It was not meant as in insult, just away to not offend with what I was thinking

[Gerry]

 

It is also believed by many that various invertebrates are also conscious.

I might substitute "aware".  I it possible that consciousness has emerged more that once in earth's history. 

Edited April 16, 2017 by Gerry

[Gerry]

I think all of this constitutes "hijacking" a thread, and perhaps should be dropped.

[dust]

I agree with that last one Gerry. Might be fun to have a new discussion about consciousness on the board but maybe this whole off-topic exchange has gone far enough! (most posts on page 2-3 are not about the chapter at all!)

 

Back to chapter 6... this is from the Heshanggong Laozi, I'll post it and hopefully get some help interpreting it...

 

谷神不死，谷，養也。人能養神則不死也。神，謂五臟之神也。肝藏魂，肺藏魄，心藏神，腎藏精，脾藏志，五藏盡傷，則五神去矣。

 

是謂玄牝。言不死之有，在於玄牝。玄，天也，於人為鼻。牝，地也，於人為口。天食人以五氣，從鼻入藏於心。五氣輕微，為精、神、聰、明、音聲五性。其鬼曰魂，魂者雄也，主出入於人鼻，與天通，故鼻為玄也。地食人以五味，從口入藏於胃。五味濁辱，為形、骸、骨、肉、血、脈六情。其鬼曰魄，魄者雌也，主出入於人口，與地通，故口為牝也。

 

玄牝之門是謂天地根。根，元也。言鼻口之門，是乃通天地之元氣所從往來也。

 

綿綿若存，鼻口呼噏喘息，當綿綿微妙，若可存，復若無有。

 

用之不勤。用氣當寬舒，不當急疾懃勞也。

Edited April 16, 2017 by dust

[flowing hands]

Hi Gerry

 

Humans originate from one source and it is only because of environmental and then social aspects that we appear different. I was trying to get you to step out of your obvious western philosophical perspective; it does not serve you well in understanding that which was written over 2,500 years ago. As an understanding and a means of comprehending the world around; Daoism's roots are firmly in the ancients peoples who believed in spirits and Immortals. Lei Erh did not write some old dry intellectual philosophy for us westerners to intellectualise about, he wrote about a living, vibrant energy and its roots and mysteries. He also wrote about the human condition and our interaction with others and other life. He wanted us to feel it, see it and live by those very simple rules, which means letting go of a lot of intellectual stuff and baggage.

[Marblehead]

The airport lost my baggage for me.

[Gerry]

Hi Gerry

 

Humans originate from one source and it is only because of environmental and then social aspects that we appear different. I was trying to get you to step out of your obvious western philosophical perspective; it does not serve you well in understanding that which was written over 2,500 years ago. As an understanding and a means of comprehending the world around; Daoism's roots are firmly in the ancients peoples who believed in spirits and Immortals. Lei Erh did not write some old dry intellectual philosophy for us westerners to intellectualise about, he wrote about a living, vibrant energy and its roots and mysteries. He also wrote about the human condition and our interaction with others and other life. He wanted us to feel it, see it and live by those very simple rules, which means letting go of a lot of intellectual stuff and baggage.

I would say projected. 

 

FWIW, the rest of what you said is not in conflict with what I see.  I have suggested that we, living 2500 years in the future, cannot directly apprehend the intent, the understanding, the world view, of what the ancient intended for each other to understand.  Each of us, in our own idiomatic and idiosyncratic way need to touch the elephant with our own hands.

 

But also, what is consciousness, ourselves, is transient and unreachable by others.  It comes from "no where" and in dust it returns.

Edited April 16, 2017 by Gerry

[flowing hands]

Hi Gerry

 

No they certainly 'believed' for a whole tradition and system has evolved in virtually every cultural one can think of based on those beliefs. Mind you the major religions have done their best to overthrow what remains of those ancient systems. The elephant can be touched by all of us and it is the same experience, it is most definitely all the baggage that stops this process happening.

 

"search and feel this spirit............ it is ever present and eternal"

Edited April 16, 2017 by flowing hands