Jung

[daimai]

“As a child I felt myself to be alone, and I am still, because I know things and must hint at things which others apparently know nothing of, and for the most part do not want to know. Loneliness does not come from having no people about one, but from being unable to communicate the things that seem important to oneself, or from holding certain views which others find inadmissible.” ~CG Jung

 

 

How do you guys get over this?

 

 

DM

[Michael Sternbach]

I know well what Jung is talking about. I privately communicate mostly with those I share a common understanding with - not least folks on forums like this one.

[Geof Nanto]

For Jung, he explains how he needed to communicate his experiences or else face living in isolation. I think he’s done this exceptionally well and am personally grateful for his work.  He gave me profound insights into my own experiences and made me feel not alone; more so than any other single teacher I’ve had.  I read little of Jung now but for 30 years his collected works were a constant presence in my life. The deeper I went into my own experience, the more I was able to understand his complex writings. 

 

However, even though he was widely read and admired by many, towards the end of his life he wrote that no one he knew of fully understood the totality of his concepts of reality; of how he experienced reality.  And he also notes that anyone who travels the path of individuation must experience a degree of aloneness. 

 

But Jung also notes, and I think it’s true, that whatever you feel and think that’s valid (in that it connects with deeper reality) will also be felt and thought by others throughout history.  (Otherwise it is more than likely personal imbalance; that is, illness.) Of course, the challenge can be finding such connection. For Jung his greatest relief was finding connection with the lineages of both Western and Chinese alchemy.  

 

We are lucky these days in that we have so much better access to many previously obscure and even previously secret world spiritual traditions and knowledge, but obviously many difficulties remain.  I hope this forum is able to provide you with contact with at least a few like-minded people amongst its lively mixture of wisdom and craziness.   

 

 

Edited April 24, 2022 by Yueya
Fixed formatting

[Jeff]

Ever read his last and hidden book? The "Red Book"?

 

Some very interesting stuff.

[Rishi Das]

How do you guys get over this?

 

 

We are small; a tiny spark in the infinite fire of life. Learn to get over yourself.

 

Two quotes come to mind...

 

“Be happy about your growth, in which of course you can’t take anyone with you, and be gentle with those who stay behind; be confident and calm in front of them and don’t torment them with your doubts and don’t frighten them with your faith or joy, which they wouldn’t be able to comprehend. Seek out some simple and true feeling of what you have in common with them, which doesn’t necessarily have to alter when you yourself change again and again.”

- Rainer Maria Rilke

 

“A complete sharing between two people is an impossibility and whenever it seems, nevertheless, to exist, it is a narrowing, a mutual agreement which robs either one member or both of his fullest freedom and development. But, once the realization is accepted that, even between the closest human beings, infinite distances continue to exist, a wonderful living side by side can grow up, if they succeed in loving the distance between them which makes it possible for each to see the other whole and against a wide sky!”

- Rainer Maria Rilke

[daimai]

Spot on.

 

We are small; a tiny spark in the infinite fire of life. Learn to get over yourself.

 

Two quotes come to mind...

 

“Be happy about your growth, in which of course you can’t take anyone with you, and be gentle with those who stay behind; be confident and calm in front of them and don’t torment them with your doubts and don’t frighten them with your faith or joy, which they wouldn’t be able to comprehend. Seek out some simple and true feeling of what you have in common with them, which doesn’t necessarily have to alter when you yourself change again and again.”

- Rainer Maria Rilke

 

“A complete sharing between two people is an impossibility and whenever it seems, nevertheless, to exist, it is a narrowing, a mutual agreement which robs either one member or both of his fullest freedom and development. But, once the realization is accepted that, even between the closest human beings, infinite distances continue to exist, a wonderful living side by side can grow up, if they succeed in loving the distance between them which makes it possible for each to see the other whole and against a wide sky!”

- Rainer Maria Rilke

[daimai]

Not from beginning to end, but I do believe by this point I have read at least a decent chunk of it.   So far the one I found the most fascinating was Jung's analysis of Kundalini.

 

Ever read his last and hidden book? The "Red Book"?

Some very interesting stuff.

[daimai]

How could one ever fully know another without becoming them and losing one's own point of reference?   If they fully become another, they forget they were the one observing them in the first place, no?

 

 

 

 

For Jung, he explains how he needed to communicate his experiences or else face living in isolation. I think he’s done this exceptionally well and am personally grateful for his work.  He gave me profound insights into my own experiences and made me feel not alone; more so than any other single teacher I’ve had.  I read little of Jung now but for 30 years his collected works were a constant presence in my life. The deeper I went into my own experience, the more I was able to understand his complex writings. 

 

However, even though he was widely read and admired by many, towards the end of his life he wrote that no one he knew of fully understood the totality of his concepts of reality; of how he experienced reality.  And he also notes that anyone who travels the path of individuation must experience a degree of aloneness. 

 

But Jung also notes, and I think it’s true, that whatever you feel and think that’s valid (in that it connects with deeper reality) will also be felt and thought by others throughout history.  (Otherwise it is more than likely personal imbalance; that is, illness.) Of course, the challenge can be finding such connection. For Jung his greatest relief was finding connection with the lineages of both Western and Chinese alchemy.  

 

We are lucky these days in that we have so much better access to many previously obscure and even previously secret world spiritual traditions and knowledge, but obviously many difficulties remain.  I hope this forum is able to provide you with contact with at least a few like-minded people amongst its lively mixture of wisdom and craziness.   

 

Edited April 13, 2017 by daimai

[Stosh]

One may never get over this, but I would presume that you would have to conclude that the differences were not to be held as important things to align, but as additional attitudes , that someone else shoulders.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Stosh

[Geof Nanto]

Hi Daimai,

 

When I first came to Dao Bums I was keen to discuss Jung but found little response to my posts. Jung is not well known here, though a significant few appreciate his genus. Perhaps if you ask Dawei or one the moderators to retitle this topic as something more relevant to your OP question you might get more response. Your topic isn’t really about Jung at all, rather, to my reading, it’s about feelings of aloneness.

 

Isn’t transcending the existential separation inherent in our individually embodied consciousnesses at the heart of what realisation is all about? As to your question: "How could one ever fully know another without becoming them and losing one's own point of reference?   If they fully become another, they forget they were the one observing them in the first place, no?"  Here’s a brave attempt at an answer.....

 

Exploring the Nature of True Realisation

 

Whatever events unfold outwardly, there is a continuous passive act of the observation of these events. This plain awareness is what animates the intellect, thoughts and every aspect of existence; it also gives rise to the illusory, self, and to the identification of each individual as a separate body form.

 

It affirms this identity as the real self because the body is the most tangible proof of existence. We can touch, feel and react with this tangible instrument. The ego is addition of many layers of likes, dislikes, preferences and priorities to this mind-body form, the sense of separateness, of being one of a kind, of discreteness.

 

The more we endeavour to attain salvation, the sense of separateness only gets reinforced. All chemicals such as alcohol and drugs induce a state of disconnect. A fleeting disconnect with the surroundings. This disconnect is pleasurable as it blunts the sensibilities and makes the individual immune to any unpleasantness of daily living. But it also fortifies the sense of separateness. This feeling of disconnect and indifference is momentarily blissful. These chemicals are addictive because they give an illusory, fleeting glimpse of 'spiritual' experience similar to the state of realisation.

 

The so-called chemical disconnection is 'exclusive'. In the sense that it refurbishes the sense of separateness but isolates the individual.  The state of realisation is, however, inclusive. This inclusive disconnection is an all-pervading sense of oneness, in which any connection is superfluous. Connection or disconnection is relevant only in duality or an illusion of duality. Once this illusion of duality vanishes, what remains is unity, an impersonal awareness.

 

Realisation shifts the identification of the self from the mind-body form to just plain awareness. Like a drop of the ocean. This drop, when separate from the ocean, will become acutely aware of its independent existence. The drop can see the ocean separately and this separateness gives not only itself, but also the vast ocean a separate identity as well.

 

When the drop merges in the ocean it does not destroy the physicality of the drop. The drop just merges and loses its separateness. It becomes one with the ocean. Till the point of impact, it still maintains its identity, but at the moment of impact, the drop seemingly disappears. That state of merger can thereafter not be perceived, because perception was of the drop. When the drop ceases to exist, who or what is there to perceive?

 

The disconnect that occurs by inclusion is everlasting, beyond any time-space considerations. Compassion for all life then becomes the effect rather than any imbibed virtue. The sense of unity is not even an experience because experience implies the existence of an experienced. And we all are conditioned to believe that realisation would mean probably seeing some divine light, or hearing some soulful music or a tremendous state of happiness and so on.

 

The merger automatically dissolves the ego. It also liberates one from all desires and lust for sensory gratification. The body will eventually live out its destiny, but there would be no sense of doer-ship. There would be just a residual observer who transcends even joy and sorrow. The unqualified awareness celebrates a sense of `am-ness' unadulterated by expectations and longing.The intangibility and dissolution of one's identity can scarcely be expressed by any means of communication. The final moment of oneness can be experienced only when all layers of misconception are peeled away and the real self is apperceived not as a separate identity but paradoxically the absence of any.

 

(From The Whispering Woods by Dr. Deepak Ranade.)

 

Edited April 24, 2022 by Yueya
Fixed formatting

[Nungali]

“As a child I felt myself to be alone, and I am still, because I know things and must hint at things which others apparently know nothing of, and for the most part do not want to know. Loneliness does not come from having no people about one, but from being unable to communicate the things that seem important to oneself, or from holding certain views which others find inadmissible.” ~CG Jung

 

 

How do you guys get over this?

 

 

DM

 

Daobums ?   One or two other places,  the rare aquaintance and one or two friends ... otherwise, the situation hasnt changed. I never met anyone I could communicate that to until I was about 18 .....  before that, any 'deeper' subject was responded to with 

 

[Nungali]

.... and still is - with 95% of people I meet . 

[Stosh]

.... and still is - with 95% of people I meet . 

So the correct thing to do is what IYO ?  Abandon the hope and effort .. or persist anyway. 

[cold]

It all depends upon your path and the signs therein...

For instance should you encounter a sign stating: "abandon hope all ye who enter here"

I suggest:

An immediate u turn

or should you find "your going through hell don't slow down keep on moving"

[Trunk]

“As a child I felt myself to be alone, and I am still, ... unable to communicate the things that seem important to oneself, ...” ~CG Jung

 

How do you guys get over this?

 

Really good question.

 

For me (and I'm not saying this as advice, just how it's playing out in my life), I focused on practice and theory for decades, and basically had two sets of friends: 1. dharma friends, 2. secular friends.  I basically didn't talk about dharma stuff at all with secular friends.  (Though they knew I was into it.)  It's pretty lonely. 

 

However, I didn't feel that I could communicate about internal life until I felt really well oriented in theory and practice.  That took decades.  Ok, so, then, that done, the prominent topic has become, "how do I communicate with others?".

 

(... more later ...)

[thelerner]

Really good question.

 

For me (and I'm not saying this as advice, just how it's playing out in my life), I focused on practice and theory for decades, and basically had two sets of friends: 1. dharma friends, 2. secular friends.  I basically didn't talk about dharma stuff at all with secular friends.  (Though they knew I was into it.)  It's pretty lonely. 

 

However, I didn't feel that I could communicate about internal life until I felt really well oriented in theory and practice.  That took decades.  Ok, so, then, that done, the prominent topic has become, "how do I communicate with others?".

 

(... more later ...)

Reminds me of the quote,

the difference between crazy and wise

is timing and who you discuss things with. 

[Trunk]

... ok, so, cont'd from last post ...

 

To connect with people who aren't seriously into it, you need a way to have them feel it immediately.  Short answer: show them how to create n' feel a sphere (here at 1m26s, more extensively in the video for sale).  It can be communicated and felt within a minute or two (literally).  I've been pretty socially retarded in this process and 've only shown maybe 3 or 4 people.  I have a friend who is not nearly as into it, and a lot less inhibited, and after I showed it to him he showed it to about 20 people.  He said pretty much everyone felt it right away, and it felt good.  So: feels good, is fun.

 

I have more extensive thoughts about this.  Maybe it's just my inhibition about sharing that manifesting as me making it more complex than it has to be... but I have a number of things I've been working on along this line and want to work it out more and play it out more before I share further.  The above is a start, though.  It's enough for someone to jump in, if they want to.

 

cheers,

Trunk

 

p.s.

My as-yet-to-be-realized venture of John Dao Productions is about addressing the theory gap: ability to communicate and share in a very generic way in common language, but that also has depth alignment with principle.

[Trunk]

I will say that I've recently found some inspiration in Father Guido Sarducci

 

 

... and, more dubiously, the Dude.

 

Edited April 22, 2017 by Trunk

[Trunk]

I know Sean led a qigong class at a local YMCA (or similar) some years back. It included joint rotations that could be done by elderly or those w/ mild injuries; I don't know what else was included. It seemed a healthy way to connect with others.

[Trunk]

My version of the "5 Minute University" is a fun way for friends to give mini-lectures to each other, "casual teaching":

- each 'class' is ~ 5 minutes

- and costs a nickel (or free)

- *if* any notes are involved, fits on 1 page

 

Maybe it's just silly... but, also, in normal friendly dialog, conversation is usually too free-flowing for any one person to really get to say a good chunk of stuff, to even give a mini-lecture.  This is a way to shift the conversational format to monologue / lecture / instruction for a short period.  To get agreement from the 'student' to mostly listen, to give permission to the 'teacher' to lecture / instruct.  Most adults have something they've done deep research in, and this allows opportunity for friends to casually teach each other ... in whatever they know about.  Anyone can do this, any topic they know about.  In this case, qigong.  (My 'university', lol, also offers guitar lessons.)

 

If someone doesn't want the conversation, then they won't go along with the little game, won't pay you the nickel.  It's a very low pressure fun way to opt in / out of these conversations, which are too often perceived as intrusive or offensive.  It's also a fun way to be available for more 'classes' if a 'student' is interested.

 

I'm working on a short "sphere series" of classes.

#1 create and feel the sphere (that's enough for most people right away, just the surprise and newness of, "wow, I can feel it")

#2 resonate the sphere of the hands with the core (all along the vertical, spending more time at blockages, refining expanding ~ condensing the centers along the way)

#... (and more in the series, qi spheres are applied throughout many practices in the DGS bagua qigong system)

 

 

 

As I mentioned before, there is enough to get the initial start w/ the sphere at 1m26s in the above video.

Edited April 23, 2017 by Trunk

[Trunk]

Segue back to Jung, who, for a long time, was making mandalas daily ...

I've been re-watching HBO's West World, and diggin' it. The emergence of consciousness. Extraordinarily well written. And "the maze"? Can anyone say "mandala"?

 

Ever read his last and hidden book? The "Red Book"?

Some very interesting stuff.

 

That's the one w/ all the mandalas!
 

Edited April 23, 2017 by Trunk

[Geof Nanto]

Segue back to Jung, who, for a long time, was making mandalas daily ...

 

That's the one [The Red Book] w/ all the mandalas!

 

 

Jung’s Red Book certainly is an amazing work. Whilst I wouldn’t call it primarily a book of mandalas, it certainly has some mandalas in it. However, you could say the whole book itself including text is mandala-like in the it contains the totality of Jung’s inner life in seed form.  

 

"The years, of which I have spoken to you, when I pursued the inner images, were the most important time of my life. Everything else is to be derived from this. It began at that time, and the later details hardly matter anymore. My entire life consisted in elaborating what had burst forth from the unconscious and flooded me like an enigmatic stream and threatened to break me. That was the stuff and material for more than only one life. Everything later was merely the outer classification, the scientific elaboration, and the integration into life. But the numinous beginning, which contained everything, was then."

 

These are the words of the psychologist C. G. Jung in 1957, referring to the decades he worked on The Red Book from 1914 to 1930. Although its existence had been known for more than eighty years, The Red Book was never made available to Jung's students and followers until it was published to wide acclaim in 2009.