Aaand... another election

[dust]

Thank you for that post, dust. You give me the appreciable feeling of being useless

 

I get carried away sometimes. Well, quite often.

 

 

I agree with most of what you say except to say that the death penalty in the US is reserved for serial killers and the like and not apostasy or being gay.  Sure there is a variation state to state - but even so the whole thing is held together by the constitution which is basically 18th century European enlightenment values writ large.  I'm certainly not uncritical of what the western powers do int he world - but at the end of the day if you want to live free and so on - well the best countries are all western.

 

The death penalty I mentioned as a response to the mention of stoning and decapitation and such things in some nations. I despise such acts, and it's true that capital punishment and other forms of punishment are worse in many places than in the USA, and given for less; but there's also the argument that the USA has executed innocent people, and that execution itself has no place in a civilized society.

 

And no, the best countries are not all Western. I'd agree that Europe has the best claim to most "civilized" continent, but in terms of living free (which is not the same as being "civilized" !), there are many places. Hong Kong, Taiwan, Korea, Japan, Chile, Mauritius, Uruguay, and others, all rank pretty high on the Human Freedom Index. HK is #1 I believe.

 

Getting more and more off-topic. I think the point is that it is a little ridiculous to suggest that majority-Muslim countries are completely "uncivilized", Western countries are all great, and whatever else, with the idea that all Muslims should be deported because they're going to start stoning people on Sunset Boulevard.

 

Time and again I've used a number of sources to illustrate that it is a select few Muslims in non-Muslim countries who commit terrorist acts -- that they're usually from said country and well-educated, apart from anything else. It's a completely different ball game to the poorly educated and economically troubled people of Iraq, or Syria, or Myanmar, or Uganda, or India -- Islam, Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, whatever -- who commit heinous acts that can be blamed equally on their religion OR their situation.

 

Allow someone a better situation and they will likely accept the improvement.

 

 

Hi Dust - are you American?

 

No. British. And much of the criticism that can be levelled at America can be levelled at the UK too..

[Apech]

...

 

The death penalty I mentioned as a response to the mention of stoning and decapitation and such things in some nations. I despise such acts, and it's true that capital punishment and other forms of punishment are worse in many places than in the USA, and given for less; but there's also the argument that the USA has executed innocent people, and that execution itself has no place in a civilized society.

 

And no, the best countries are not all Western. I'd agree that Europe has the best claim to most "civilized" continent, but in terms of living free (which is not the same as being "civilized" !), there are many places. Hong Kong, Taiwan, Korea, Japan, Chile, Mauritius, Uruguay, and others, all rank pretty high on the Human Freedom Index. HK is #1 I believe.

 

Getting more and more off-topic. I think the point is that it is a little ridiculous to suggest that majority-Muslim countries are completely "uncivilized", Western countries are all great, and whatever else, with the idea that all Muslims should be deported because they're going to start stoning people on Sunset Boulevard.

 

Time and again I've used a number of sources to illustrate that it is a select few Muslims in non-Muslim countries who commit terrorist acts -- that they're usually from said country and well-educated, apart from anything else. It's a completely different ball game to the poorly educated and economically troubled people of Iraq, or Syria, or Myanmar, or Uganda, or India -- Islam, Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, whatever -- who commit heinous acts that can be blamed equally on their religion OR their situation.

 

Allow someone a better situation and they will likely accept the improvement.

 

 

 

No. British. And much of the criticism that can be levelled at America can be levelled at the UK too..

 

 

I'm a Brit too - so maybe what I think of the US is a bit thru the lens of the internet.

 

I don't think I said Muslim majority countries are not civilised.  In fact I suppose Iraq, Egypt etc. can claim to having been civilised a lot longer than us.  But civilisation can be based on very different value systems and they are not all equivalent.  I don't know about HK but I think it continues to exist very much under the patronage of China which in terms of human rights has a pretty poor record.

 

So are you voting in the UK elections?  and if so which way - I'd be interested in your thoughts.

[Aetherous]

Haha! The USA, epitome of not fucking goats.

 

So in order to be civilized, one simply has to not be a rapist or murderer?

 

And if homosexuals are killed, children are molested, the government kills people, animals get fucked, and people get shot in the street, then the country is not civilized? What bizarre reality are you living in if you think all of those things don't happen regularly, even daily, in the USA?

 

What bizarre reality do you live in, where you can compare the places where, let's say, ISIS operates...or even what it's like in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Pakistan, etc...to the quality of life in the US?

 

Really...start making sense instead of just arguing.

[CloudHands]

What would one say after that ? Start a list of US evils ? a sociological study ? Remember your history ? what it cost to the world to build that kind of empire ? Talk about your stats concerning prisons and homicide, mental illness ? Sorry if that sound harsh but you seem as beautiful than disgusting in your own way. Lynch pictured it with magnificence.

 

I like my country but I have no reason to be pride of it regarding its history. We, as past superpower, have been both great and terrible. Maybe that's the price of ambition... or not. Anyway, pride would be misplaced.

[Aetherous]

If we drag up history...for instance dropping the bombs on Japan...we could compare the US to terrorists. I just don't see the point in that, aside from being clever. The modern US is incomparable to the terrorist organizations of the world.

If people want to argue against this, have at it. I think it would be a waste of time.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Aetherous

[ralis]

I absolutely am. Islamist is a term used to describe those who seek to spread Islam globally by force...from what I understand, it's not just a term used to describe Muslims.

 

But at this point, I am of the opinion that all Muslims need to be deported from civilized countries. This is an extreme view in our current Western culture. However, one can't readily tell which Muslim is Islamist and which isn't...many claim not to be, but are.

 

This view is antithetical to freedom of religion. However, when the religion murders so many innocents and has a plan for global domination and the overthrow of your government, I think it becomes a terrorist organization more so than a religion. Even if the majority of its proponents don't do those things, their adherence perpetuates it...and I personally feel like they secretly want their side to win.

 

Our pussyfooting around the issue is their only foothold into our lands.

 

 

I guess all these persons listed here should be deported even though their families have been here for generations and most of these persons converted to Islam? Shaguille O'Neill, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar should be thrown out of the USA? These are just two examples of thousands.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_Muslims

[CloudHands]

If we drag up history...for instance dropping the bombs on Japan...we could compare the US to terrorists. I just don't see the point in that, aside from being clever. The modern US is incomparable to the terrorist organizations of the world.

 

If people want to argue against this, have at it. I think it would be a waste of time.

 

I did not compare US to a terrorist association I think.

 

Do you know in Morocco there is no homeless people ?

Edited April 27, 2017 by CloudHands

[dust]

I don't think I said Muslim majority countries are not civilised.  In fact I suppose Iraq, Egypt etc. can claim to having been civilised a lot longer than us.  But civilisation can be based on very different value systems and they are not all equivalent.  I don't know about HK but I think it continues to exist very much under the patronage of China which in terms of human rights has a pretty poor record.

 

So are you voting in the UK elections?  and if so which way - I'd be interested in your thoughts.

 

No, you didn't, but Aetherous did. My responses to you have been informed by the fact that you responded to a post I made in response to him (claiming that the US is civilized, implying that Americans don't do awful things, implying that the Muslim world is all violent, implying that we can judge all other places by the US example..).

 

Yes the PRC is a terrible place in many regards; you'll note that that was one of my points in arguing that it's not fair to suggest that Muslims should all be deported because of the behaviour of a few when the situation in China, the ideological situation, results in a lot of suffering and death. As far as HK.. it exists as an autonomous region of China now: goodness knows the special situation will be forced to end at some point, but for now they are allowed to live pretty free from the mainland.

 

I might vote Lib Dem.

[Apech]

 

No, you didn't, but Aetherous did. My responses to you have been informed by the fact that you responded to a post I made in response to him (claiming that the US is civilized, implying that Americans don't do awful things, implying that the Muslim world is all violent, implying that we can judge all other places by the US example..).

 

Yes the PRC is a terrible place in many regards; you'll note that that was one of my points in arguing that it's not fair to suggest that Muslims should all be deported because of the behaviour of a few when the situation in China, the ideological situation, results in a lot of suffering and death. As far as HK.. it exists as an autonomous region of China now: goodness knows the special situation will be forced to end at some point, but for now they are allowed to live pretty free from the mainland.

 

I might vote Lib Dem.

 

 

I didn't renew my proxy vote - because I thought there wouldn't be a general election - and so I won't actually be voting.  If I was I'd probably vote Lib Dem only because of Brexit (as I voted Remain in the referendum).

 

I think the whole Brexit/Trump link is ridiculous - as if they are somehow part of some global movement - I notice that they are not labelling Macron in France a 'popularist' despite his lack of party allegiance - I think the only thing in common is that people have turned away from mainstream parties in every country.  The Tories in England seem to have been able to recapture popular support by means of 'Brexit means Brexit'.  And the labour party is in such a mess I think it is heading for disaster (tho probably not quite as bad as some predictions).

[Taoist Texts]

 converted to Islam? Shaguille O'Neill,  

 

not really

 

Both Robin Wright in her book Rock the Casbah as well as the Los Angeles Times have identified O'Neal as a Muslim.^{[231][232][233]} However, O'Neal has said, "I'm Muslim, I'm Jewish, I'm Buddhist, I'm everybody 'cause I'm a people person."^[234]

[dust]

I didn't renew my proxy vote - because I thought there wouldn't be a general election - and so I won't actually be voting.  If I was I'd probably vote Lib Dem only because of Brexit (as I voted Remain in the referendum).

 

I think the whole Brexit/Trump link is ridiculous - as if they are somehow part of some global movement - I notice that they are not labelling Macron in France a 'popularist' despite his lack of party allegiance - I think the only thing in common is that people have turned away from mainstream parties in every country.  The Tories in England seem to have been able to recapture popular support by means of 'Brexit means Brexit'.  And the labour party is in such a mess I think it is heading for disaster (tho probably not quite as bad as some predictions).

 

I don't think it's going to make much of a difference. I know we're supposed to believe that every vote counts, but is there any question about the result at this point?

 

It's not a conspiracy, but there has been a wave of similar sentiment washing across parts of Europe. Trump did applaud Brexit, while others (e.g. Obama) said it would be a bad idea.

 

This idea of 'populism' is holding hands with 'nationalism' and 'anti-elitism', which people like Trump and Farage and Le Pen share a stake in.. and it's odd in all cases, as many of the policies of these so-called populist and nationalist and anti-elitist politicians/parties are geared, directly or indirectly, towards fucking over the majority of people, ordinary or otherwise..

[Apech]

I don't think it's going to make much of a difference. I know we're supposed to believe that every vote counts, but is there any question about the result at this point?

 

It's not a conspiracy, but there has been a wave of similar sentiment washing across parts of Europe. Trump did applaud Brexit, while others (e.g. Obama) said it would be a bad idea.

 

This idea of 'populism' is holding hands with 'nationalism' and 'anti-elitism', which people like Trump and Farage and Le Pen share a stake in.. and it's odd in all cases, as many of the policies of these so-called populist and nationalist and anti-elitist politicians/parties are geared, directly or indirectly, towards fucking over the majority of people, ordinary or otherwise..

 

 

 

Well my vote - if I had voted Lib Dem would have been cast in Salford/Manchester and so would have been wasted because that area is staunchly Labour.  I think the total collapse of Labour will not happen even though I'm sure they will loose badly on the night.  I notice UKIP is fast disappearing - which is a relief (but only because of 'job done' I suppose).  What happens in Scotland will be interesting - the Tories seem to be gaining ground and they may use any increase in vote there as a vote against a second independence referendum.

 

I think Trump used Brexit/Farage just as a meme for 'vote against the elite' - but for me that is the only link.  Le Pen in France is a different matter as she seems to have a large genuine popular following in distinct geographical areas (which is a bit like Trump except he had a lot of switch voters from Obama).  Someone pointed out that the geographical split is almost exactly the ancient Frankish vs. Angevine empires!  Maybe there are some very basic traditional values being tested here.  I hope she doesn't win but I can't help seeing macron as another Blair (and he's best mates with George Osbourne!!!).

[Aetherous]

I guess all these persons listed here should be deported even though their families have been here for generations and most of these persons converted to Islam? Shaguille O'Neill, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar should be thrown out of the USA? These are just two examples of thousands.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_Muslims

 

Under Aetherous rule, any Islam would be outlawed, since I don't view it as a religion but as a front for terrorism. We're all lucky I'm not the ruler. (Or not so lucky, as terrorists are permitted to continue doing what they do as a result of our collective weakness.)

[Brian]

"King Aetherous" does have a certain ring to it...

[dust]

Under Aetherous rule, any Islam would be outlawed, since I don't view it as a religion but as a front for terrorism. We're all lucky I'm not the ruler. (Or not so lucky, as terrorists are permitted to continue doing what they do as a result of our collective weakness.)

 

I don't think you truly believe that all Muslims are terrorists (which Islam is a front for terrorism implies) but just to be sure,

 

https://muslimheroes.wordpress.com/

 

Obviously this is a blog dedicated to showing nice Muslims, not nasty ones. The point is that there are a lot of Muslims out there who are really wonderful people, just like there are loads of wonderful Christians and Jews and Buddhists and Hindus and atheists and whatever. And if we extend that, there are also a lot of average ones, and etc etc...

 

Islam is not a front for terrorism: there are strict scripture Muslims, who might be likely to believe in violence for Allah, and there are Muslims who aren't really bothered about scripture, or who haven't really read the ahadith and don't really understand that Muhammad was (at best) a warlord. I don't understand why you must be so adamant in your singling out of Islam!

[Aetherous]

Islam is not a front for terrorism: there are strict scripture Muslims, who might be likely to believe in violence for Allah, and there are Muslims who aren't really bothered about scripture, or who haven't really read the ahadith and don't really understand that Muhammad was (at best) a warlord. I don't understand why you must be so adamant in your singling out of Islam!

 

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic and agreeing with me, or not...but for the reasons you just listed, they should become educated and distinguish themselves from Islamists by no longer being "Muslim". Muslim means to follow the scriptures, and worship Mohammed.

 

I'm adamant in singling out Islam because of all of the terrorism we've seen...it's 99.9% them.

[ralis]

I don't think you truly believe that all Muslims are terrorists (which Islam is a front for terrorism implies) but just to be sure,

 

https://muslimheroes.wordpress.com/

 

Obviously this is a blog dedicated to showing nice Muslims, not nasty ones. The point is that there are a lot of Muslims out there who are really wonderful people, just like there are loads of wonderful Christians and Jews and Buddhists and Hindus and atheists and whatever. And if we extend that, there are also a lot of average ones, and etc etc...

 

Islam is not a front for terrorism: there are strict scripture Muslims, who might be likely to believe in violence for Allah, and there are Muslims who aren't really bothered about scripture, or who haven't really read the ahadith and don't really understand that Muhammad was (at best) a warlord. I don't understand why you must be so adamant in your singling out of Islam!

 

 

The singling out is usually from fundamentalist Christians and I believe Aetherous is one according to a post he made several years ago. And, as we all know Christians have never done anything wrong in the name of a higher power/cause. There are some Christians that actually believe that last statement I made.

[Aetherous]

The singling out happens from any rational human being who isn't mind controlled, because the problem is so readily apparent.

[ralis]

The singling out happens from any rational human being who isn't mind controlled, because the problem is so readily apparent.

 

 

Your irrational statement that all Muslims must be deported is way out of line with reason.

[Aetherous]

Your irrational statement that all Muslims must be deported is way out of line with reason.

 

I'm not sure you know what irrational or reason mean...

[Brian]

http://crimeresearch.org/2017/01/with-39-killed-in-tunisia-attack-the-top-three-mass-public-shootings-are-outside-the-united-states/

[CloudHands]

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic and agreeing with me, or not...but for the reasons you just listed, they should become educated and distinguish themselves from Islamists by no longer being "Muslim". Muslim means to follow the scriptures, and worship Mohammed.

 

I'm adamant in singling out Islam because of all of the terrorism we've seen...it's 99.9% them.

 

*Facepalm*

 

Why, When and How do not rule in Aetherous kingdom ?

Edited April 30, 2017 by CloudHands

[CloudHands]

http://crimeresearch.org/2017/01/with-39-killed-in-tunisia-attack-the-top-three-mass-public-shootings-are-outside-the-united-states/

 

Are you trying to manage with some cognitive dissonance Brian ?

[Brian]

Are you trying to manage with some cognitive dissonance Brian ?

Did you read that study, CloudHands?

[CloudHands]

Did you read that study, CloudHands?

 

I seriously have no affinity with that article nor that whole website... sounds like they really trying to prove something... don't you think ?

 

The reality of what is called terrorism is something that is constantly in evolution since today change every day. Of course war is not terrorism and casual family shooting is not mass public shooting.