Kunlun and spontaneous movement qigong

[growant]

Taotongue,

 

Please private message me, would like to communicate offline, thanks

[taotongue]

v

Edited March 11, 2011 by taotongue

[sifusufi]

What is this man talking about?

 

 

Figuring it out on his own.

 

It was useless trying to explain to laypeople what was going on with me when the energy awoke.

 

Oui Oui

[Immortal4life]

Spontaneous, involuntary, or spasm movements are considered undersirable and dangerous side effects at best, fakery and a sham at worst.

[taotongue]

v

Edited March 11, 2011 by taotongue

[Sloppy Zhang]

Spontaneous, involuntary, or spasm movements are considered undersirable and dangerous side effects at best, fakery and a sham at worst.

 

There is a long history of "shaking medicine" - and my own personal experience shows me that the shaking is a release of stagnant energy that decreases and smooths out with time and balance (becoming a spiral or a wave). On what basis or system do you understand this to be "dangerous" just curious.. I have found spontaneous practice to be powerful and ever changing and a demonstration of how energy is moving through the body and energetic channels and extremely helpful in identifying energetic or emotional blocks that may be preventing the a healthy circulation of energy through the body. I discover more about myself from the Spontaneous Yi Gong than any other practice I have explored. I definately get much more out of the practice by staring with qigong, opens the channels and gets the energy moving prior to practicing spontaneous. Jenny Wu's DVD definately has a great demonstration of where you can go with the spontaneous practice.....

 

From what I've read in a couple other traditions, spontaneous movement is a recognized component of cultivation. Nothing inherently bad about it.

[onelove]

Threads which degenerate into gossip will be closed.

 

Threads which generate this much interest, energy, and emotion should not be closed. One person's gossip is another person's fact, and vice-versa. Everyone lives in their own projected reality....

 

Some people have had wonderful experiences with Kunlun and Max. Some people have had terrible experiences with Kunlun and Max. Some have had both. Many people are out there wondering whether they want to have a go at an experience with it. Let people say what they will, let people conclude what they will.

[idquest]

From what I've read in a couple other traditions, spontaneous movement is a recognized component of cultivation. Nothing inherently bad about it.

THis is my experience as well. Spontaneous movements would be a part of the system, a minor one but still a valid part.

[pamelais]

seriously...

[Red Pheonix]

Are you a kunloonie? sure seems like it.... no, I never liked the label at all, not my sense of humour. (from Cat)

 

Oh yeah, you are definately a kunloonie... I looked at your post history and no doubt about it!

 

I'm a kunloonie, should I feel bad or segregated? Funny cause I don't, I feel wonderful!!! It appears as if your destructive intentions don't work on me, hmmm... how can that be... unless...

Label it up all you want, in the end it's what's in a persons heart that illustrates who they are. You can't hide your heart because we see it every time you open your mouth (true story).

 

I don't know about wild goose either, but then again I don't think we should pick on people because they don't know your style. I do know a couple of forms, some of which you're most likely not familiar with; the difference is that I'm not going to beat you up about it... I'm gonna share if that's what you like (because I'm not a jerk about these things, that's not what's in my heart).

 

As for spontaneous and shaking; I would concur with the others here, nothing uncommon about it. I practice several arts that involve this and would say it's most certainly an aspect of Taoist cultivation. Many of the primordial forms involve this as well as Longmen Pai.

 

If anger and hate are in your heart then it's going to show, if love is in your heart it's going to show. What's in your heart? Don't answer that one... your actions and words will show us!

 

The aforementioned statements are only opinion

[taotongue]

v

Edited March 11, 2011 by taotongue

[Red Pheonix]

Be proud to be a kunloonie if that is what you are... why would you feel bad about it if that is what you have chosen. If it works for you thats good enough for me....

Kunloonie is a term that you or your friends have implemented in an effort to brand and bring segregation. Your techniques are only going to work on the weak minded though and make you look childish imo (I'm gonna guess that you're 16?). In the previous statement you further your agenda and branding, that's just my opinion though; the statement represents your agenda more so than the truth.

 

So if your happy and life is wondeful.....then thank YOURSELF OR do you owe your happiness to Kunlun? To Max? If so, great...... then say it proudly. I know its hard to hear some of what I have to say if you are a kunloonie... but expand your horizons go see Sifu Jenny ask her some real questions about all of it. That is unless it will destroy your vision of your rainbow butterfly garden....

I've enjoyed training with Max and have learned a few things from him. As for where I place the 'source' of my happiness; thanks for your advice, but I think you're rather off target here lol.

Expand my horizons? Ah yes, I'll run right out and take your advice because I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing

Again I see you using your branding term 'kunloonie', nice one... are your friends giggling with you? I'm laughing!

 

Why dont you ask your guru about sorcery?

 

He's actually not 'my' guru, thanks for your continuing effort to put words in my mouth though It's almost like you know me! *giggles*

 

Honestly bro, your heart is filled with echos that you need to let go of. Sure it's ok to have an opinion, but imo you are trolling because you cannot find peace in your heart. Theres a difference between making observations and making judgements. Observations allow you to see clearly, judgement binds a thing to you and makes you act like...

 

In the end no one here is perfect, including me. If we have judgement in our hearts then we leave no room for hope. Every person grows, we all change; hopefully for the better. So what sort of energy are you sending out? Energy capable of helping your brothers and sisters or energy that's intended to do the opposite? No need to answer this one, your actions clearly illustrate this result.

[taotongue]

v

Edited March 11, 2011 by taotongue

[Astral_Anima]

Kunloonie is a term that you or your friends have implemented in an effort to brand and bring segregation. Your techniques are only going to work on the weak minded though and make you look childish imo (I'm gonna guess that you're 16?). In the previous statement you further your agenda and branding, that's just my opinion though; the statement represents your agenda more so than the truth.

 

 

I've enjoyed training with Max and have learned a few things from him. As for where I place the 'source' of my happiness; thanks for your advice, but I think you're rather off target here lol.

Expand my horizons? Ah yes, I'll run right out and take your advice because I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing

Again I see you using your branding term 'kunloonie', nice one... are your friends giggling with you? I'm laughing!

 

 

 

He's actually not 'my' guru, thanks for your continuing effort to put words in my mouth though It's almost like you know me! *giggles*

 

Honestly bro, your heart is filled with echos that you need to let go of. Sure it's ok to have an opinion, but imo you are trolling because you cannot find peace in your heart. Theres a difference between making observations and making judgements. Observations allow you to see clearly, judgement binds a thing to you and makes you act like...

 

In the end no one here is perfect, including me. If we have judgement in our hearts then we leave no room for hope. Every person grows, we all change; hopefully for the better. So what sort of energy are you sending out? Energy capable of helping your brothers and sisters or energy that's intended to do the opposite? No need to answer this one, your actions clearly illustrate this result.

 

Isn't judgment, discernment and discrimination necessary to determine one's path? aren't these things tools for SAFELY progressing along the spiritual path? I believe two of the greatest master both Christ and Buddha were very discerning and discriminating. For example the stories of the Essene Christ wouldn't even accept anyone into his "inner circle" unless they were vegetarian and took an oath of non violence. Buddha as well set up 5 precepts that he had his followers take up. I should double and triple check but I'm 90% sure this was the case, please correct me if I am mistaken. I believe discernment and judgment is a crucial part of the human experience. For example we judge and label mushrooms and "poisonous" and "non poisonous" so people can tell the difference and stay safe from that which may potentially hurt them. Perhaps I am misunderstanding your post and if I am I apologize, this is just the impression it left with me. Plus I'm kinda in that mindset right now, I just posted a chapter from a book I enjoyed alla bout discerning false "gurus", lol.

 

-Astral

[Red Pheonix]

Isn't judgment, discernment and discrimination necessary to determine one's path? aren't these things tools for SAFELY progressing along the spiritual path? I believe two of the greatest master both Christ and Buddha were very discerning and discriminating. For example the stories of the Essene Christ wouldn't even accept anyone into his "inner circle" unless they were vegetarian and took an oath of non violence. Buddha as well set up 5 precepts that he had his followers take up. I should double and triple check but I'm 90% sure this was the case, please correct me if I am mistaken. I believe discernment and judgment is a crucial part of the human experience. For example we judge and label mushrooms and "poisonous" and "non poisonous" so people can tell the difference and stay safe from that which may potentially hurt them. Perhaps I am misunderstanding your post and if I am I apologize, this is just the impression it left with me. Plus I'm kinda in that mindset right now, I just posted a chapter from a book I enjoyed alla bout discerning false "gurus", lol.

 

-Astral

 

I'm making a distinguishment between observation and judgement. If you consider Christ a great master then go read proverbs as it illustrates this idea in many different ways. It IS good to make observations, but it is not good to go so far as to judge. This sort of judgement incurs karma and becomes a weight that you have to eventually let go of. So in this context we see that 'observation' is good and 'judgement' is bad. When you can walk without judgement then you avoid a lot of the karma and emotional issues that come along with it; this in no way inhibits your ability to observe and make good decisions

 

Here's a practical example, if someone I know does something bad I can react in 2 ways. I can observe their behavior and make a decision or I can make a judgement in my heart. If I simply make an observation and don't judge them then I am able to be true and to offer sincere help. If I judge them and carry that in my heart then I can no longer see them clearly and am not in a place where I can help them.

 

Hope that makes a lil more sense. This very lesson is one of the hardest I've had to learn (and am still learning); I'm quite certain that it's a condition which exists in all humans.

[taotongue]

[Astral_Anima]

I'm making a distinguishment between observation and judgement. If you consider Christ a great master then go read proverbs as it illustrates this idea in many different ways. It IS good to make observations, but it is not good to go so far as to judge. This sort of judgement incurs karma and becomes a weight that you have to eventually let go of. So in this context we see that 'observation' is good and 'judgement' is bad. When you can walk without judgement then you avoid a lot of the karma and emotional issues that come along with it; this in no way inhibits your ability to observe and make good decisions

 

Here's a practical example, if someone I know does something bad I can react in 2 ways. I can observe their behavior and make a decision or I can make a judgement in my heart. If I simply make an observation and don't judge them then I am able to be true and to offer sincere help. If I judge them and carry that in my heart then I can no longer see them clearly and am not in a place where I can help them.

 

Hope that makes a lil more sense. This very lesson is one of the hardest I've had to learn (and am still learning); I'm quite certain that it's a condition which exists in all humans.

 

Haha, Can't say I fully grasp what you're saying. How would you differentiate a judgement and an observation? Or how would you define each. I think most expressions tend to get "lost in translation".

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/judgement

 

I'm using definition 1, 4 and 6. For example "this glass is translucent" would be a judgment.

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/observation?show=0&t=1298349822

 

I'm using definition 2 and 3.

 

So basically when I say observation, I mean something that is observed and noted in thought. When I say judgment I mean a conclusion based on an observation. How would you define these terms and how would judgment hurt one spiritually?

 

I can understand how using labels supplied with preconceived notions can be harmful. for example if someone fat, saying "you eat too much" would be an assumption that hasn't been verified or justified through observation; the person may be on a strict diet and simply have a glandular problem. I can see how that would be harmful. Is that what you mean?

 

-Astral

[taotongue]

I'm making a distinguishment between observation and judgement. If you consider Christ a great master then go read proverbs as it illustrates this idea in many different ways. It IS good to make observations, but it is not good to go so far as to judge. This sort of judgement incurs karma and becomes a weight that you have to eventually let go of. So in this context we see that 'observation' is good and 'judgement' is bad. When you can walk without judgement then you avoid a lot of the karma and emotional issues that come along with it; this in no way inhibits your ability to observe and make good decisions

 

 

 

Yeah... dude..maybe you didnt catch this but let me just point out to you that your concept of something being GOOD (observation) and something else as being BAD IS A mother friggin JUDGEMENT.

Edited February 22, 2011 by taotongue

[Immortal4life]

My basis for what I said is my own experiences, I have never seen involuntary movements associated with Qi Gong ever being considered a good thing. In fact, it would be considered more of a bad thing.

 

I haven't experienced anyone making spontaneous spasms, or jumping around from doing qigong. Qigong is gentle. Now, that doesn't mean I disagree that energy will move and circulate spontaneously, or that emotions can be affected from meditation or qigong, or that I am saying shaking movements used in qigong are incorrect, or that gentle meditative spontaneous movements are bad.

 

But jerking movements, jumping around, vigorous intense shaking, spasms? I can only conclude that what is going on, if not just basically hypnosis, power of suggestion, faith healing, and psychological things going, is that some so-called spontaneous qigong are incorrect methods-

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/16722-info-on-side-effects-from-incorrect-qigong-practice/

Side-effects can include dizziness, headaches, nausea, chills in the body even when the weather is warm, or hot flushes (the inability for the body to control its own temperature), internal wind, ringing in the ears (tinnitus) or hearing voices, distention at the Dantian or chest, shortage of breath, numbness of limbs, spasms (involuntary jerking movements while lying down), palpitation and restlessness, swelling at the vertebrae, rushing up of Qi, leakage of Qi and emission.

Edited February 22, 2011 by Immortal4life

[Astral_Anima]

taotongue- Ahh it's MOUNI, there's no T, i'm sorry, I made a typo, lol.

[taotongue]

This stuff is actually cracking me up.... funny funny funny, easily amused I guess.

Edited February 22, 2011 by taotongue

[Red Pheonix]

AGAIN, ITS YOUR KUNLUN FRIENDS WHO BRANDED THE TERM. YOU CAN CHECK ON THAT IF YOU DONT BELIEVE ME. AND SECONDLY, WHATS WRONG WITH GOING TO SEE THE ORIGINATOR OF THE SYSTEM YOU PRACTICE? Is there nothing you could learn there? Even Max doesnt deny now that it came from her. Arent you even SLIGHTLY curious about what she has to share given she is the source?

 

My Kunlun friends? You know me so well *sarcasm*. Jenny is the originator and inventor of this system wow!? Why would I be curious about learning from someone with students that act like you (assuming you're student)? Then again, maybe I already know her and know that she has a better heart than this?

 

I would take you up on all of your advice, fortunately I have someone else to train with.

 

This is getting way off topic though and all you want to do is flap your gums imo; last stop for me

[taotongue]

v

Edited March 11, 2011 by taotongue

[Red Pheonix]

Haha, Can't say I fully grasp what you're saying. How would you differentiate a judgement and an observation? Or how would you define each. I think most expressions tend to get "lost in translation".

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/judgement

 

I'm using definition 1, 4 and 6. For example "this glass is translucent" would be a judgment.

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/observation?show=0&t=1298349822

 

I'm using definition 2 and 3.

 

So basically when I say observation, I mean something that is observed and noted in thought. When I say judgment I mean a conclusion based on an observation. How would you define these terms and how would judgment hurt one spiritually?

 

I can understand how using labels supplied with preconceived notions can be harmful. for example if someone fat, saying "you eat too much" would be an assumption that hasn't been verified or justified through observation; the person may be on a strict diet and simply have a glandular problem. I can see how that would be harmful. Is that what you mean?

 

-Astral

 

K, lemme take a shot at clarifying this because it's one of the most important lessons a human can learn. The dictionary won't help as I'm not using these terms as explicit reference, but rather as symbols to represent the concept I'm trying to explain.

 

Observation: when you observe a thing and do not make an emotional commitment.

Judgement: when you see a thing and make an emotional commitment.

 

Heres a repost of the example I provided;

If someone I know does something bad I can react in 2 ways. I can observe their behavior and make a decision or I can make a judgement in my heart. If I simply make an observation and don't judge them then I am able to be true and to offer sincere help. If I judge them and carry that in my heart then I can no longer see them clearly and am not in a place where I can help them.

 

In scenario 1 we have observation. Since I do not make a judgement and emotional commitment I am free to see the situation clearly and help out of sincerity vs the bias of a heart that's passed judgement.

 

In scenarion 2 we have judgement. My heart is biased and cannot observe the subject with objectivity. I have instantly blinded myself in one aspect. Aside from that, the emotional commitment creates karma (a bad substance that can be seen in the spiritual world). If you don't believe in karma then you can also say that this puts a 'bad feeling' in the heart; this is something that will stay there until you resolve it. Your subconscious has recorded 100% of your judgements and somewhere inside of you they are lurking; one day you will have to relinquish them if you want to be free. Judgement also prevents you from being able to meditate; to illustrate this simply try to meditate and see what pops up in your mind *everything that is in your heart*

 

This is a fundamental concept of the heart; 100% of the people reading this article work this way. I will state that as fact, however you should receive it as opinion.

[taotongue]

v

Edited March 11, 2011 by taotongue