The belief in a world made of Matter

[3bob]

one can know further than regular knowing or beyond any shadow of a doubt or a still pending whatever - but not through or by sticking with doubt, shadows or methods derived from same.

Edited April 23, 2017 by 3bob

[Michael Sternbach]

When you drop the toast on the floor? (toast and floor may/may not exist).

 

Since neither floor nor toast exist, what do you smear your butter on?

 

Koan by Michaerushi, 77th patriarch in the Starlight school of Zen Buddhism

[Marblehead]

Sure. If you could clearly see at an atomic level, you would know that your body is really just a bunch of open space with some electrons moving around really fast. Also, that the table in front of you is just your mind translating the repulsive energy force into what your mind conceptualizes as a table. An alien mind would have different perceptions and maybe instead see you and the table as nothing but light blobs.

 

But just because, your body is really just a light blob, doesn't mean that you "who animates" the light blob does not exist.

 

That one better?

 

Yes, a little better.  But what a time consuming effort it would be to keep track of all the empty space and electrons that make up what I physically am.  And as I have stated before, once we start deconstructing we no longer have the totality of what it is we are looking at.

 

But then you are on to something mentioning perception.

[Michael Sternbach]

After resting a bit if you are seeking honest employment check in with Brian re window cleaning, mention me if you like.

 

No way... The windows don't exist either.

 

"Since all is void, where can dust alight?"

 

Hui-Neng, sixth patriarch at the time when there was only one school of Zen Buddhism

[Marblehead]

It is possible for something to "exist" but not necessarily have a physical form. Just resaearch on how mass/matter pops out of nothing in a Higgs field (modern physics).

 

I still don't have my head around that one so I can't really speak to it.

 

And I still don't accept Hawkins' "everything from nothing" hypothesis.

[Marblehead]

... we've got folks who don't accept the concept that the rock exerts a force on your foot which is equal and opposite to the force your foot exerts on the rock.

 

Help!  I'm a rock!

[Michael Sternbach]

It is possible for something to "exist" but not necessarily have a physical form. Just resaearch on how mass/matter pops out of nothing in a Higgs field (modern physics).

 

Mass is theorized to be an effect of the Higgs field, but matter is not (except by you).

 

On another note, are you suggesting that matter isn't real, but mind is?

[Marblehead]

An illusory dwai, walked into an illusory tree and got an illusory broken nose. It is no different from a sleeping dream. Only thing is, we are afraid for this waking dream to end, thinking it is the end of us. It is not...when we die, we just wake up from the waking dream

 

Gave me a chuckle.

 

So you went to the hospital to get your nose cared for and they told you to go away because you were having a dream.  Great!

[Marblehead]

Illusory MH does exist in an illusory world because we interact with him. Ultimately however, you, me, MH and every other "sentient being" are just one consciousness, without a second.

 

Oh No!  Back to God playing video games.

[Marblehead]

Its habitual to view matter as existent. 

 

 

It's more than that.  It's very useful.

[Marblehead]

 

 

"Fear not"

Though I walk through the valley of death I shall fear no evil.

[Marblehead]

 

What color is that flower I asked a seven year old? Indigo was the reply.

And out he door we go you are indigo and I'm out the door we go. Smiles all around the clearest of communication!

Yeah, even white light comes in many colors.

[Marblehead]

No proof is needed or possible. We have to figure this out ourselves. That is the way this works...

 

And you need to keep the faith!

[Brian]

Oh No! Back to God playing video games.

Don't tell God what to do, Marblehead.

[C T]

It's more than that.  It's very useful.

Yep. Useful for seeking and maintaining rigid views that reinforce habitual responses.  

[3bob]

without the pauses between notes of music, that music would not exist, nothing debatable there but maybe we can spin some analogies off that?

Edited April 23, 2017 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

Yep. Useful for seeking and maintaining rigid views that reinforce habitual responses.  

 

Or for cleansing one's self of dogmatic beliefs and allowing one's self to live spontaneously.

[Marblehead]

without the pauses between notes of music, that music would not exist, nothing debatable there but maybe we can spin some analogies off that?

 

This is very true.  And some music would sound much better if it included more pauses.

[C T]

Habitual responses are irrelevant. What matters is the ability to have a mind that is unconstrained by the responses that parts of it can have. There can be well-worn ways of handling different ideas; the only time this becomes a problem is when the mind is entirely overtaken by the response and incapable of reversing the sort of constriction that can take place with the energy (when such a response is made).

 

Edit: but, even so, there's still not a good reason to disregard matter. +spelling

I think habitual responses are totally relevant as they determine the level of rigidity or flexibility of mind. 

[C T]

Or for cleansing one's self of dogmatic beliefs and allowing one's self to live spontaneously.

Please say more about how to live spontaneously, MH. Bullet points will suffice. 

 

Thanks!

[rene]

I think habitual responses are totally relevant as they determine the level of rigidity or flexibility of mind.

My mind is rigidly flexible, and I like that I can always count on you for an insightful post. (-:

[Marblehead]

Please say more about how to live spontaneously, MH. Bullet points will suffice. 

 

Thanks!

 

That request has been made of me before and to this date I have yet to provide a good description.  Perhaps I will do better this time.

 

First I must state that there are limits based on our obligations and responsibilities we have to others.

 

I like to associate "living spontaneously" with the state of "wu wei".  That is, basically, doing nothing if nothing is required to be done.  (This would be after all our obligations and responsibilities are satisfied.

 

But for most of us, this "doing nothing" will not last very long because we will almost always be inspired to do something as inspired by our nature and thoughts that arise spontaneously.

 

Now, if we are good at meditating we can attain a state such that these thoughts will arise less frequently.

 

I actually liken this state to the valley spirit.  It is a state of rest, both physically and mentally.  The Yin state, if you will.

 

So basically, we do what needs be done.  When all is done there is nothing left that needs be done so we can empty our mind.  Of course, thoughts will arise; we can either let them pass or we can act upon them.  Same thing with what we observe within our environment.  If something arises that needs be acted upon we would act upon it without thought, without intent; we would only doing what needs be done.

 

I will accept any questions or counter-points to what I have just said.

[Jeff]

Mass is theorized to be an effect of the Higgs field, but matter is not (except by you).

 

On another note, are you suggesting that matter isn't real, but mind is?

To me, matter, mind, and consciousness are all of the same "stuff". Matter could be said to just be a more "dense" (or frozen) version.

[dwai]

Gave me a chuckle.

 

So you went to the hospital to get your nose cared for and they told you to go away because you were having a dream.  Great!

 

They would if they were awake too

[Michael Sternbach]

To me, matter, mind, and consciousness are all of the same "stuff". Matter could be said to just be a more "dense" (or frozen) version.

So are they all equally real - or unreal - in your book?