The reality of Tiny House living

[Spotless]

I lived in a Tepee while going to college one spring summer fall.

 

Cut and formed a whole in the dirt that formed a seat and then put a board in front. That was my desk with typewriter.

 

Water from the stream provided my shower and drink - the showers were cold but I got used to them - so cold they could give you a headache.

 

Fish traps worked great though the alpine fish were small.

 

Camp lights and stoves did fine.

 

Washing and drying clothing was easy and dried quickly in the dry air.

[Spotless]

Lived on sailboats for several years - not large - 28-37'

 

Loved it and now my family and I live on a large powerboat with around 1500 sq feet.

 

The sailboats were certainly only a few hundred square feet but very adequate and I sailed them frequently all over the place.

Very self contained. Water was heated either by dockside electricity or engine heat on passages. Refrigeration was 12v.

Could sail for years on a single tank of fuel - mainly run to play the stereo, keep things cold and keep the engine happy ( and when going and coming from port - though I often just sailed into port).

Edited April 16, 2017 by Spotless

[thelerner]

Could sail for years on a single tank of fuel - mainly run to play the stereo, keep things cold and keep the engine happy ( and when going and coming from port - though I often just sailed into port).

There has got to be an amazing story on how you went from teepee to large powerboat.  If you have time and the inclination, I'd love to read about it. 

[gendao]

Lived on sailboats for several years - not large - 28-37'

 

Loved it and now my family and I live on a large powerboat with around 1500 sq feet.

 

The sailboats were certainly only a few hundred square feet but very adequate and I sailed them frequently all over the place.

Very self contained. Water was heated either by dockside electricity or engine heat on passages. Refrigeration was 12v.

Could sail for years on a single tank of fuel - mainly run to play the stereo, keep things cold and keep the engine happy ( and when going and coming from port - though I often just sailed into port).

Sounds like an interesting experience, I wonder what your boat & monthly cost is? 

They ended up buying a pre-owned 40-foot Catalina cruiser for $150,000, with mortgage payments of about $800 a month.

In an average month, it costs them around $2,200 to live on the boat

And as you have cut out the big real estate cost of actually owning any land...you also can't grow your own food forest.  You are essentially still a rootless nomad.

Edited April 17, 2017 by gendao

[silent thunder]

those rooted nomads are pesky

 

never nomading anywhere...

[Spotless]

Sounds like an interesting experience, I wonder what your boat & monthly cost is?

 

And as you have cut out the big real estate cost of actually owning any land...you also can't grow your own food forest. You are essentially still a rootless nomad.

Where did you get the second quote about the Catalina boat? I would be surprised if it was me - that is a very high price for a Cat 40.

 

But let's look at some scenarios you may be missing out on:

 

One friend and his wife have lived on their 36' Trawler for around 20 years - they do not pay liveaboard fees because they were able to purchase a home in the Sierra Foothills on a large lot with running water and a fair amount of gold dredging rich areas (with the money they saved from living aboard) - so they live there on weekends and on home/work days. They also travel too and live in China from time to time which is where his wife is from. They have always paid about $350 a month to live on a marina surrounded by million dollar plus homes. Current rent for a studio in their marina area is running $2800-$3500 per month. They have a 15 yr mortgage.

 

Their current mortgage plus the marina birth is less than $1600 per month and they will be able to burn their mortgage soon.

 

In 2008 they did not lose everything they owned and have never been stressed by living expenses in their entire adult lives. Their kids went off to college and they were able to handle that easily as well.

 

--

 

It is also unfortunate that you view someone able to move as " rootless". Some would say "not tied down, unfettered and free". Free to be rooted in the present as opposed to the future scenarious of 30 years of $3500-6500 a month mortgage payments. I live in an area where that is what the payments are on the low side unless you happen to have 300k to 1M cash for a down payment in addition to the 20% from financing.

 

The schools here are very good for our son and getting even better all the time. I drive a dinghy to the movies and over to the yacht club - I can also sail there or walk over there. Seals and rays and Egrets and beautiful birds are our backyard and front yard and side yards. And growing herbs and other foods is no problem. We have no mortgage.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Spotless

[zanshin]

I found this a funny read.

 

http://terribleminds.com/ramble/2016/04/05/an-open-letter-to-tiny-house-hunters/

[blue eyed snake]

I found this a funny read.

 

http://terribleminds.com/ramble/2016/04/05/an-open-letter-to-tiny-house-hunters/

   

[gendao]

Where did you get the second quote about the Catalina boat? I would be surprised if it was me - that is a very high price for a Cat 40.

 

But let's look at some scenarios you may be missing out on:

 

One friend and his wife have lived on their 36' Trawler for around 20 years - they do not pay liveaboard fees because they were able to purchase a home in the Sierra Foothills on a large lot with running water and a fair amount of gold dredging rich areas (with the money they saved from living aboard) - so they live there on weekends and on home/work days. They also travel too and live in China from time to time which is where his wife is from. They have always paid about $350 a month to live on a marina surrounded by million dollar plus homes. Current rent for a studio in their marina area is running $2800-$3500 per month. They have a 15 yr mortgage.

 

Their current mortgage plus the marina birth is less than $1600 per month and they will be able to burn their mortgage soon.

 

In 2008 they did not lose everything they owned and have never been stressed by living expenses in their entire adult lives. Their kids went off to college and they were able to handle that easily as well.

 

--

 

It is also unfortunate that you view someone able to move as " rootless". Some would say "not tied down, unfettered and free". Free to be rooted in the present as opposed to the future scenarious of 30 years of $3500-6500 a month mortgage payments. I live in an area where that is what the payments are on the low side unless you happen to have 300k to 1M cash for a down payment in addition to the 20% from financing.

 

The schools here are very good for our son and getting even better all the time. I drive a dinghy to the movies and over to the yacht club - I can also sail there or walk over there. Seals and rays and Egrets and beautiful birds are our backyard and front yard and side yards. And growing herbs and other foods is no problem. We have no mortgage.

Ok, let me just clarify the nuts & bolts here first?

 

I assume their 36' trawler cost at least $100,000? 

And if their house mortgage is only $1250 (1600-350), then I would estimate that they had only borrowed around $170,000 for their house?

So, now we're up to somewhere around $270,000 for a land house...AND a 36' boat.  The combination of which definitely does not qualify as just "tiny house" living, btw...

 

But these figures all seem VERY lowball if the true real estate market indicators in that locale are million dollar houses and $2800-$3500 STUDIO rents.  Let's say an average studio unit is 500 sqft - that would then equal around $6/sqft rent.  Which would make it amongst the costliest areas in the country!

 

So, I don't see how their land house could be so cheap there - unless they had gobsmacked down a monumental down payment?

 

 

Now, rootlessness is a whole emotional topic within itself - that needs to be deeply considered emotionally, not mentally (as above).  Forget about dollars and cents, it has to do with belonging, feeling accepted, or not fitting in.  Tribalism.  Family.  Home.  And by converse, nomadicism also often has to do with feeling abandoned, a lack of options, and escapism.  There's just a lot of various possible themes and feelings at play here.

 

Or did you forgo living in a college dorm for a dirt tent simply because you preferred the outdoors so much?  Was that due to lack or freedom?  Because TRUE freedom comes from the OPPOSITE of lack.

Edited April 17, 2017 by gendao

[Spotless]

They bought the Trawler for $36k

The land with house 3 hours out of San Francisco area was $62k in a government auction drug dealer foreclosure.

 

Check prices in Sausalito CA - that is their area - though they are now in SF area by the Ball Park I believe.

 

They did "tiny house" living on their Trawler and were able to save for the place they bought in the hills because of that.

 

Anyway - let's put this to rest - you may never "get" it - that is fine.

[gendao]

They bought the Trawler for $36k

The land with house 3 hours out of San Francisco area was $62k in a government auction drug dealer foreclosure.

 

Check prices in Sausalito CA - that is their area - though they are now in SF area by the Ball Park I believe.

 

They did "tiny house" living on their Trawler and were able to save for the place they bought in the hills because of that.

 

Anyway - let's put this to rest - you may never "get" it - that is fine.

Ok, so I'm guessing that a $36K trawler is basically a floating hoopty, then?

 

And a foreclosure bid - OK, well that would be about the only way you could possibly get a house for $62K there.  I wonder what the actual market value is now - as even condos go for $1/2 million in Sausalito?  Obviously an incredibly risky gamble upfront...  But even that doesn't really make sense - because your mortgage for $62K, even with $0 down, should then be more like just $450/month - not $1250?

 

And now they have suddenly moved by the AT&T stadium in San Francisco?  Did they just sell the Sausalito house and buy a new one - or just trawl over there?  Because otherwise, mere condos there seem to start at over $750K.

This is what a $350,000 house in San Francisco looks like

It is a worn-down, decomposing wooden shack that was built in 1906, and the interior is unlivable in its current condition. The San Francisco house is also selling for $350,000.

The 765-square-foot unit

the home is selling for $458 per square foot in an area where the average square foot is $1,066.

Sorry for asking, but I'm just curious how a couple can really buy a boat and a house in the Bay Area for $100K.  When that area has nearly the highest housing cost in the entire nation.  And some of your numbers don't seem to add up, unless I'm missing something.  Some stuff has got to give...and that's what I'm genuinely curious about.  Bidding on a foreclosed home was one caveat.  I'm just wondering what else there is too?

 

Again, this thread is about the REALITY of living more "modestly" - and how that actually pans out in real life?

Edited April 18, 2017 by gendao

[Spotless]

Ok, so I'm guessing that a $36K trawler is basically a floating hoopty, then?

 

And a foreclosure bid - OK, well that would be about the only way you could possibly get a house for $62K there.  I wonder what the actual market value is now - as even condos go for $1/2 million in Sausalito?  Obviously an incredibly risky gamble upfront...  But even that doesn't really make sense - because your mortgage for $62K, even with $0 down, should then be more like just $450/month - not $1250?

 

And now they have suddenly moved by the AT&T stadium in San Francisco?  Did they just sell the Sausalito house and buy a new one - or just trawl over there?  Because otherwise, mere condos there seem to start at over $750K.

 

Sorry for asking, but I'm just curious how a couple can really buy a boat and a house in the Bay Area for $100K.  When that area has nearly the highest housing cost in the entire nation.  And some of your numbers don't seem to add up, unless I'm missing something.  Some stuff has got to give...and that's what I'm genuinely curious about.  Bidding on a foreclosed home was one caveat.  I'm just wondering what else there is too?

 

Again, this thread is about the REALITY of living more "modestly" - and how that actually pans out in real life?

You need to actually read what I wrote - I stated the house and land they purchased was 3 hours away from SF up in the Sierra Foothills.

 

Also - you can buy a perfectly great 36' Trawler for $36,000.

They moved the Trawler to a marina near the ball park.

They have made some improvements to the house in the foothills so they have some mortgage but not much.

 

Boats right now are cheap if you have any acumen for finding deals on them - even if you don't there are great deals all over the place.

[silent thunder]

My experience growing up is similar to what your friends have done Spotless.  It's really a savvy way to build capital and to enjoy a lovely lifestyle without needing to be a slave to loans.

 

My Father was an avid boatsman so it was a given that he was going to have a boat somehow, someway... and my stepmother was an accomplished, although amateur architect. 

 

She designed and built her first home before meeting my Dad, saving herself a ton of money in the process.  Doing this, she ended up with a tiny mortgage and a fine house right on the banks of the Mississippi.

 

My Father then went hunting around and purchased our first small houseboat for "a song and a handjob" as he used to put it.  It was run down but sound, so all it needed was some elbow greese and a bit of know how to turn it into something beautiful again... and that they did.

 

I was four.  That Spring and Summer we spent every spare minute at the dry dock where he and my step mother hand sanded and refinished her entirely, while I played with my trucks and ate giant apples in the shade of the boat.  They tuned up the engine, we used it for a couple years, heading as far south as Missouri on one trip, then he sold it for a profit and moved up to a fiberglass model.  He did say, he'd never go back to wood because of the upkeep, but I still recall the glow of the wood under the sealant with love.  That boat veritably glowed. 

 

Being savvy and always alert for deals, he was able to upgrade his boat every couple of years, while never needing to stretch his budget.  In boating communities, there are always folks needing to downsize, or wanting to upsize, so boat deals abound, but particularly when the rest of the economy is tanking. 

 

I have another friend (now passed) who lived on his boat for the last twenty-some years of his life.  When he wanted to earn some extra cash, he'd port here in LA and build scenery with us for a time, then get back in his home and sail it away again.  (He was one of the most grounded nomading nomads I have ever known, btw)

 

Eventually they ended up selling her original home and buying a smaller condo.  With the extra capitol from that sale, they built a small cabin on the north shore of Grand Cayman.  Indeed, they had enough capital to organize several other land owners and ran the utilities along the then undeveloped North Shore of the island.  My Dad purchased two lots for $7,000 each.  He sold the extra lot some twenty years later for $250,000.   

 

Again, the family now all grown, we all chipped in and knocked out the construction saving cash once again (it also wasn't a tough sell to get us to go down there for a month to help, build in the morning, scuba in the afternoon).  My stepmother being brilliant designed and poured the entire structure (aside from the roof) out of concrete, so hurricanes were a non-issue. 

 

Many options abound for those with the impetus and who aren't afraid of some good strong labour.

 

edit:  why i spell so bad still so late in life?

Edited April 18, 2017 by silent thunder

[gendao]

You need to actually read what I wrote - I stated the house and land they purchased was 3 hours away from SF up in the Sierra Foothills.

 

Also - you can buy a perfectly great 36' Trawler for $36,000.

They moved the Trawler to a marina near the ball park.

They have made some improvements to the house in the foothills so they have some mortgage but not much.

 

Boats right now are cheap if you have any acumen for finding deals on them - even if you don't there are great deals all over the place.

OK, well I think I'm seeing their bigger picture now.

 

They got a $36K trawler and a land house 3 hours away from it.  Because there's no way they could afford a house any closer - so must commute 3 hrs each way between their boat and house.  For most people, this would be an intolerable commute to make weekly or more.  But that's the best they can do there, without being multimillionaires.

 

And they had bought their land house for $62K, but probably have had to put another $100K+ into it for renos.  That's why their mortgage is now $1250, and not $450.

 

It's normally a big gamble to buy a foreclosed house - because you could get a steal, a lemon, or something in-between.  However, given that you already KNOW you would end up with a dilapidated shack in SF for $350K, you likely wouldn't do any worse for farrrr less than that.

 

 

In short, the trade-offs they made to find affordable (~$200K) housing in the Bay Area were bidding on a foreclosed home (high-risk) and commuting between that home and a cheap boat 3 hrs away.

 

OK, reality-checked!

Edited April 18, 2017 by gendao

[thelerner]

OK, reality-checked!

Are you Sure?  You don't want to fly down to SanFrancisco or whereever and ask for paper work, double check the numbers,  get lie detector tests.. a home inspector.. witnesses who'll collaborate.. You can't be too careful or use too many charts. 

[Spotless]

OK, well I think I'm seeing their bigger picture now.

 

They got a $36K trawler and a land house 3 hours away from it.  Because there's no way they could afford a house any closer - so must commute 3 hrs each way between their boat and house.  For most people, this would be an intolerable commute to make weekly or more.  But that's the best they can do there, without being multimillionaires.

 

And they had bought their land house for $62K, but probably have had to put another $100K+ into it for renos.  That's why their mortgage is now $1250, and not $450.

 

It's normally a big gamble to buy a foreclosed house - because you could get a steal, a lemon, or something in-between.  However, given that you already KNOW you would end up with a dilapidated shack in SF for $350K, you likely wouldn't do any worse for farrrr less than that.

 

 

In short, the trade-offs they made to find affordable (~$200K) housing in the Bay Area were bidding on a foreclosed home (high-risk) and commuting between that home and a cheap boat 3 hrs away.

 

OK, reality-checked!

 

they don't really commute - they have a city home on the waterfront - and they have a house with several acres in the hills.

they can telecommute as well and travel each year to distant lands for about 6 weeks.

 

$350K will probably not buy a small build able lot in SF.

 

Apparently they also sold some of the timber on the land to pay for some of the improvements.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Spotless

[qicat]

I live in Bay Area and I am getting out of it. The junkiest houses are pass 1M and the rents are starting at 3.5K. Traffic is horrible ( you never realize how much it affects you until you sit in traffic for 45 min to go 5 miles..) and quality of life overall is just plain bad. I was thinking of getting land and putting something on it, but permits here in CA are prohibitive ( vs moving somewhere else and getting a house with land price wise).

[gendao]

they don't really commute - they have a city home on the waterfront - and they have a house with several acres in the hills.

they can telecommute as well and travel each year to distant lands for about 6 weeks.

 

$350K will probably not buy a small build able lot in SF.

 

Apparently they also sold some of the timber on the land to pay for some of the improvements.

One friend and his wife have lived on their 36' Trawler for around 20 years - they do not pay liveaboard fees because they were able to purchase a home in the Sierra Foothills on a large lot with running water and a fair amount of gold dredging rich areas (with the money they saved from living aboard) - so they live there on weekends and on home/work days.

I meant commuting between their land house and boat.  Which you are saying that they drive 6 hrs roundtrip to/from at least every weekend (if not more), correct?