Kunlun and spontaneous movement qigong

[松永道]

Today I discovered the practice of Kunlun Bliss. Here are my first impressions and questions. Kunlun and other tao bums, I hope to hear your opinions.

 

This sounds to me like spontaneous movement qigong or 自发动功. For ease of discusion (ie. ease on my fingers) I'll refer to this as natural qigong. Natural qigong is a byproduct of qigong/meditation practice. I began experiencing it a number of years ago and practiced it irregularly ever since. It has always seems to rebalance my body, though sometimes the positions get very intense. However I have always trusted this movement, put aside fear, and realized my body could be much stronger and more flexible than I thought it was. Everything I have experienced seems to correspond with Kunlun Bliss information.

 

But is Kunlun Bliss a cult? This process comes, as they honestly admitt, from within. Perhaps I am a bit repulsed by the act of giving it a name. The dao that can be named is not the entire dao, but then again, the many named things are dao's manifestations. So perhaps my mistrust is misplaced. So what are some cult detection criteria?

Does he charge money?

A lot of money?

Does he have a very nice car, big house, etc?

Or does Max live modestly?

Does he take advantage of students?

When someone disagrees with him how does he react?

Please skeptical tao bums add on to this list for honest Kunlun students to respond to.

 

Finally, what is natural qigong and is it a good thing? My experience has led me to believe that it is. However, there are stories of injuries, broken bones and what not. I have not heard of psychic disturbance but this is qigong so I assume this is also a risk if pursued improperly. My Chinese cultivation brother said natural qigong is not good to start too early, and that he believes because it is not systematized, it is unpredictable and potentially harmful. But he is very traditional. I have yet to ask my teacher about natural qigong, I will post his comment when I do. The chinese material I have read seems split. Some traditions say all practice will eventually become natural movement, form without form. Others say, to pursue this too early, due to lack of patience or psychic or spiritual greed will only result it bad bad mojo for the practitioner.

 

What are your thoughts wayfarers? Max certainly has ability (gongfu 功夫) but does he have the virtue (daode 道德) to temper it?

[林愛偉]

Natural Qigong I always likened it to a manner of Shen Gong (神功）Because it is without discriminating thoughts, based on intuitive, spiritual "mind".

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

Edited December 22, 2007 by 林愛偉

[Cameron]

A Kunlun board is needed thank you good night.

[Mal]

But is Kunlun Bliss a cult?

 

Nothing that extreme About all I can tell you is that I've checked out http://www.kunlunbliss.com/, read the book and am enjoying the practice of kunlun quite a lot.

 

There are a lot of kunlun threads here. Welcome and have fun getting up to speed.

[Yoda]

I'm curious about the relation between Kunlun and other spontaneous qigong forms... couldn't tell you. This is my first exposure to anything along these lines.

[Uncle Fester]

.

Edited September 19, 2021 by darebak

[Mantra68]

But is Kunlun Bliss a cult? This process comes, as they honestly admitt, from within. Perhaps I am a bit repulsed by the act of giving it a name. The dao that can be named is not the entire dao, but then again, the many named things are dao's manifestations. So perhaps my mistrust is misplaced. So what are some cult detection criteria?

Does he charge money?

A lot of money?

Does he have a very nice car, big house, etc?

Or does Max live modestly?

Does he take advantage of students?

When someone disagrees with him how does he react? Max certainly has ability (gongfu 功夫) but does he have the virtue (daode 道德) to temper it?

Hi, I'm Chris. Nice to meet you.

 

I will answer your questions.

 

No Kunlun is not a cult. Max doesn't want a bunch of followers that is why he is doing what he is doing: to empower individuals to follow themselves.

 

We charge $300 for our two-day seminars where you will learn the most secret Moashan practice and also Kunlun level 1, among other rare methods. This fee allows us to pay for travel expenses and keeps the boat afloat. Anything extra goes into paying for the costs of the next seminars. I have heard of other teachers charging $10K or more for their classes, but I don't understand much beyond that. I think we are priced well.

 

Max has no car and rents a small house in a poor area of the Big Island of Hawaii. He is supremely simple and humble. More importantly he wants to keep things that way.

 

He in no way would ever take advantage of any student. He will not tolerate anyone who tries this.

 

He is a Bodhisattva. He reacts like a Bodhisattva. He is the real thing. Meet him and you will see.

 

Best regards,

 

Chris

Edited December 23, 2007 by Mantra68

[林愛偉]

Doesn't look culty to me from the outside. A typical trait of cults is to find weaknesses in an individual and exploit them in order to make the cult member feel inferior. Sometimes this is in the form of subtle digs like "you really need to floss." They play on low self esteem. I have not seen a cult that doesn't do this to some extent.

 

Of course just because it isn't a cult doesn't mean it works. Aaaand even if it is a cult and/or Max isn't for real, the practice may still be real. Aaand even if the practice is real, that doesn't mean that whomever is presenting it knows how to guide someone in it or knows what the next step is.

 

There are many well known masters with big money. That is no measure of cultiness or virtue. I would guess that the principle of virtue that you describe, Lin, is very specific to what you have understood so far and from what sources this understanding was facilitated. I am sure there are aspects that are universal, but who is qualified to say what aspects of virtue are universal? Furthermore who is qualified to be the virtue police? Are you really so advanced that you can dispense judgment on the virtue of every practice you read about on Taobums? Is your teacher? What virtue is there in pointing the finger of virtue? Just asking. smile.gif

 

One thing is for sure, there is only one way to even have a chance of finding out about Kunlun or anything else really: meet the man, investigate the practice personally.

 

The thing that keeps me from trying out Kunlun is that I have a strong affinity with something else(no really laugh.gif ). There are some contradictions in the claims of lineage with this Kunlun bliss practice that are odd to me, but for all I know that could just be packaging. Apparently some masters will wrap teaching in a way that you need to hear it. If it was presented in another way would it be such a hit on Taobums?

 

So who the hell knows? Not I. Not by a long shot..

 

 

Hi There,

 

Its possible there is a misunderstanding, as I never asked the question if he was cult-ish, nor have I accused him of being so...

 

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[thelerner]

I was reading the book Life 102, just before I went to the Kunlun seminar in Phoenix last month. The book was by the author who had wrote the Life 101 series, a popular self help series. It was a mea culpa, each of his previous books had been 'cowritten' by his wise and beloved guru, or so it seemed.

 

Life 102 was about exposing the guru as the worst kind of immoral fraud. He went on to explain how he and others were brainwashed into believing the guy was a messiah. He also talked about the bigger picture on the hows and whys these cretins get to power. He also frequently commented that he was not a total idiot but was completely bamboozled.

 

Its a long book and I had it on my mind when I went to Phoenix. The trip was part vacation, part to learn some new techniques. What do I think of Max? I liked him. I found his system to be unique and worthwhile. I don't think he's a money grubber. $300 bucks for a 2 day seminar isn't outrageous, least not to me. More importantly there was no hook. No, you all need level II which is just $500 more.

 

There was no 'you need me', that is the hallmark of a cult. The message I got was go away, practice. I have no idea if I got any transmission. No vodoo, whaaahhhh, done while he pointed in my direction, he did readjust some of my positions while my eyes were closed. If that contained transmision ok. He could cause happy convulsions to the experienced members at will.

 

I also spent $150 for a private session with him. He told me a story or two. We went over the techniques. There was no hard sell of anything, or even a come to another seminar. During the meeting and the seminar he never put on airs. He did tell amazing stories about his teachers though. And like every sensei I've ever had told plenty of 'in my day' stories of what the really hard training is like.

 

Is he phoney? I don't know. His system seems valid to me. I don't think there's much of a chance to corroborate his lineage or his fantastic stories. Without evidence I cautiously and lightly believe. One thing I did witness and have a little expertise in (16 years) is his martial arts knowledge and practice seemed excellent.

 

The seminar had nothing to do w/ martial arts, but was held in a Kung Fu dojo. During breaks he'd play around w/ a few people doing pushing hands. His demeanor, confidence, subtleties seemed master class to me. I don't do pushing hands, but you get to recognize good wah, relaxed confidence.

 

Some of the guys here have been having good (no exceptional) experiences with the Kunlun practice. I'm starting to have increasing body movement during the practice. No bliss, but maybe it is clearing up channels. I don't know. I plan on doing it another 5 months and then reevaluate.

 

Max's system doesn't come with any philosophy. Sit, relax and do. That works for me right now.

 

 

Michael

[Guest winpro07]

There have been hundreds of exceptional experiences here in the East Bay.

I was reading the book Life 102, just before I went to the Kunlun seminar in Phoenix last month. The book was by the author who had wrote the Life 101 series, a popular self help series. It was a mea culpa, each of his previous books had been 'cowritten' by his wise and beloved guru, or so it seemed.

 

Life 102 was about exposing the guru as the worst kind of immoral fraud. He went on to explain how he and others were brainwashed into believing the guy was a messiah. He also talked about the bigger picture on the hows and whys these cretins get to power. He also frequently commented that he was not a total idiot but was completely bamboozled.

 

Its a long book and I had it on my mind when I went to Phoenix. The trip was part vacation, part to learn some new techniques. What do I think of Max? I liked him. I found his system to be unique and worthwhile. I don't think he's a money grubber. $300 bucks for a 2 day seminar isn't outrageous, least not to me. More importantly there was no hook. No, you all need level II which is just $500 more.

 

There was no 'you need me', that is the hallmark of a cult. The message I got was go away, practice. I have no idea if I got any transmission. No vodoo, whaaahhhh, done while he pointed in my direction, he did readjust some of my positions while my eyes were closed. If that contained transmision ok. He could cause happy convulsions to the experienced members at will.

 

I also spent $150 for a private session with him. He told me a story or two. We went over the techniques. There was no hard sell of anything, or even a come to another seminar. During the meeting and the seminar he never put on airs. He did tell amazing stories about his teachers though. And like every sensei I've ever had told plenty of 'in my day' stories of what the really hard training is like.

 

Is he phoney? I don't know. His system seems valid to me. I don't think there's much of a chance to corroborate his lineage or his fantastic stories. Without evidence I cautiously and lightly believe. One thing I did witness and have a little expertise in (16 years) is his martial arts knowledge and practice seemed excellent.

 

The seminar had nothing to do w/ martial arts, but was held in a Kung Fu dojo. During breaks he'd play around w/ a few people doing pushing hands. His demeanor, confidence, subtleties seemed master class to me. I don't do pushing hands, but you get to recognize good wah, relaxed confidence.

 

Some of the guys here have been having good (no exceptional) experiences with the Kunlun practice. I'm starting to have increasing body movement during the practice. No bliss, but maybe it is clearing up channels. I don't know. I plan on doing it another 5 months and then reevaluate.

 

Max's system doesn't come with any philosophy. Sit, relax and do. That works for me right now.

Michael

[Lama Tantrapa]

Dear Tao Bums,

 

I have known Max Christensen, aka Lama Dorje, since 1996, when we both lived in Hawaii. He impressed me with his stories and demonstrated a decent level of skill at that time. Some of his stories seemed rather far-fetched, but many other Qigong masters have far-fetched stories to tell, so he is not an exception. A few years later, he moved to Portland, Oregon for a while, where we met again and he taught at the same place I used to teach Tibetan Shamanic Qigong. Moving around a lot, he disappeared from my sight for quite a while (well, I spent two years living overseas during that time too) just to reappear again, this time as a teacher of Kunlun Qigong.

 

I enjoyed each meeting with Max and did not get an impression that he would be into running a cult. I have yet to read his book, which I am looking forward to. Perhaps, I will invite him as a guest on my Radio talk show The Secrets of Qigong Masters, so you can ask him questions by phone during the live interview. Please feel free to email me at [email protected] for more information about the show and the potential time of the interview with Max Christensen.

[ralis]

There seems to be some evidence that Max and Kan Sasaki are able to turn transparent. Several of Max's students have told me they witnessed this phenomenon.

 

 

ralis

[Trunk]

Dear Tao Bums,

...

 

fyi, this thread is over 3 yrs old and KL has been discussed here extensively (ad nauseum) in the interim, with mixed and very heated results.

[sifusufi]

Having scoured webland for an AVAILABLE text, or at least one youtube video of an actual posture or some type of TRAINING METHODOLOGY, of Kunlun ( not wild goose) a sequence perhaps (there is really a lot out there on Qigong et al).

 

I cannot find anything I can work with.

 

Can I have a tangible lead please.

 

If the time, travel, & tuition was gifted to me I wound gladly attend a workshop and give an objective review.

 

Be Rightous,

 

Robert

[Sloppy Zhang]

Having scoured webland for an AVAILABLE text, or at least one youtube video of an actual posture or some type of TRAINING METHODOLOGY, of Kunlun ( not wild goose) a sequence perhaps (there is really a lot out there on Qigong et al).

 

I cannot find anything I can work with.

 

Can I have a tangible lead please.

 

If the time, travel, & tuition was gifted to me I wound gladly attend a workshop and give an objective review.

 

Be Rightous,

 

Robert

 

Is the Kunlun book still available? I purchased it from Lulu. If they aren't still actively selling it, perhaps you can find someone who has an extra copy on hand to lend out.

 

If I recall correctly, the posture for the Kunlun training isn't supposed to be shared with other people outside of the seminar/book, so I believe that it hasn't been shared publicly on the web in order to pay respects to that.

 

To my knowledge, the Red Phoenix (from what I understand, a very powerful and crucial part to development) isn't supposed to be shared except for in person, which is why people who've gone to a seminar have gotten it, but those who haven't, well, haven't.

 

 

Though as an aside, it's my personal opinion/running hypothesis that if this energy/spiritual cultivation is actually real (and not just elaborate tricks played by the mind), then it is a natural part of humans, human development, and can be accessed and cultivated by any human on their own, by virtue of the fact that they are human. I look at the whole "personal transmission", "energy transfer", "seed planting", "connecting with some energy reservoir" of the school a bit sideways- if it's truly something that comes from within, then you already have it, and all you need is the technique and methods to access it. Stuff from the outside should not factor in too much.

 

Take it or leave it.

Edited February 16, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[Jetsun]

I bought a digital version from Lulu but for some reason it looks like all the English language versions of the book have been withdrawn and the book is now very rare, not sure why they have done that but kept the foreign language versions available

 

You can learn the method from Jenny Lamb's dvd though.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I bought a digital version from Lulu but for some reason it looks like all the English language versions of the book have been withdrawn and the book is now very rare, not sure why they have done that but kept the foreign language versions available

 

That's really too bad.

 

What do you know about the copyrights and stuff on the book? If someone were to start reproducing versions of the now unavailable portions of the book... what would the law have to say about that bit? I don't want to partake in anything illegal, and I certainly don't want to push others to do the same. And I certainly don't want TTB to be held responsible for any illegal activities, so I don't want to encourage any of that sort of behavior.

 

However, I do want practices to get to people who feel a need to pursue them. And if there is no way to obtain a copy of the book.....

 

You can learn the method from Jenny Lamb's dvd though.

 

Where do you get that?

[joeblast]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B002TSS92C/ref=sr_1_1_olp?ie=UTF8&qid=1297885217&sr=8-1&condition=new

1 available right now...

[zerostao]

i have a paperback copy i would sell or trade. pm if interested.

i added paperback . i do not have the digital copy.

Edited February 16, 2011 by zerostao

[Jetsun]

That's really too bad.

 

What do you know about the copyrights and stuff on the book? If someone were to start reproducing versions of the now unavailable portions of the book... what would the law have to say about that bit? I don't want to partake in anything illegal, and I certainly don't want to push others to do the same. And I certainly don't want TTB to be held responsible for any illegal activities, so I don't want to encourage any of that sort of behavior.

 

However, I do want practices to get to people who feel a need to pursue them. And if there is no way to obtain a copy of the book.....

 

 

 

Where do you get that?

 

I was just looking into this and the digital copy is in EPUB format rather than the more standard pdf and somehow it is tied so only works on my laptop and cant be copied even to my own computer, so it could be tricky..

 

Jenny Lamb's dvd can be ordered from her website, I received my copy today, it is a good quality production and has some interesting practises on it as well as the spontaneous Qigong. There isn't a huge amount of detail on the dvd about the spontaneous but you can see enough to learn how to do it and I like the way she emphasises awareness in her teachings

Edited February 16, 2011 by Jetsun

[Sloppy Zhang]

I was just looking into this and the digital copy is in EPUB format rather than the more standard pdf and somehow it is tied so only works on my laptop and cant be copied even to my own computer, so it could be tricky..

 

Well people with the physical book could always, like, scan it in, you know.

 

Maybe be lower quality, and/or require some cleanup, but if there was no other way.

 

Might not be acceptable legally, however.

[sifusufi]

http://www.amazon.co...1&condition=new

1 available right now...

 

Thanks, $52.00... I'll put that away toward meeting him in person. Appreciate it though

 

 

i have a paperback copy i would sell or trade. pm if interested.

i added paperback . i do not have the digital copy.

 

Hey! I'll keep it in mind. I'm really toying around with the idea attending a seminar.

Agressively need to hustle up the funds though.

 

Mortgage first!

 

Thanks everybody

 

Robert

[joeblast]

Thanks, $52.00... I'll put that away toward meeting him in person. Appreciate it though

 

 

 

 

Hey! I'll keep it in mind. I'm really toying around with the idea attending a seminar.

Agressively need to hustle up the funds though.

 

Mortgage first!

 

Thanks everybody

 

Robert

Yup, scarcity drives up the price...if its the color version then I think it originally sold for $29 anyway! Good luck getting to a seminar...at least Max is doing some more for those that missed out before!

[pamelais]

I bought a digital version from Lulu but for some reason it looks like all the English language versions of the book have been withdrawn and the book is now very rare, not sure why they have done that but kept the foreign language versions available

 

You can learn the method from Jenny Lamb's dvd though.

 

 

I suggest Jenny's DVD and methods...

Edited February 21, 2011 by pamelais

[taotongue]

v

Edited March 11, 2011 by taotongue