Neck pain and Zhan Zhuang

[JCB]

Hi all, 

 

I have been practising ZZ daily for over a year and have recently begun to develop neck pain after each session.

 

I have recently changed my posture to sit more deeply into the posture and the creases of the kua (as per teachers advice) and have a slightly lordotic (arched) lower back. I was generally fine before but with this new adjustment the neck pain has increased.

 

I also suffer from a 'clicky' jaw (TMJ issues) and was wondering is this a postural issue or should I just sit it out and wait for the chi to clear the blockages? 

 

Thanks 

[beingnature]

Hmm i also did lots of zhang zhuang maybe you could try to relax more and let gravity correct your posture.

[Miffymog]

I practice ZZ every day and although I've never experienced what you describe, I have come across something slightly similar while knitting.

 

I happen to have a knitting mill which produces circular tubes. I use this on a table while standing up so that the tube has somewhere to drop down. The thing is, it's a cheap mill and I have to watch each stitch that the mill knits like a hawk in case it drops one, if it does, I pretty much have to start the whole thing from the beginning again.

 

When I started doing this, I would simply bend my head down at a slight angle so I could see what was going on. But after an hour of standing like this, my slightly bent neck would aggravate the sciatica in my lower back which would then send pain down to my foot.

 

This really took me by surprise because I haven't had any sciatica since I started ZZ, and I'd definitely never experienced it due to something that my neck was doing. The solution was simple, stand with a straight neck and just look downwards at a greater angle, pain gone.

 

The point here is that doing one thing with one part of your spine definitely effects the rest of it. The pain you're experiencing could be due to a slight trapped nerve / slipped disc / injury in your neck that you never knew about before.

 

ZZ can definitely help with some injuries, but it's not a cure all panacea and it can be difficult to differentiate between 'good pain' and 'bad pain'. Your instructor may well be very experienced, but I've had Yoga teachers tell me certain things were good for my sciatica in the past and they were just plain wrong.

 

This is a pain that you should be very wary of. One of the things I had to learn about ZZ was the limit that I could push my knees to. If I stood for too long (say around 30 mins everyday), the right knee would start to swell up when cycling. I cut down on my time and my knee is now absolutely fine. Accepting the limits of my ability and curbing my ambition was tough, but I've now got a simple settled practice that I'm happy with.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Miffymog

[qicat]

Hi all, 

 

I have been practising ZZ daily for over a year and have recently begun to develop neck pain after each session.

 

I have recently changed my posture to sit more deeply into the posture and the creases of the kua (as per teachers advice) and have a slightly lordotic (arched) lower back. I was generally fine before but with this new adjustment the neck pain has increased.

 

I also suffer from a 'clicky' jaw (TMJ issues) and was wondering is this a postural issue or should I just sit it out and wait for the chi to clear the blockages? 

 

Thanks 

Q1: is it a tension pain or nerve pain ( i.e. are you hitting any acupuncture points possible blockages?)

Q2: are you including and visualization with it? If yes, do you have pain when you DON'T do visual stuff?

Q3: Where exactly is pain? I.e. left, right, center, everywhere?

[Starjumper]

I started getting headaches a year or so after beginning doing high power energy cultivation,  It was caused by blockages in the neck due to less than perfect posture, and almost everyone has blockages in their neck.  The way I solved it was by focussing on neck alignment, by holding my head as high as possible in the extreme.  Your mileage may vary.

[Daeluin]

I've had some recent experiences with pain caused by stiffness and working to correct bad posture.

 

Someone made an anology that trying to get perfect posture may also be like trying to stretch a dried rubber band. It can cause cracking and damage the rubber band's elasticity.

 

Some principles I've been following to help me adjust into a better posture increasingly as my body is able:

 

Center myself in my heart / middle dan tien - an area I have allowed to close somewhat. This then opens my chest. Now I need to be mindful of allowing my shoulders to drop and also keep the area between them open. Also when my chest opens in the front, my sacrum begins to drop in the back a little, allowing me to relax down my spine to a greater degree, especially when I then focus on opening my hips and bending my knees slightly. Also when my chest opens, I notice stiffness begin in my upper neck, as my head is no longer balanced on my spine, so I lean my head forward a little more and focus on pulling back and up at CV 23, which, with my jaw lightly closed allows me to remain away of a good point of balance and helps to open the upper neck.

 

I've been getting good results following these principles, but you may need other adjustments based on your own posture. It is important to stop and make adjustments as soon as you notice the stiffness. Stiffness, for me at least, tends to be caused by overthinking (spleen imbalance), so it is important to be aware of how empty your mind is. Starting with opening my chest has alow allowed my mind to drop more into my heart where it is able to find contentment and peace in stillness.

[qicat]

found it here 

(http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/20041-taoist-meditations)

We are going through this right now. Sifu makes us do it wrong way ( hurts, ouch, and then the proper way to feel the difference. Did not make it to the neck part though, still stuck on #5:) That's like 6 pages discussion in the book:P ). 

Do you have somebody else to watch you stand? Or can you make a video of yourself? I.e. we sometimes have no idea how BAD we are actually standing... 

 

Also, you did not have recent neck injuries? All esoteric energy stuff is good, but checking basic physical stuff is a number 1 rule:P ( if you did have some injury, this might help: http://www.naturallakeland.com/product/neck-shoulder-acute-capsules-100-count/)

, but check with your doctor of course. 

 

 

 

 

This is from Jerry's book:

"The most important basic techniques of Medical Qigong training are guided by eighteen rules of proper form and structure. The main point of Postural Dao Yin training is to relax and seek quiescence while in the various postures. Tension in any area of the body restricts the whole structural system, since the body seeks to balance its structure naturally by shifting its energy and weight. The general function of the muscles is to guide the flow of energy through the channels. The following is a list of the Eighteen Rules for proper standing postures, these rules apply to every school of energy cultivation: 
1. Stand with the feet flat,
2. Bend the knees,
3. Relax the hips,
4. Round the perineal area,
5. Close the anal sphincter,
6. Pull in the Stomach,
7. Relax the waist,
8. Tuck the chest in,
9. Stretch the back,
10. Relax the shoulders,
11. Sink the elbows,
12. Hollow the armpits,
13. Relax the wrists,
14. Suspend the head,
15. Tuck the chin,
16. Close the eyes for inner vision,
17. Close the mouth and tum your hearing inwards, and
18. Touch the tongue to the upper palate,
Each of these eighteen rules is described in detail...
. . .
The anus is divided into five regions: Front, Middle, Back, Left, and Right. By contracting the anus in different parts, you can bring more Qi to the various organs and glands." 

 

[qicat]

I started getting headaches a year or so after beginning doing high power energy cultivation,  It was caused by blockages in the neck due to less than perfect posture, and almost everyone has blockages in their neck.  The way I solved it was by focussing on neck alignment, by holding my head as high as possible in the extreme.  Your mileage may vary.

totally hear you brother, also, adding mudras to the mix +1s the intensity. I back up form that stuff and focus on something rather simpler for few days. It amazes me how delicate the body energy is and how easily you can "unbalance" it with "less than perfect posture" in qigong. 

[JCB]

Hi bums, 

 

Thanks for your replies, your advice is humbling! The pain is mainly centred around my neck and shoulders and I'm sure is down to the arch in my lower back and the resulting tension working its way up my body. 

 

The main advice I've had for the posture is "imagine you're sitting on a ball" and have the main intent of relaxing throughout the session. I have also read the Mark Cohen book on ZZ and his main piece advice on getting into the stance was "set and forget". 

 

I thought after practicing diligently and daily for over a year tension would have decreased but it has actually increased in the neck and shoulders. I'm of thr current thinking that I should just 'stand it out' and have ZZ correct the posture over time...

[Sudhamma]

qicat at #17 has given you a good list of 18 rules. the key to a good zhangzhuang is a relaxed structure with an aligned chong mai, the central meridian, meaning that the 'meeting of hundreds', bai-wei, a pressure point on top of your head, is in line with the 'meeting of yin', wei-yin, between the anal opening and the sex organ. This alignment, besides ensuring the transmission of energy flow, will also ensure that the skeletal structure is not stressed. The chin is tucked in slightly, but not touching the chest. The pelvis, the butt, is also slightly tucked in. Collapse your chest, round the back and drop your elbows. When the rules say, pull-in, do so without force. You need to be doing it with a mental focus and with minimal force. Check the tension in your hands, fingers and the back.  Release the tensions, and relax. Breathing should be gradual, slow, quiet and deep, regardless whether you are doing MCO with RAB or not. Check the stance whether it is too wide as it should be your shoulder width. The next time you are doing the practice, set up a video camera to your side and view how you have performed later. That should help you to correct any mistakes in your posture. Trust this will help you. Note: there are many versions of zhangzhuang, each school has its own version, and of course, "rules".

[RiverSnake]

Hi bums, 

 

Thanks for your replies, your advice is humbling! The pain is mainly centred around my neck and shoulders and I'm sure is down to the arch in my lower back and the resulting tension working its way up my body. 

 

The main advice I've had for the posture is "imagine you're sitting on a ball" and have the main intent of relaxing throughout the session. I have also read the Mark Cohen book on ZZ and his main piece advice on getting into the stance was "set and forget". 

 

I thought after practicing diligently and daily for over a year tension would have decreased but it has actually increased in the neck and shoulders. I'm of thr current thinking that I should just 'stand it out' and have ZZ correct the posture over time...

 

What is your day to day life like? Do you sit at a desk or in a chair for long periods of time? How is your sleeping posture, do you get enough support? Are you doing any kind of stretches to help remove tension? Are you practicing relaxing while doing ZZ (this is ideal) or are you tensing up in each posture? 

 

Those are all potential contributing factors worth considering. Setting a gentle intent of relaxing the whole body while in these postures is highly beneficial. 

Edited April 21, 2017 by OldSaint