Mair 6:7

[Marblehead]

Yen Hui inquired of Confucius, saying, "When Mengsun Ts'ai's {{A wise man of the state of Lu.  Olai (p. 268).  A deceitful minister of the tyrant Chow who was put to death together with his ruler by King Wu of the Chou dynasty.}} mother died, he cried without tears, his heart felt no distress, and during the period of mourning he felt no sorrow.  Although lacking these three qualities, he was held to be the best mourner in the state of Lu.  Can one really attain a name without the substance?  I find this to be very strange."

"The clansman Mengsun was so thorough," said Confucius, "that he had advanced beyond knowledge.  Although he may have wished to simplify mourning, but wasn't able to do so fully, still there is that which he did simplify.  Mengsun didn't know why he lived and didn't know why he would die.  He didn't know which came first, life or death, and which came last.  You see, he just went along with the transformation of things, awaiting the unknown transformation that was in store for him.  Moreover, as we are about to undergo transformation, how do we know that we aren't already transformed?  As we are about to cease transformation, how do we know that we have already transformed?  Perhaps you and I are in a dream from which we have not yet awakened.  He, however, had a vulnerable physical body but no damage to his mind, a patched-together lodge but no expenditure of his essence.  Mengsun was singularly awakened.  When others cried, he cried too.  That's why he behaved himself as he did.

"Moreover, people identify each other as 'I,' but how do we know that what we call 'I' may not really be 'I'?  You may dream that you are a bird and streak across the sky, that you are a fish and descend to the depths.  We cannot determine whether we who are speaking now are awake or dreaming.  We may be so suddenly delighted that we don't have a chance to smile; we may break into a smile before we have a chance to arrange ourselves.  Repose in what has been arranged for you and leave transformation behind, then you will be able to enter the unity of vast heaven.

[Taoist Texts]

Mengsun was singularly awakened.  When others cried, he cried too.  That's why he behaved himself as he did.

 

 

This is unclear.

[Marblehead]

 

 

This is unclear.

 

 

Care to offer an alternate perspective in order to compare/contrast?

[Taoist Texts]

Legge renders this as

 

He was more awake than others were. When they wailed, he also wailed, having in himself the reason why he did so.

 

Which is equally unclear.

 

My guess is that ZZ is saying 'He wailed of his own volition just to go along with the others, not because he actually grieved'. (him being unaffected by grief and being able to wail just for the show, are proof that he was an awakened person)

[Marblehead]

Yes, this might be a case of politically correct action.  It may not have been his nature to wail but as others were doing so he didn't want to offend the others in attendance.

[Brian]

I don't interpret it that way -- by that reasoning, every thespian is "awakened." (I rejected ChiDragon's "blood O₂ level" theory on similar basis.)

 

I think, instead, that the awakened one weeps in sympathy with those who suffer. He understands the suffering, the cause for their suffering, and he weeps not because he suffers but because they do. The compassion is abstracted, as is the "suffering."

 

Part of the awakening process is the expansion of "self" to include others, and eventually all.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Brian

[Marblehead]

Very valid perspective Brian.  And because of your usage of the word "suffering" I would associate that perspective with perhaps Christianity or Buddhism rather than Taoist philosophy.

 

Empathy is a nice feeling though.

[Brian]

Very valid perspective Brian. And because of your usage of the word "suffering" I would associate that perspective with perhaps Christianity or Buddhism rather than Taoist philosophy.

 

Empathy is a nice feeling though.

Yeah, I put the word in quotes because I don't experience it yet I recognize others do.

[dawei]

This is unclear.

 

 

Care to offer an alternate perspective in order to compare/contrast?

 

 

Legge renders this as

 

He was more awake than others were. When they wailed, he also wailed, having in himself the reason why he did so.

 

Which is equally unclear.

 

My guess is that ZZ is saying 'He wailed of his own volition just to go along with the others, not because he actually grieved'. (him being unaffected by grief and being able to wail just for the show, are proof that he was an awakened person)

 

 

Yes, this might be a case of politically correct action.  It may not have been his nature to wail but as others were doing so he didn't want to offend the others in attendance.

 

Here are my comments:  

 

He follows no volition because there is not "I" .

 

"Moreover, people identify each other as 'I,' but how do we know that what we call 'I' may not really be 'I'?

 

He is unaffected by grief, so there is not going along grief's path.   

 

"We cannot determine whether we who are speaking now are awake or dreaming."

 

He resides in the present situation.

 

Repose in what has been arranged for you and leave transformation behind, then you will be able to enter the unity of vast heaven.

 

He is responding without reacting.  He is doing without actionable intentional. 

[morning dew]

Okay, just going to post some initial thoughts:

 

Yen Hui is saying to Confucius, "How comes this big phoney Mengsun is called the best mourner even though he doesn't appear to care at all about the dead?"

 

Confucius says, "He is being true himself, while having to observe customary rituals (not sure why, given things like Section 6:6); He has no idea whether death leads to something better or worse, whether we are just dreaming this life and going to wake up to something better, etc, so he's keeping an open mind and has reached a compromise (in the disconnect between his emotions and outward behaviour)."

 

--------

 

Again, I don't know much about Confucius, but this seems like a bit of criticism of him by ZZ. Maybe it's because I'm not big in to tradition, but the first thought I have is to still agree with Yen Hui. Why not just strum a lute and sing strange songs as in Section 6:6? Why bother following the correct Confucian behaviour if you don't really feel it? Perhaps, ZZ wants to illustrate the ambivalence or uncertainty about whether death is a good or bad thing, so he has Mengsun display both attitudes at once? I'm not sure.

Edited June 22, 2017 by morning dew

[Marblehead]

You have a pretty good handle on that.

 

Confucius would have the proper rites, rituals, and ceremonies.

 

Chuang Tzu would have you express yourself naturally.

 

 

And we always need keep in mind that Chuang Tzu was a mystic and considered death as only a transition, not an end.

 

[morning dew]

It also seems a little odd how Confucius is speaking. It's almost as if ZZ were speaking through him like a puppet. I didn't think Confucius was big into metaphysical speculation.

Edited June 22, 2017 by morning dew

[Marblehead]

Yes.  Good point.

 

Don't take anything in the Chuang Tzu as being quoted by Confucius as actually being an accurate quote.  

 

The entire Chuang Tzu should not be taken as a historical document but rather as a work of fiction.