[DDJ Meaning] Chapter 6

[Jeff]

I would say projected. 

 

FWIW, the rest of what you said is not in conflict with what I see.  I have suggested that we, living 2500 years in the future, cannot directly apprehend the intent, the understanding, the world view, of what the ancient intended for each other to understand.  Each of us, in our own idiomatic and idiosyncratic way need to touch the elephant with our own hands.

 

But also, what is consciousness, ourselves, is transient and unreachable by others.  It comes from "no where" and in dust it returns.

Apologize for intruding in your discussion with SFH, but your comment above goes counter to the meaning of this chapter of the Tao Te Ching. As you can see in the words, it is specifically saying that if you find/realize the "gate", you will ultimately realize the Dao. Doesn't matter if it is today or 2500 years ago. This gateway is not like touching an elephant, but more like beginning to "be" the elephant.

 

The valley spirit never dies;

It is the woman, primal mother.

Her gateway is the root of heaven and Earth.

It is like a veil barely seen.

Use it; it will never fail.

 

Find it, use it, and it will never fail...

[Gerry]

Jeff: As you can see in the words, it is specifically saying that if you find/realize the "gate", you will ultimately realize the Dao

 

Actually, it does.  Are the valley spirits the idiomatic way you express yourself, or it that how you accommodate yourself to the 2500 old cultural expressions.  As I tried to sat, each of us will fi.nd this in our own  way.

 

The valley spirit never dies;
It is the woman, primal mother.
Her gateway is the root of heaven and Earth.
It is like a veil barely seen.
Use it; it will never fail.

 

If you wanted to rewrite this in a "modern idiom"  what would you say?

[Jeff]

I have already done that in post 11 in this thread. But here it is again copied here...

 

The valley spirit is the mother of all (10,000) things.

Relative to time and space, she is external and present in all things.

Search for her as as she is the gateway that leads to the realization of heaven and earth (enlightenment).

 

(She is the pure "light" of pure reception (female principle), or completely unattached energy)

[Gerry]

Flowing hands posted this, and I liked that the images were not tied to the valley talk.

 

The root of Heaven and Earth lies in its spirit.

Search and feel this spirit, for it ever present,

the gateway to all mysteries.

 

The spirit is the primordial Mother of the Ten Thousand Things (all things that exist)

It is ever present and eternal.

 

When I read the various translation I read about the creative force as both local and ephemeral as well as the "eternal" Tao's as the creative energy of all and of nothing.

Edited April 16, 2017 by Gerry

[Jeff]

Flowing hands posted this, and I liked that the images were not tied to the valley talk.

 

The root of Heaven and Earth lies in its spirit.

Search and feel this spirit, for it ever present,

the gateway to all mysteries.

 

The spirit is the primordial Mother of the Ten Thousand Things (all things that exist)

It is ever present and eternal.

 

When I read the various translation I read about the creative force as both local and ephemeral as well as the "eternal" Tao's as the creative energy of all and of nothing.

I like SFH's version of it too. But, to me the "valley aspect" is an important part of the meaning. It relates directly to the "two" that come from the "one". Being the valley of the universe relates directly to being an immortal (as will be found when we get to chapter 28).

 

Also, as SFH sort of described in his post regarding how he received his version. The TTC is about far more than words. It is about experencial realization. And that realization transcends time or words. One just knows...

[Gerry]

Jeff,

 

I have toyed with the idea of "translating" a version of some of the chatpter, but my better sense keeps me away from it.  At times I write journal entries with my feelings about a translation, but then the is an infrequent activity.

 

One of the issues I feel others will have with my pov is the absolute Materialistic reference frame for the Human condition. 

[dust]

As you can see in the words, it is specifically saying that if you find/realize the "gate", you will ultimately realize the Dao.

 

Is it?

 

In one of many interpretations, someone's translated as "use it, it will never fail." But I don't think that's the specific meaning of the text...it's just one possible interpretation.

 

The English word "fail" carries connotations that the Chinese character 勤 does not. I think "fail" is a poor translation -- we're not talking of 'failure' so much as 'drying up' or becoming 'exhausted'. I don't think we're specifically talking about being able to "use" the Dao as if it were a trusty screwdriver that will never not screw.

 

I'm hoping someone will come along and help with the Heshanggong... Heshanggong seemed to believe that the chapter explains how to become an immortal.. but it's all a bit esoteric for me to attempt to translate..

[Jeff]

Jeff,

 

I have toyed with the idea of "translating" a version of some of the chatpter, but my better sense keeps me away from it.  At times I write journal entries with my feelings about a translation, but then the is an infrequent activity.

 

One of the issues I feel others will have with my pov is the absolute Materialistic reference frame for the Human condition.

 

Why not do it? I am sure your version will resonate with a large group of people. We all seem to find what fits for each of us at the time that is right.

[Jeff]

Is it?

 

In one of many interpretations, someone's translated as "use it, it will never fail." But I don't think that's the specific meaning of the text...it's just one possible interpretation.

 

The English word "fail" carries connotations that the Chinese character 勤 does not. I think "fail" is a poor translation -- we're not talking of 'failure' so much as 'drying up' or becoming 'exhausted'. I don't think we're specifically talking about being able to "use" the Dao as if it were a trusty screwdriver that will never not screw.

 

I'm hoping someone will come along and help with the Heshanggong... Heshanggong seemed to believe that the chapter explains how to become an immortal.. but it's all a bit esoteric for me to attempt to translate..

I would agree that this chapter is about the "gateway" that leads to becoming an immortal. If you are interested in the specific steps around the gateway described here, I would suggest that you jump to chapter 28. The gateway described here would map to the "stream of the universe" stage in that section.

[Geof Nanto]

Is it?

 

In one of many interpretations, someone's translated as "use it, it will never fail." But I don't think that's the specific meaning of the text...it's just one possible interpretation.

 

The English word "fail" carries connotations that the Chinese character 勤 does not. I think "fail" is a poor translation -- we're not talking of 'failure' so much as 'drying up' or becoming 'exhausted'. I don't think we're specifically talking about being able to "use" the Dao as if it were a trusty screwdriver that will never not screw.

 

I'm hoping someone will come along and help with the Heshanggong... Heshanggong seemed to believe that the chapter explains how to become an immortal.. but it's all a bit esoteric for me to attempt to translate..

 

From:  Heshang Gong; Lao Tzu. The Ho-Shang Kung Commentary on Lao Tzu’s Tao Te Ching, translated by Dan G. Reid……

 

Chapter Six 成 象 Formation and Image

 

 谷 神 不 死， 谷， 養 也。 人 能 養 神 則 不 死 也。 神， 謂 五 臟 之 神 也。 肝 藏 魂， 肺 藏 魄， 心 藏 神， 腎 藏 精， 脾 藏 志， 五 藏 盡 傷， 則 五 神 去 矣。

 

“Be a valley to the spirit and you will not die” A valley is nourishing. People have the power to nourish the spirit and not die. “Spirit” refers to the five organ spirits. The liver hides the ethereal (hun) spirit; the lungs hide the corporeal (po) spirit; the heart hides the mind (shen) spirit; the kidneys and sexual organs hide the essence (jing) spirit; and the spleen hides the intention (zhi) spirit. If these five hidden spirits are exhausted and injured, they will leave.

 

是 謂 玄 牝。 言 不 死 之 有， 在 於 玄 牝。 玄， 天 也， 於 人 為 鼻。 牝， 地 也， 於 人 為 口。 天 食 人 以 五 氣， 從 鼻 入 藏 於 心。 五 氣 輕 微， 為 精、 神、 聰、 明、 音 聲 五 性。 其 鬼 曰 魂， 魂 者 雄 也， 主 出 入 於 人 鼻， 與 天 通， 故 鼻 為 玄 也。 地 食 人 以 五 味， 從 口 入 藏 於 胃。 五 味 濁 辱， 為 形、 骸、 骨、 肉、 血、 脈 六 情。 其 鬼 曰 魄， 魄 者 雌 也， 主 出 入 於 人 口， 與 地 通， 故 口 為 牝 也。

 

“This is called the Fathomless and the Female” What cannot die are the Fathomless and the Female. The Fathomless is of Heaven. In people, this is the nose. The Female is of the Earth. In people, this is the mouth. Heaven feeds people with the five energy-breaths. They go in through the nose, and are stored in the heart. The five energy-breaths are refined to make the vital essence, shen-spirit, intelligence, clear vision, vocal expression, and the five spiritual-natures.[ 20] Their entity is the ethereal spirit (hun). This entity is male. It controls the outflow and inflow of a person’s nose so that Heaven can pass through them. Thus, the nose is the Fathomless.

 

Earth feeds people with the five flavours. They go in through the mouth and are stored in the stomach. The five flavours are mixed and compacted to create the form, the bones, the skeletal framework, the muscles, the blood, the blood channels, and the six emotions. Their entity is the corporeal spirit (po). This entity is female. It controls the outflow and inflow of a person’s mouth, so that Earth can pass through them. Thus, the mouth is the Female.

 

玄 牝 之 門， 是 謂 天 地 根。 根， 元 也。 言 鼻 口 之 門， 是 乃 通 天 地 之 元 氣 所 從 往 來 也。

 

“The gate to the Fathomless and the Female is called The Root of Heaven and Earth” The root is the origin. This means that the original energy-breaths (yuan qi) of Heaven and Earth are sent out and drawn in through the gates of the nose and the mouth.

 

綿 綿 若 存， 鼻 口 呼 噏 喘 息， 當 綿 綿 微 妙， 若 可 存， 復 若 無 有。

 

“Soft and gentle. This is her way of existence” The nose and mouth exhale and inhale, breathe in deeply and let the breath out slowly. (The breath) should be soft and gentle, unnoticeable and subtle, returning to be as though not there.

 

用 之 不 勤。 用 氣 當 寬 舒， 不 當 急 疾 懃 勞 也。

 

“Do not draw on her use laboriously” Use of the breath should be wide, spacious, open, stretched, easy, and comfortable. It should not be quick and urgent, difficult, overzealous, or laborious.

[cheya]

Yueya, Dust's comment on Heshang Gong interested me, and I tried to follow up on it, but got nowhere... so very pleased to see your post! Thank you!

[liminal_luke]

 

Lau

 

6

The spirit of the valley never dies. 

This is called the mysterious female. 

The gateway of the mysterious female 

Is called the root of heaven and earth. 

Dimly visible, it seems as if it were there, 

Yet use will never drain it. 

 

 

I like this one.  There`s something very potent about that borderline (erm...liminal) place between being and non-being, the paradox of seeming to be present and yet not behaving like other present things, being inexhaustible.  It seems to me that this is where the power and magic lies.  Not, as is often supposed, in the far wilds of emptiness, that (non) place that seems to bear no relation to the workaday dualistic world; not there but closer in, right at the doorway between being and non-being.  The point is not to reside forever in the infinite; the point is to connect with the infinite and bring a little bit of it back to earth.  

 

To see a World in a Grain of Sand

And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,

Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand

And Eternity in an hour

 

William Blake

Edited April 17, 2017 by liminal_luke

[dust]

From:  Heshang Gong; Lao Tzu. The Ho-Shang Kung Commentary on Lao Tzu’s Tao Te Ching, translated by Dan G. Reid……

 

Oho! Thanks. I wasn't expecting a full translation straight off.

 

Certainly gives a fun alternative to the usual translations. Dan's book's going for cheap on Amazon but I'm not sure if the Kindle or paperback version would be better (Kindle being half the price)

[Gerry]

Hi Gerry

 

 The elephant can be touched by all of us and it is the same experience, it is most definitely all the baggage that stops this process happening.

 

"search and feel this spirit............ it is ever present and eternal"

FWIW, as to the pachyderm this is want I meant.  You have a practice and tradition that you follow.  I may not be an admirer of them, but I do not deny they are of value to you.  This is how you touch the Elephant.   Is it how I must touch the Elephant?

 

The last line I fully adhere to.  I see this as neither religious nor Eastern.  What I do find interesting is how closely this parallels the western Christian sense of knowing god.  

 

"The eternal God is a dwelling place, And underneath are the everlasting arms [...]"  Deuteronomy 33:27 

This was just a random search.  I think that this is why someone like Merton found a kindred spirit with the east.  Some 50 years ago I recall a book claiming that either John 1:1 was translated, or should be translated for the Eastern version of a Bible:

 

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."  

Translation: "In the beginning was the Tao, and the tao was with Tao, and the tao was Tao."

 

I am not a Christian and I am no believer in any divine.  As I have said "We are born.  We live.  We die."   Within that all that we were, all that we are, and we will be all that remains.  

[Jeff]

...

 

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."  

Translation: "In the beginning was the Tao, and the tao was with Tao, and the tao was Tao."

 

I am not a Christian and I am no believer in any divine.  As I have said "We are born.  We live.  We die."   Within that all that we were, all that we are, and we will be all that remains.  

 

 

A better translation would be something along the lines of...

 

In the beginning (time and space) was the "one", and the "one" was with the Dao, and the "one" was the Dao.

 

The "word" is energy or form or primordial vibration.  It is similar to the concept of the Heart Sutra, where form = emptiness and emptiness = form. 

[Gerry]

A better translation would be something along the lines of...

 

In the beginning (time and space) was the "one", and the "one" was with the Dao, and the "one" was the Dao.

 

The "word" is energy or form or primordial vibration.  It is similar to the concept of the Heart Sutra, where form = emptiness and emptiness = form. 

Interesting.  I've said it before, but looking at the TTC and other ancient writting, I wonder if it might not be a kind of "practice" to rewrite them in this style of modern idiom.  primordial vibration?  String theory?

 

The Christian thing was just a quirky memory from a long passed past.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Gerry

[Jeff]

Interesting.  I've said it before, but looking at the TTC and other ancient writting, I wonder if it might not be a kind of "practice" to rewrite them in this style of modern idiom.  primordial vibration?  String theory?

 

The Christian thing was just a quirky memory from a long passed past.

 

 

Not all ancient writings say the same thing or have the same meaning.  Using a modern idiom (or translation) is ultimately dependent on the level of the understanding/realization of the one trying to make it "modern".

 

String theory or quantum physics do have some parallels, but that is more relevant at what most traditions would consider "formless" layers of manifest conscious/reality.

[Geof Nanto]

Oho! Thanks. I wasn't expecting a full translation straight off.

 

Certainly gives a fun alternative to the usual translations. Dan's book's going for cheap on Amazon but I'm not sure if the Kindle or paperback version would be better (Kindle being half the price)

 

Personally, I’ll always go for the printed book where practical, and especially for reference books. E-books just don’t feel real to me. I like to be able to feel the pages, flip through them, and have the work in a separate ‘embodied’ form rather than hidden somewhere in an electronic memory chip.  

 

Having said that, I’ll confess to buying Dan Reid’s book as a Kindle download. I bought it straight after Dawei mentioned it when it first came out last year and my regular supplier of books didn’t have it and couldn’t get it. Although his commentary doesn’t particularly resonate with me, I consider it an important work that everyone interested in Daoism should at least be familiar with. Dan Reid also writes an excellent introduction and includes some notes, with examples, illustrating some of many problems of translating classical Chinese. 

 

Dan Reid dates the Heshang Gong commentary to around 130 CE. And Alan Chan notes, “Among these four [ancient] commentaries, Heshang gong's Laozi zhangju occupied the position of pre-eminence in traditional China, at least until the Song. For a long period, Wang Bi's work was relatively neglected, which explains the many textual difficulties confronting its students today. The authority of the Heshang gong commentary can be traced to its place in the Daoist religion, where it ranks second only to the Daodejing itself.”

 

Dan Reid writes, “While Heshang Gong’s contributions to linguistic preservation have been appreciated for millennia, his early articulation of the connections between Lao Tzu’s verses and the Daoist meditative practices later known as Nei Dan, is not so well acknowledged.”

 

More than just Nei Dan, I think anyone who’s done qi based work will find the beginnings of such practice outlined in Heshang Gong’s commentary. 

[cheya]

Just what I need. Another TTC translation.  

But I just caved. Reading his quotes on Twitter did me in. 

Thank you for bringing this forward.

[dawei]

 

I bought it straight after Dawei mentioned it when it first came out last year and my regular supplier of books didn’t have it and couldn’t get it. Although his commentary doesn’t particularly resonate with me, I consider it an important work that everyone interested in Daoism should at least be familiar with. Dan Reid also writes an excellent introduction and includes some notes, with examples, illustrating some of many problems of translating classical Chinese. 

 

 

Just what I need. Another TTC translation.  

But I just caved. Reading his quotes on Twitter did me in. 

Thank you for bringing this forward.

 

Finding a HSG commentary is hard to come by.  I have one by Richard Bertschinger in PDF that is no longer available.   When Dan told me of his kindle offer, I hoped others might find it useful.   I've enjoyed discussions with him.

 

But Richard Bertschinger's works can be found on Amazon, and his HSG is 'Treasuries of the Tao' (Vol 3).

 

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss/147-5464527-4120845?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=Richard+Bertschinger

[rene]

...

 

Lei Erh though taught me this:

 

The root of Heaven and Earth lies in its spirit.

Search and feel this spirit, for it ever present,

the gateway to all mysteries.

 

The spirit is the primordial Mother of the Ten Thousand Things (all things that exist)

It is ever present and eternal.

 

...

This little girl agrees, very much so. (-:

[rene]

I like this one. There`s something very potent about that borderline (erm...liminal) place between being and non-being, the paradox of seeming to be present and yet not behaving like other present things, being inexhaustible. It seems to me that this is where the power and magic lies. Not, as is often supposed, in the far wilds of emptiness, that (non) place that seems to bear no relation to the workaday dualistic world; not there but closer in, right at the doorway between being and non-being. The point is not to reside forever in the infinite; the point is to connect with the infinite and bring a little bit of it back to earth.

 

To see a World in a Grain of Sand

And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,

Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand

And Eternity in an hour

 

William Blake

Agree & well put! (-:

[Geof Nanto]

The reason I particularly like Red Pine’s Taoteching book is not so much for his insightful translation by itself, rather it’s for the combination of his translation with the selection he gives of Chinese commentary from the past 2,000 years, as well as his brief notes explaining why he translates certain characters the way he does.   He has used all the major available Chinese variations of the Daodejing such as the Wang Pi (Wang Bi),  Ho-Shang Kung (Heshang-Gong), Mawangtui A & B (Mawangdui A & B ), Kuotien (Guodian) and Fuyi editions.  (Of course, I also value many other translations and commentaries of which I have a reasonable number.)

 

As an example, here’s Chapter 6 in full from Red Pine’s book…..

 

6. 

The valley spirit that doesn't die

we call the dark womb

the dark womb's mouth

we call the source of Heaven and Earth 

as elusive as gossamer silk

and yet it can't be exhausted

 

THE SHANHAICHING says, "The Valley Spirit of the Morning Light is a black and yellow, eight-footed, eight-tailed, eight-headed animal with a human face" (9). The Shanhaiching's "valley spirit" is the moon, which runs ahead of the sun during the last eight days of its thirty-day cycle, lags behind during the first eight days, and faces the sun during its eight days of glory. For the remaining days of the month, it's too close to the sun to be visible. Like many other cultures, the ancient Chinese viewed the moon as the embodiment of the female element of creation.

 

[sHANHAICHING / SHANHAIJING  (BOOK OF MOUNTAINS AND WATERS). Shaman's guide to China's mountains and rivers. Attributed to Yu the Great (fl. 2200 B.C.), it was edited into its present form by Liu Hsin (ca. 50 B.C.-A.D. 23). A reliable English translation was published by Taiwan's National Institute for Compilation and Translation in 1985.]

 

WANG PI says, "The valley is what is in the middle, what contains nothing, no form, no shadow, no obstruction. It occupies the lowest point, remains motionless, and does not decay. All things depend on it for their development, but no one sees its shape"

 

YEN FU says, "Because it is empty, we call it a 'valley.' Because there is no limit to its responsiveness, we call it a 'spirit. Because it is inexhaustible, we say 'it doesn't die' These three are the virtues of the Tao"

 

SU CH'E says, "A valley is empty but has form. A valley spirit is empty but has no form. What is empty and has no form is not alive. So how can it die? 'Valley spirit' refers to its virtue. 'Dark womb' refers to its capacity. This womb gives birth to the ten thousand things, and we call it `dark' because we see it give birth but not how it gives birth.'

 

HSUEH HUI says, "The words Lao-tzu chooses are often determined by the demands of rhyme and should not be restricted to their primary meaning. Thus, p'in [female animal] can also be read p'in [womb]'

 

HO-SHANG KUNG says, "The valley is what nourishes. Those able to nourish their spirit do not die. `Spirit' means the spirits of the five organs: the gall bladder, the heart, the kidneys, and the spleen. When these five are injured, the five spirits leave. 'Dark’ refers to Heaven. In a person, this means the nose, which links us with Heaven. 'Womb’ refers to Earth. In a person, this means the mouth, which links us with Earth. The breath that passes through our nose and mouth should be finer than gossamer silk and barely noticeable, as if it weren't actually present. It should be relaxed and never strained or exhausted'

 

WU CH'ENG says, "The empty valley is where spirits dwell, where breath isn't exhausted. Who relaxes their breath increases their vitality. Who strains their breath soon expires.”

 

T E - C H'I N G says, "Purposeful action leads to exhaustion. The Tao is empty and acts without purpose. Hence, it can't be exhausted.”

 

SUNG CH'ANG-HSING says, "The valley spirit, the dark womb, the source of Heaven and Earth all act without acting. That we don't see them doesn't mean they don't exist."

 

LIU CHING says, "It's like the silk of a silkworm or the web of a spider: hard to distinguish and hard to grab. But then, it isn't Humankind who uses it. Only the spirit can use it.”

 

TU TAO-CHIEN says, "This verse also appears in Liehtzu: 1.1, where it is attributed to the Yellow Emperor instead of Lao-tzu. Lao-tzu frequently incorporates passages from ancient texts. We see their traces in 'thus the sage proclaims' or 'hence the ancients say.' Thus Confucius said, 'I don't create. I only relate' [Lunyu: 7.1]".

 

LIEH-TZU says, "What creates life is not itself alive" (Liehtzu: 1.1).

 

This is one of the few verses for which no significant textual variations exist. It is not present in the Kuotien texts.

Edited April 23, 2017 by Yueya

[Michael Sternbach]

Awesome! I will get Red Pine's edition.

 

Thank you for this hint, Yueya.

Edited April 23, 2017 by Michael Sternbach

[Sketch]

• Verse Six

 

The Valley has a spirit, it is not dead

Depth itself

Is a mystery a man could learn about

By  learning from Women.

The deep female mystery is the gate

The root and foundation

 of heaven and earth

Soft softness, compliance,

shaping to fit circumstances,

shapes that harbor and retain

Function without effort.

 

I'm remembering my father

Teaching me to catch 

A spiral pass with a football

Yelling “soft hands” across the field.

 

“when spirit began to degenerate into intellect, there set a reaction against it, … the dark, earth-born, feminine principle with its emotionality and instinctiveness reaching far back into the depths of time and into the roots of psychological continuity.”

— Carl Jung