what are the 3 most important...

[Marblehead]

Ok MH, I wasn't sure about post 22.

 

I sometimes speak with a forked tongue.

[Geof Nanto]

they can never teach anyone to be exactly like they are, they can never teach an adding to or taking away from that which can not be added to or taken away from,  they can never teach putting "Mystery" into a definitive and limited box. 

 

Thanks Bob. That’s a good encapsulation. I drafted something but I’m not happy with it. Instead I just add a couple of quotations relevant to my own situation….

 

 “A teacher can teach many things, but only life experience can teach brokenness.” Or in George Orwell’s words, “In real life it is always the anvil that breaks the hammer.”

 

 

And from Carl Jung: “A man [or woman] who has not passed through the inferno of his [or her] passions has never overcome them.  They then dwell in the house next door, and at any moment a flame may dart out and set fire to his own house. Whenever we give up, leave behind, and forget too much, there is always the danger that the things we have neglected will return with added force."

[3bob]

Yueya,  Your last post brings up a major point!  Thank you for submitting that.

 

Btw, I'm thinking about a Bible related saying/tangent, namely:

1 Corinthians 10:13

"No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it."

 

I've had some trouble getting a full handle on where I've underlined part of this verse above - being that many of us have been tempted beyond what we can bear - and at times I think it has also been applied by teachers or schools.

 

I'm interested in hearing how you or anyone else sees it?  

Edited April 18, 2017 by 3bob

[Sudhamma]

There are more than three revelations that my teacher told me. I will just list three which I think are generally of interest:

1. it is difficult to find a good teacher or a good student, as both must satisfy the 6 'harmonies'. A teacher is like a father, honor, obey and respect him. A student is like your child, love and protect him/her always. Learn the techniques well, understand and apply them well in fluid situations. Teach well, and in time teach all that you know, and hope that your student can surpass you.

2. It is not learning a variety of forms to be a perfect martial artist, rather it is enough to learn and practice well a single form.

    By extension, 'be afraid of one who practise a single kick a thousand times'.

3. Be humble and don't be a show-off. No one system is better than the other, for each technique regardless of how powerful it is has its counter, even iron shirt has its weakness. There is always one that is better than you.

[Geof Nanto]

Yueya,  Your last post brings up a major point!  Thank you for submitting that.

 

Btw, I'm thinking about a Bible related saying/tangent, namely:

1 Corinthians 10:13

"No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it."

 

I've had some trouble getting a full handle on where I've underlined part of this verse above - being that many of us have been tempted beyond what we can bear - and at times I think it has also been applied by teachers or schools.

 

I'm interested in hearing how you or anyone else sees it?  

 

 Everyone must find their own path. All I can do is speak of mine which has been to follow my desires. That way I’ve mostly worked them out of my system.  I’ve burnt through most all of my passions, so that now they’re empty of meaning. They hold no power over me. I’m glad I’ve done this whilst young enough to enjoy them and strong enough to endure the brokenness I’ve suffered along the Way as a result.  

 

Only in retrospect can I conceptualise my path as a yin path. A path of surrender and a slow refinement of my innate inner emptiness until now I’m able to gain a large degree of fulfilment from the subtle flow of Dao itself, rather than more gross attempts at fulfilment.  

 

Hence I don’t relate at all to these religious prohibitions against desire; this equating of the very desires that make us human and connect us with life as temptations of the devil.  But if resisting temptation is a path others desire to follow, I say go for it!

[Jeff]

Yueya,  Your last post brings up a major point!  Thank you for submitting that.

 

Btw, I'm thinking about a Bible related saying/tangent, namely:

1 Corinthians 10:13

"No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it."

 

I've had some trouble getting a full handle on where I've underlined part of this verse above - being that many of us have been tempted beyond what we can bear - and at times I think it has also been applied by teachers or schools.

 

I'm interested in hearing how you or anyone else sees it?

 

The answer to your question is in the following verses right after your Corinthian's quote...

 

1 Corinthians‬ ‭10:14-17‬

“Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.”

 

Translating... The "way out" is found in realizing that "oneness" (in Christ). And as Jesus said, that "kingdom of God" is found inside of you.

‭‭

[silent thunder]

 

 Everyone must find their own path. All I can do is speak of mine which has been to follow my desires. That way I’ve mostly worked them out of my system.  I’ve burnt through most all of my passions, so that now they’re empty of meaning. They hold no power over me. I’m glad I’ve done this whilst young enough to enjoy them and strong enough to endure the brokenness I’ve suffered along the Way as a result.  

 

Only in retrospect can I conceptualise my path as a yin path. A path of surrender and a slow refinement of my innate inner emptiness until now I’m able to gain a large degree of fulfilment from the subtle flow of Dao itself, rather than more gross attempts at fulfilment.  

 

Hence I don’t relate at all to these religious prohibitions against desire; this equating of the very desires that make us human and connect us with life as temptations of the devil.  But if resisting temptation is a path others desire to follow, I say go for it!

 

Your words and experience resonate deeply with me Yueya.  The prohibitions and endless rules have always resonated in a very tinny, and superficial manner.  To focus there, has always seemed to me to be looking at the finger and missing the Moon.

 

The words that keep arise to describe my experience with this are saturation and transcendence.

 

I veritably saturated myself in the experience of my desires and pursuits... the seeking.  Always seeking for something external to validate my instinctual process and to reveal the truth of my inner essential nature.  Yet this effort and saturation, this pursuit and expenditure of energy cannot be maintained and thus has its own resolution built into the very fabric of its process.

 

As the Dao says... "a drawn bow settles in balance" and in line with 3bobs' quote from the bible about temptation not exceeding the level of our endurance... when my desires finally peaked, when I was saturated utterly, they were transcended.

 

They didn't dissolve per se, as they still resonate somewhere in my process, yet they have no gravity and have lost their teeth so to speak. 

 

They no longer pulse with the gravity to used to draw me out of the truth of my essential beingness into the mind stuff of their make up, or ifand when there is still some sway from time to time, they no longer have the teeth to hold me in this and I simply release them and settle in my own essential nature. 

 

simple being.

[3bob]

Getting off the OP but no biggy:

 

Very sadly, and sometimes horrifically a lot of people have been given more than they can bear as in suicide, homicide, and other serious actions that can not be recovered from or undone!  (excepting by what some concepts speculate about or projected sayings and or platitudes there may be concerning such matters?)  So I think that Bible verse really leaves a lot to be desired and it's not just a subject in the context of the Bible verse but for all humans beings if or when they are in or going through such troubles!  

[Geof Nanto]

Your words and experience resonate deeply with me Yueya.  The prohibitions and endless rules have always resonated in a very tinny, and superficial manner.  To focus there, has always seemed to me to be looking at the finger and missing the Moon.

 

The words that keep arise to describe my experience with this are saturation and transcendence.

 

I veritably saturated myself in the experience of my desires and pursuits... the seeking.  Always seeking for something external to validate my instinctual process and to reveal the truth of my inner essential nature.  Yet this effort and saturation, this pursuit and expenditure of energy cannot be maintained and thus has its own resolution built into the very fabric of its process.

 

As the Dao says... "a drawn bow settles in balance" and in line with 3bobs' quote from the bible about temptation not exceeding the level of our endurance... when my desires finally peaked, when I was saturated utterly, they were transcended.

 

They didn't dissolve per se, as they still resonate somewhere in my process, yet they have no gravity and have lost their teeth so to speak. 

 

They no longer pulse with the gravity to used to draw me out of the truth of my essential beingness into the mind stuff of their make up, or ifand when there is still some sway from time to time, they no longer have the teeth to hold me in this and I simply release them and settle in my own essential nature. 

 

simple being.

 

Excellent. Thank you. 

 

The only part that’s been different for me relates to this….

 

“Yet this effort and saturation, this pursuit and expenditure of energy cannot be maintained and thus has its own resolution built into the very fabric of its process.  As the Dao says... "a drawn bow settles in balance" and in line with 3bobs' quote from the bible about temptation not exceeding the level of our endurance... when my desires finally peaked, when I was saturated utterly, they were transcended.”

 

I suspect you had a natural balance that I lacked. When I was younger I couldn’t break the addictive loop of my desires. To give a powerful example, in the 1970’s I had a raging heroin habit.   I started with the conscious intent of following it because it brought me great pleasure and stopping it when it ceased to bring me pleasure. It took a number of years of heavy use financed by dealing, but by the end of the 70’s the enjoyment had gone. My wealthy dealing days were over and I was living on the street.  Every time I used heroin again it felt meaningless and whilst stoned I was determined to give it away. Yet as soon as withdrawals started, I could think of nothing but to scam some way to get more. And so the hopeless addictive cycle continued into despair.   I needed much support from a variety of sources over an extended period of time to break the habit.  

 

In the decades since then I’ve had many teaching and done much qi based praxis. This, and much trial and error, has slowly given be a balance more and more in harmony with Dao, so that now I am able to self correct like you describe. Or more correctly, it’s not me that corrects myself but the increasing openness to the flow of the Dao that my praxis has allowed is what tells me I need to correct. And now, thanks to these many teachings, I have a wealth of resources to use to achieve that correction.  My sensitivity to lack of attunement with the flow of Dao has become increasingly subtle over time so that now I only need to stray a little from harmony to feel uncomfortable.  When I do stray my life begins to feel meaningless. Hence my life’s path becomes clearer and clearer. 

 

Once some semblance of balance is achieved – or at least a genuine openness to ask for help is found - then it seems to me this Biblical passage Bob referenced - "No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it."  - has validity, though I baulk at the language.  It's not how I'd express it. For me, it’s all about the slow and painful process of surrendering ego into a greater reality. And however a person conceptualises and so names this reality depends on which spiritual tradition they follow. I personally have had little contact with the Christian conceptualisation. 

[3bob]

Btw, I'm pretty sure Taoists could also find themselves with to much to bear or to be tempted in similar ways, or at least in magnitude as anyone else could - being that we are talking about what is common for most human beings to go through...

thus with some word changes many sayings from different schools could be found to correlate even though we may baulk at certain worded concepts that we don't normally use.  (so why am I stating the obvious or rambling on - maybe it will come to me later?)

[Geof Nanto]

Btw, I'm pretty sure Taoists could also find themselves with to much to bear or to be tempted in similar ways, or at least in magnitude as anyone else could - being that we are talking about what is common for most human beings to go through...

thus with some word changes many sayings from different schools could be found to correlate even though we may baulk at certain worded concepts that we don't normally use.  (so why am I stating the obvious or rambling on - maybe it will come to me later?)

 

Yes, I thought I was implying this. That Biblical quotation made it into NA wisdom with the saying that a recovering addict working the 12 step program will never be given more than she or he can handle. But even within that fellowship it was controversial and disputed. Some would say that when a recovering addict uses again, they were given too much. 

 

I'd prefer to leave why some people make it and others don't in the realm of the unknown. And that applies to life, illness and death in general. We have a great human need for sense making and certainty, yet ultimately life rests on mystery. Of that I'm certain! 

Edited April 19, 2017 by Yueya

[3bob]

a lot to ponder there...I don't have much to say in doubt about the way elemental forces like weather, earthquakes, fires, floods or the positive bounty of nature and such take their course and affect the life, illness or death of beings - but it's the more twisting and turning of psychological effects that don't seem fair and impartial like the elemental forces are that can raise doubts. 

[Geof Nanto]

Yes, much to ponder. Underneath what I’ve written there’s a much deeper level of insight I’ve gained along the way that’s far too nebulous (magical) to express in concrete terms. There’s awesomely subtle yet powerfully intelligent invisible ‘forces’ at work beyond my ken.  Such glimpses can perhaps only be evoked in words by a skilled poet. (Or in the mystery traditions of all religions.) And even then the imagery can probably only be recognised by someone who’s glimpsed the same hidden realities.  I’m sure that the many people on this forum who’ve had powerful inner experiences know what I mean. 

 

I’ll finish with a quotation that’s relevant to my previous posts….

 

Anything can be a path, even a demon.

Anything can be a demon, even a path.

 

 

Edit for clarity: By “There’s awesomely subtle yet powerfully intelligent invisible ‘forces’ at work beyond my ken” I’m referring to infinitely wise ‘beings / gods’ beyond the dualities of good and evil. 

Edited April 19, 2017 by Yueya

[silent thunder]

*deep bow*

 

thanks for sharing mate... that is profoundly potent stuff.

[3bob]

Yueya, Thanks for sharing, that's not an easy pill to get down and it reminds me of the following saying:

 

Meditation in Affliction

- Gyalwa Longchenpa

 

Assailed by afflictions, we discover Dharma
And find the way to liberation. Thank you, evil forces!

When sorrows invade the mind, we discover Dharma
And find lasting happiness. Thank you, sorrows!

Through harm caused by spirits we discover Dharma
And find fearlessness. Thank you, ghosts and demons!

Through people's hate we discover Dharma
And find benefits and happiness. Thank you, those who hate us!

Through cruel adversity, we discover Dharma
And find the unchanging way. Thank you, adversity!

Through being impelled to by others, we discover Dharma
And find the essential meaning. Thank you, all who drive us on!

We dedicate our merit to you all, to repay your kindness....

 

(I'd add this caution: it's takes a +7 to hold a -7 in check, thus not for an idealistic +1 to take on a -7

[Jeff]

Yueya, Thanks for sharing, that's not an easy pill to get down and it reminds me of the following saying:

 

Meditation in Affliction

- Gyalwa Longchenpa

 

Assailed by afflictions, we discover Dharma

And find the way to liberation. Thank you, evil forces!

When sorrows invade the mind, we discover Dharma

And find lasting happiness. Thank you, sorrows!

Through harm caused by spirits we discover Dharma

And find fearlessness. Thank you, ghosts and demons!

Through people's hate we discover Dharma

And find benefits and happiness. Thank you, those who hate us!

Through cruel adversity, we discover Dharma

And find the unchanging way. Thank you, adversity!

Through being impelled to by others, we discover Dharma

And find the essential meaning. Thank you, all who drive us on!

We dedicate our merit to you all, to repay your kindness....

 

(I'd add this caution: it's takes a +7 to hold a -7 in check, thus not for an idealistic +1 to take on a -7

If one thinks they are a +7 holding a -7 in check, then they are definitely going to run into a -9...

[3bob]

Jeff, -7 or the 7th hell, (if one uses that term) is the end of the road -- btw. it is also said in some schools that +7 continues on to +14 (or seven steps above the crown)

Edited April 20, 2017 by 3bob

[Jeff]

Jeff, -7 or the 7th hell, (if one uses that term) is the end of the road -- btw. it is also said in some schools that +7 continues on to +14 (or seven steps above the crown)

So then are you saying that there are 7 levels of hell, and 14 levels of heaven? And your earlier comment was that it takes a being from the seventh heaven to fight/take on a demon from the lowest hell?

 

And what do you mean by the end of the road?

 

Thanks.

[3bob]

is that what the Book of Rev. says  to you?  (after correlation)

[Marblehead]

is that what the Book of Rev. says  to you?  (after correlation)

 

Having read that Book it says to me that someone was eating too many mushrooms and smoking too much weed.

[rex]

Mushrooms and psychedelics? Soon to be available from your doctor (Ok I'm exaggerating):

First evidence found that LSD produces 'higher' level of consciousness, scientists claim

[Jeff]

is that what the Book of Rev. says  to you?  (after correlation)

As far as I know, the book of Revelations says nothing about seven heavens (or 14). There were seven different churches and angels associated with them in the Christian world at that time. Sure you are not thinking of Hinduism or maybe Dante's play?

[Jeff]

Having read that Book it says to me that someone was eating too many mushrooms and smoking too much weed.

Definitely a interesting "astral" trip...

[3bob]

Jeff, you might be interested in Edgar Cayce's correlation to the Book of Rev. if you haven't already read it, the wording takes a little work to get through but lots of info. there,  (and yes some info I'm alluding to is related to "eastern" systems although there is some crossover in meaning)

[Jeff]

Jeff, you might be interested in Edgar Cayce's correlation to the Book of Rev. if you haven't already read it, the wording takes a little work to get through but lots of info. there,  (and yes some info I'm alluding to is related to "eastern" systems although there is some crossover in meaning)

I think some of Cayce's stuff is pretty good, but with his astral explorations to me he misses what I consider to be one of the major points that Jesus describes in his teachings...

 

Luke 17: 20-21

20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

 

Heaven is not about some place or levels you go to, it is more about "being" all and nothing at the same time...

 

Gospel of Thomas - 22

Jesus saw some babies nursing. He said to his disciples, "These nursing babies are like those who enter the (Father's) kingdom." They said to him, "Then shall we enter the (Father's) kingdom as babies?" Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."