Aaand... another election

[dust]

UK election 2017. French election 2017. Elections elections.

 

Let's try to keep it civil (I'm talking to myself as much as anyone).

 

As for me...

 

I haven't been paying much attention so far this year, Trump's just so... well, you know..

 

So I've started with this:

 

http://uk.isidewith.com/political-quiz

 

 

edit in blue

Edited April 22, 2017 by dust

[Brian]

51% UKIP & 49% Conservative.

 

 

(Don't worry, I won't be voting...)

[dust]

Indeed... thank goodness for that

 

51% isn't a showstopping lead though. I got 45% for Conservative, which isn't far off yours. What got you there? Science, national security?

 

I also agreed with BNP (37%) and UKIP (35%) on some points for science, economics, and national security, though these were predictably my least compatible.

 

I am apparently most compatible with Plaid Cymru and SNP (64%). As their primary platforms are Welsh independence and Scottish independence respectively, I'm thinking... no.

 

 

 

A shame that one of the areas that is most important to me is not addressed there, or in any public forum, or indeed hardly addressed at all by most parties.

 

http://voteforanimals.org.uk/party-policies-on-animals/

https://policy.greenparty.org.uk/ar.html

[Apech]

I did that quiz and came out 60% Tory and 58% Labour - but actually I am normally a Labour voter but this time cos of Brexit would probably vote Lib Dem ... so I think the quiz is not very good.  I'm not actually voting tho cos I didn't renew my proxy vote arrangement.

 

This election is actually an attempt to crush Labour because Corbyn is unelectable - but should have happened directly after the Brexit Referendum when Cameron resigned.

[dust]

No, it's not great, but has helped me highlight some areas of agreement/disagreement.

 

Then again, maybe you just don't realize how Tory you are?

[Miffymog]

 

Apologises. Minor hijacking of the thread but still on elections - as I write the French are voting in their Presidential elections.

 

11 candidates going down to 2 after this weekend. The final round between the last two is in May sometime.

 

The two front runners currently are

 

LePenn - representing fairly strong right wing views

Melenchon - representing fairly strong left wing views

 

Interestingly enough, both want out of the EU, this would then have a very significant impact on the UK...

[Apech]

No, it's not great, but has helped me highlight some areas of agreement/disagreement.

 

Then again, maybe you just don't realize how Tory you are?

 

 

 

Oh don't say that!  I've never voted Tory in my life - but I admit a slide to the right as I get older  I guess I may be a classical liberal by now - but I have very different attitudes depending on the issue/policy area.

[Apech]

 

 

Apologises. Minor hijacking of the thread but still on elections - as I write the French are voting in their Presidential elections.

 

11 candidates going down to 2 after this weekend. The final round between the last two is in May sometime.

 

The two front runners currently are

 

LePenn - representing fairly strong right wing views

Melenchon - representing fairly strong left wing views

 

Interestingly enough, both want out of the EU, this would then have a very significant impact on the UK...

 

 

 

The puzzling thing is that Fillon is still in the race despite his corrupt nepotism.  Macron is a front runner - and seems to have the support of Obama (!) ... and yes I'm hoping this will impact the EU stance on Brexit if Frexit is o the cards.

[dust]

Apologises. Minor hijacking of the thread but still on elections - as I write the French are voting in their Presidential elections.

 

No apologies.. we shouldn't ignore the French election. It's more important on an international scale than the UK one.

 

There might not be much to say about the UK election anyway, the outcome seems pretty certain.

 

I figure the title of the topic can actually be an umbrella for any current election... election after election.. eugh

[morning dew]

I side with Plaid Cymru 72%, apparently. 

[CloudHands]

Melenchon is not against europe... Only Le Pen is, and despite her 20 more % she has not a chance to be elected.

We will stay european. 

[CloudHands]

http://www.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs/article/2017/04/19/negociations-ou-sortie-que-veut-vraiment-jean-luc-melenchon-sur-l-europe_5113761_4355770.html

 

Négociations ou sortie : que veut vraiment Jean-Luc Mélenchon sur l’Europe ?

"Le candidat de La France insoumise a demandé à ses soutiens, mardi, de ne « pas croire » qu’il voudrait « sortir de l’Europe, de l’euro ». Explications."

 

The candidate of the unsubdued France asked his supports tuesday to "not believe" he would like to "get out Europe, euro". Explanations."

[Apech]

[futuredaze]

I hope Le Pen wins.

 

Anybody who says "we must learn to live with terrorism", like Macron, is a total sell-out.  People should have no fear to speak out against shitty ideologies (exactly what dogmatic Abrahamic religion, especially Islam, is), and in favor for the safety and well-being of their own culture and heritage.

Edited April 24, 2017 by futuredaze

[Aetherous]

Le Pen needs to win...her loss is the impending loss of France to Islamism.

[dust]

Anybody who says "we must learn to live with terrorism", like Macron, is a total sell-out.

 

Please direct me to where he said that.

 

If you can't, I hope you will admit that you believed and posted false information without fact-checking it.

Edited April 24, 2017 by dust

[Apech]

Please direct me to where he said that.

 

If you can't, I hope you will admit that you believed and posted false information without fact-checking it.

 

 

“This threat, this imponderable problem, is part of our daily lives for the years to come. I would like to express all my support for our police forces and more generally the forces of law and order. I am particularly thinking of the victim’s family.”

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/21/fears-that-paris-shooting-will-affect-presidental-election-as-first-round-looms

[dust]

Right... so he didn't say "we must learn to live with terrorism."

 

That is actually something the PM, Valls, said. Not Macron.

 

And if any of you think they're the same thing -- "part of our daily lives" vs "must learn to live with" -- I'd suggest going back to school.

 

I'm not trying to defend Macron here. I just cannot abide liars, and I can't converse with people who think that quoting person A is the same as quoting person B. Our aim should be to seek truth, not something we feel is vaguely close to what might be the truth.

 

Macron could be less easy on Islam. And I can't find much about what his policies are. He's certainly not someone I'd choose for a candidate. But Le Pen is pure nastiness. The FN is militantly opposed to Islam, generally anti-immigration, they believe gay marriage is wrong, they hate the EU, and their party also has a history of antisemitism and general racial hatred.

Edited April 24, 2017 by dust

[futuredaze]

Right... so he didn't say "we must learn to live with terrorism."

 

That is actually something the PM, Valls, said. Not Macron.

 

And if any of you think they're the same thing -- "part of our daily lives" vs "must learn to live with" -- I'd suggest going back to school.

 

 

I'm not trying to defend Macron here. I just cannot abide liars. Our aim should be to seek truth, not something we feel is vaguely close to what might be the truth.

Ok, so I looked into it and found that it wasn't him who said it, it was Valls:

 

"“Times have changed and we should learn to live with terrorism,” Valls said at the time. The comments led to the socialist being cursed and jeered in public, and played a prominent role in terminating his own hopes of a presidential run."

 

http://vesselnews.io/frances-macron-terrorism-part-daily-lives-years-come/

 

I thought it was Macron who said this... but it turns out he said it is an "imponderable problem” which will be “part of our daily lives for the years to come”.

 

Imponderable, huh?  Why can't we think about terrorism- it's causes, it's potential effects?  I can certainly fucking ponder it, and I'm not special.  Why would these puppet politicians even try to say it is "imponderable"?  There is a clear cause here, it isn't "mental illness", it isn't "hot weather" -- although these things may help trigger the behavior prescribed by the Koran.

 

So you are right, that he didn't say that.  but, in my opinion, these statements are quite similar.  If we can't (1) Talk about problems, then we can't (2) Act to fix problems.  both Macron and Valls are both burying their heads in the sand.  That is dangerous, and treason.

[dust]

Imponderable doesn't literally mean one cannot ponder it. It means, in French and English, something difficult to estimate or assess. And I agree.

 

I'm no fan of Islam, and I'm certainly no fan of hardline Islam, but the point is that most European Muslims don't actually follow Muhammad's example in most areas of life, and when we consider those who do -- the "extremists" -- we have a hard time figuring out how to stop them.

 

It's difficult to assess.

 

Now.. I'm not a fan of this language either, really. I'd prefer a slightly harder stance. Not "get all the Muslims out", but "Hey everyone, be cool. We won't tolerate violence, we won't tolerate violent religious views, and Islam is no exception. Get it straight."

 

But what Le Pen is saying -- "The places of Islamic preaching will be closed and the propagators of hate will be condemned and expelled," for example... Really? Closing all the mosques? And when she says "propagators of hate", I can only assume she means all Muslims, because she seems to believe that all Muslims are propagators of hate. That kind of speech, let alone that actual action should she be elected... is it going to improve things?

Edited April 24, 2017 by dust

[Apech]

Right... so he didn't say "we must learn to live with terrorism."

 

That is actually something the PM, Valls, said. Not Macron.

 

And if any of you think they're the same thing -- "part of our daily lives" vs "must learn to live with" -- I'd suggest going back to school.

 

I'm not trying to defend Macron here. I just cannot abide liars, and I can't converse with people who think that quoting person A is the same as quoting person B. Our aim should be to seek truth, not something we feel is vaguely close to what might be the truth.

 

Macron could be less easy on Islam. And I can't find much about what his policies are. He's certainly not someone I'd choose for a candidate. But Le Pen is pure nastiness. The FN is militantly opposed to Islam, generally anti-immigration, they believe gay marriage is wrong, they hate the EU, and their party also has a history of antisemitism and general racial hatred.

 

 

 

I think the problem is that what Macron said does sound a bit passive and accepting.  I would prefer if he had some ideas about how to stop and put an end to Islamic terrorism - which is specifically what France has been suffering from.  Le Pen treats it as if it is something coming from abroad while most terrorists seem to be French or Belgian.  The right though does seem able to speak its name while centrist politicians across the west like to spout 'religion of peace' stuff but seem completely silent on what the problem is and how to deal with it.   I understand they don't want to fuel social tensions with Muslim communities but with ETA and the IRA there was no reluctance to name the source and the causes of the terror attacks.

[futuredaze]

Imponderable doesn't literally mean one cannot ponder it. It means, in French and English, something difficult to estimate or assess. And I agree.

 

I'm no fan of Islam, and I'm certainly no fan of hardline Islam, but the point is that most European Muslims don't actually follow Muhammad's example in most areas of life, and when we consider those who do -- the "extremists" -- we have a hard time figuring out how to stop them.

 

It's difficult to assess.

 

Now.. I'm not a fan of this language either, really. I'd prefer a slightly harder stance. Not "get all the Muslims out", but "Hey everyone, be cool. We won't tolerate violence, we won't tolerate violent religious views, and Islam is no exception. Get it straight."

 

But what Le Pen is saying -- "The places of Islamic preaching will be closed and the propagators of hate will be condemned and expelled," for example... Really? Closing all the mosques? And when she says "propagators of hate", I can only assume she means all Muslims, because she seems to believe that all Muslims are propagators of hate. That kind of speech, let alone that actual action should she be elected... is it going to improve things?

Mass deportation seems to be the only solution.  Otherwise, the terrorism will rise, the French culture will be threatened.

 

Immigration often goes hand and hand with war.  To some Western lefties, these are "refugees", but they will call themselves "invaders" -- who is more right here?

 

 

Even if only a small percentage of Muslims are actually going to commit violent acts, that will lead to hundreds, and eventually THOUSANDS of casualties.  Is tolerance worth killing people, mass suffering in families, massive civil unrest, and the looming threat of getting hijacked by this radical ideology?

 

People say "you probably won't get attacked."  That's true, but I counter with the fact that SOMEONE will, someone innocent.  We can't expect to save the world, that's naive.  We have to start with our families, local communities, and eventually our nations.  We can do great things as a nation that leads by example, but when nations try to fix the world, we get lots of dead bodies.  Look at the Soviet Union, Mao's China, Nazi Germany... the road to hell is indeed paved with good intentions.

[CloudHands]

Mass deportation seems to be the only solution.  Otherwise, the terrorism will rise, the French culture will be threatened.

 

 

 

Don't remove a fly on your brother's head with an axe dude.

 

 

You scary you know ?

[Apech]

Mass deportation seems to be the only solution.  Otherwise, the terrorism will rise, the French culture will be threatened.

 

.....

 

 

I don't agree.  There are two things which could and should be addressed without extreme measures like this (which would cause more suffering for innocents).  One is the way in which terrorist groups are organised and recruited - which should be disrupted by the police and military.  The other is the honest public examination of political Islam - it's aims and objectives and methods - and from this scrutiny the deconstruction of its validity - how it is anti-thetical to everything that is valuable in the west - this is where our politicians and media are letting us down.

[CloudHands]

The other is the honest public examination of political Islam - it's aims and objectives and methods - and from this scrutiny the deconstruction of its validity - how it is anti-thetical to everything that is valuable in the west - this is where our politicians and media are letting us down.

 

Can you go further on this ? What's political islam ? Maybe you know Islam that well you can state this, but that's a pretty dangerous position.