The belief in a world made of Matter

[Marblehead]

Now, understand, I'm not arguing that matter cannot be reduced to a more basic form.  Sure, all matter is energy.  I still accept that.  But knowing this doesn't help me at all when dealing with matter as it is presented to my brain through my senses.

 

No I'm not going to talk about my chair again.

[Apech]

Now, understand, I'm not arguing that matter cannot be reduced to a more basic form.  Sure, all matter is energy.  I still accept that.  But knowing this doesn't help me at all when dealing with matter as it is presented to my brain through my senses.

 

No I'm not going to talk about my chair again.

 

 

Can we accept that matter is a general term for the 'stuff things are made of' - when you examine it closely it gets more complicated (e.g. quantum mechanics) - but in a general day to day sense matter exists. (?)

[Marblehead]

Can we accept that matter is a general term for the 'stuff things are made of' - when you examine it closely it gets more complicated (e.g. quantum mechanics) - but in a general day to day sense matter exists. (?)

 

Sure, I can accept that.  There is a difference between "things" an "no-thing".  We have talked about that before.  My chair is a thing - my pegacorn is a no-thing.

 

And we have talked before about taking things apart, reducing things to their most basic components.  Problem for me is that once we start taking a thing apart we no longer have the "thing" but only components of a thing and most times these components become useless.

 

The manifest universe exists in real physical form.  But that is know for only 4 percent of what science believes is the totality of the universe.  Where is the other 96 percent of the universe?  Unobservable energy?

[Apech]

Sure, I can accept that.  There is a difference between "things" an "no-thing".  We have talked about that before.  My chair is a thing - my pegacorn is a no-thing.

 

And we have talked before about taking things apart, reducing things to their most basic components.  Problem for me is that once we start taking a thing apart we no longer have the "thing" but only components of a thing and most times these components become useless.

 

The manifest universe exists in real physical form.  But that is know for only 4 percent of what science believes is the totality of the universe.  Where is the other 96 percent of the universe?  Unobservable energy?

 

 

 

Perhaps 96% of the universe is composed of tiny pegacorns?

[Marblehead]

Perhaps 96% of the universe is composed of tiny pegacorns?

 

That's the thing.  In our mind we can create it to be any thing we want it to be.  But it remains only in our mind.  We can never sit on an imaginary chair.

 

(Wet dreams are a different category.)

[rene]

If there was ever an argument for "Both, same time!" - this thread might be it.

 

Warm regards

[Jeff]

If you or I don't exist, how do we know if there exists a self-aware Apech?

Marblehead can prove to all of us that he exists, by telling us all that he is going to kill you and doing it. He also never even needs to directly enter into your minds perception (consciousness) by killing you with a long range sniper bullet. You are gone, and gone from all of our minds perceptions.

 

How can you prove that Marblehead does not exist? Or prove that there is no "world" in which he can kill you and cause your cessation?

[dwai]

[Jeff]

Even in this case, you have to rely on your consciousnsss to either know of my presence or of my absence when poor MH participates in your proposed shenanigans

Precisely for that reason, whether I exist or not, is entirely dependent on your consciousness. There Is NO objective reality, it is all entirely subjective.

Like I said, first hand, second hand or third hand, your knowledge of something is predicated on your consciousness acknowledging that thing.

One might ask why is it that we experience the world in a similar fashion? That could very well be (and Occam's razor points to it) because it is essentially the same one source "mind" in which the world appears, just like in our dreams, we may appear as many characters interacting in a world that seems as real as our waking one.

I notice that you did not at all explain how you prove that Marblehead does not exist.

 

Also, I do not disagree that everything that I perceive is through my "mind". But, can you prove that your mind is not simply inside your physical body, and the physical body is in a physical world? Hence, when Marblehead kills your physical body, your mind and all such perception of consciousness completely shuts down.

 

How can you prove that you are correct?

[Marblehead]

Precisely for that reason, whether I exist or not, is entirely dependent on your consciousness. There Is NO objective reality, it is all entirely subjective.

 

But Dwai, pleas consider this:

 

You are walking in the park.  There is a tree in the park.  You walk directly into the tree because you did not consciously recognize the existence of the tree.  The impact cause you to have a broken, bloody nose.  What happened?

 

I'll tell you what happened:  you walked into physical reality.  That's a no-brainer if ever there was one.

[Marblehead]

I notice that you did not at all explain how you prove that Marblehead does not exist.

 

Oh, if you were within "slap aside the head" range of Marblehead he would be able to prove he exists.

[Marblehead]

But it is true, my pegacorns really do not exist.

[cold]

My fave is bicolor, btw we feed the peg corn to the mule, its rough on human chompers!

[Jeff]

Oh, if you were within "slap aside the head" range of Marblehead he would be able to prove he exists.

Proving that you exist and proving that there is a physical world are two different things...

[rene]

Proving that you exist and proving that there is a physical world are two different things...

How so?

[Jeff]

How so?

The world could really be a giant video game like Dwai is implying, and your body just a character in that video game. But, there can still be a "you" that exists (just not a physical body you) that is playing the video game. Sort of like your spirit/soul got so caught up playing the video game that it forgot it's true nature.

[rene]

The world could really be a giant video game like Dwai is implying, and your body just a character in that video game. But, there can still be a "you" that exists (just not a physical body you) that is playing the video game. Sort of like your spirit/soul got so caught up playing the video game that it forgot it's true nature.

Ah okay. For me, the character, game and "player" all also exist unboundaried (to each other); I was curious how it was for you. Thanks for elaborating, Jeff, most appreciated!

[Jeff]

Ah okay. For me, the character, game and "player" all also exist unboundaried (to each other); I was curious how it was for you. Thanks for elaborating, Jeff, most appreciated!

I would personally mostly agree with you. Was just trying to stay in the context of Dwai's original conceptual framework and videos.

[Michael Sternbach]

Oh I wondered why the butter is always soft.

There is an upside to that.

[Apech]

There is an upside to that.

 

 

 

When you drop the toast on the floor? (toast and floor may/may not exist).

[Marblehead]

Proving that you exist and proving that there is a physical world are two different things...

 

But Jeff, if it were proven that I exist then there would be a lot of other physical "stuff" that my life is dependent upon that exists as well.  Prove one by proxy proves millions of other things including the planet I live on.  From there, this planet would have no life it there weren't a star (our sun) to provide it energy for life. 

 

Oh, it just never stops once you have proven the existence of any single thing.

[Marblehead]

I would personally mostly agree with you. Was just trying to stay in the context of Dwai's original conceptual framework and videos.

 

I don't play video games.  Do you have another example?

[Marblehead]

There is an upside to that.

 

When you drop the toast on the floor? (toast and floor may/may not exist).

 

No, it makes it easier to butter your toast if the butter is soft.

 

And no, the floor does not exist so you can drop the toast as often as you wish and it will never land on the floor.  And, of course, you are levitating because there is no floor for you to stand on.

 

Oh! the implications!!!

[Marblehead]

But then, some things don't matter.

[Jeff]

I don't play video games.  Do you have another example?

Sure. If you could clearly see at an atomic level, you would know that your body is really just a bunch of open space with some electrons moving around really fast. Also, that the table in front of you is just your mind translating the repulsive energy force into what your mind conceptualizes as a table. An alien mind would have different perceptions and maybe instead see you and the table as nothing but light blobs.

 

But just because, your body is really just a light blob, doesn't mean that you "who animates" the light blob does not exist.

 

That one better?