Mair 6:8

[Marblehead]

Master Yierh went to see Hsŭ Yu.  Hsu Yu {{A legendary hermit.  His name might be interpreted as "Promise Allow"}} asked him:  "How has Yao aided you?"

"Yao told me," said Master Yierh, "'You must dedicate yourself to humaneness and righteousness, and speak clearly about right and wrong.'"

"Then why have you come here?" asked Hsu Yu.  "Yao has already tattooed {{Typical corporal punishments in ancient China.}} you with humaneness and righteousness and lopped off your nose with right and wrong.  How will you be able to wander on the path of untroubled and untrammeled evolution?"

"That may be," said Master Yierh, "but I'd like to wander along its borders."

"No," said Hsŭ Yu, "he who is blind has nothing to do with the charm of human features; he who is sightless has nothing to do with the attraction of colorfully embroidered garments."

"Unadorned's disregard of her beauty," said Master Yierh, "Bridge Support's disregard of his strength, and the Yellow Emperor's abandonment of his knowledge {{Three figures (the first two imaginary, the third mythical) who gave up their distinguishing abilities after hearing about the Way.}} were all due to a process of remolding and reworking.  How do you know that the Creator of Things may not erase my tattoo and restore my nose, enabling me to avail myself of wholeness so that I may become your disciple?"

"Ah!" said Hsu Yu.  "That cannot yet be known.  But I will tell you in general.  My teacher, oh my teacher!  She blends the myriad things, but is not righteous; her benefits reach to a myriad generations but she is not humane.  She is senior to high antiquity but is not aged.  She covers heaven, supports earth, and carves out a host of forms, but is not skillful.  It is in this that one should roam."

Edited April 23, 2017 by Marblehead

[Marblehead]

That section sure got a lot of responses.  It was quite a challenge o keep up with what everyone said.

 

But it's time for the next section so Y'all please settle down.  Okay?

[Taoist Texts]

That section sure got a lot of responses.  It was quite a challenge o keep up with what everyone said.

This is a peculiarly complicated section and the translation is messed up. I looked at it, wanted to say something and realized that i dont even know where to start.

[Marblehead]

Fair enough.  I agree that it is difficult finding any significance in the section.

 

Two things I see though are:

 

We can know the past be we cannot know the future until it arrives.

 

There is always the possibility for change.

[Stosh]

This is a peculiarly complicated section and the translation is messed up. I looked at it, wanted to say something and realized that i dont even know where to start.

Perhaps just rewrite the last paragraph and we can get the basic idea of what is perhaps not matching up?

[Taoist Texts]

I will try). but still this got me scratching me head

 

How do you know that the Creator of Things may not erase my tattoo and restore my nose, enabling me to avail myself of wholeness so that I may become your disciple?"

 

 

What, he grows a new nose or something? Or is he talking about the next reincarnation? Marbles does not like reincarnations.

[Michael Sternbach]

To me, this highlights the defiance of the moralistic perspective that is so typical of most religions. I had many discussions about that with Christians, Buddhists and, yes, even Daoists who were all hard pressed to go beyond their judgemental views.

 

The Dao is good, but in its own unclassifiable ways. So is the sage. Sometimes leaving those baffled who cling to rigid and abstract systems of 'right' and 'wrong', rather than adapting to the ever changing requirements that life in its subtlety presents. At least if it's supposed to be a happy one.

[Stosh]

I will try). but still this got me scratching me head

 

 

What, he grows a new nose or something? Or is he talking about the next reincarnation? Marbles does not like reincarnations.

I would imagine that the nose represented some trait , or crime which he would be renewed about.

As in,  'wiping the slate clean'.

[Michael Sternbach]

How do you know that the Creator of Things may not erase my tattoo and restore my nose, enabling me to avail myself of wholeness so that I may become your disciple?"

Yierh's nose being lopped off with right and wrong means that Yierh could no longer smell his way the way a dog does, so to speak.Growing a new nose would enable him to be whole again, as well as holistic: Seeing the bigger picture. Thus reacting to the situations that the ever changing Dao provides with vivid sensibility rather than with a set of rigid rules.

[Marblehead]

I will try). but still this got me scratching me head

 

 

What, he grows a new nose or something? Or is he talking about the next reincarnation? Marbles does not like reincarnations.

 

You are correct.  Marbles doesn't like reincarnation.

 

And no, I don't believe it is possible to grow a new nose.

 

And this that we are speaking to now causes me to think that we are having a problem with external appearances vs inner essence. 

 

Makes me wonder.

[Marblehead]

I would imagine that the nose represented some trait , or crime which he would be renewed about.

As in,  'wiping the slate clean'.

 

I like that view.

[Marblehead]

And then, maybe we are supposed to read this figuratively and and find a deeper meaning in it?

[dawei]

The branding and nose thing was a form of punish in ancient china.  I think it was referenced as a metaphorical mutilation to suggest that such 'punishments' are irreversible if taken from their rigid [physical] point of view; you can't physically grow a new nose but you can re-grow or re-shape your understanding of the Way.

 

Master Yierh talks of wandering or roaming the border... like walking along the shoreline and touching a toe to the water to claim to have experienced the water.

 

Hsŭ Yu suggests to reside with the waves and be one with the ebb and flow of the water.

[Taoist Texts]

Yes, ye olde gentlemen are right. The cut and regrown nose is a metaphor for indoctrination and purging of it.

 

The last para.:

Xu yu says: where we to go together it is not known but i will give you a hint. My teacher is someplace that covers the heaven and earth, and is unlimitedly creative. That's where he roams already.

[morning dew]

On 2017-4-24 at 0:15 AM, Marblehead said:

Master Yierh went to see Hsŭ Yu.  Hsu Yu {{A legendary hermit.  His name might be interpreted as "Promise Allow"}} asked him:  "How has Yao aided you?"

"Yao told me," said Master Yierh, "'You must dedicate yourself to humaneness and righteousness, and speak clearly about right and wrong.'"

"Then why have you come here?" asked Hsu Yu.  "Yao has already tattooed {{Typical corporal punishments in ancient China.}} you with humaneness and righteousness and lopped off your nose with right and wrong.  How will you be able to wander on the path of untroubled and untrammeled evolution?"

"That may be," said Master Yierh, "but I'd like to wander along its borders."

"No," said Hsŭ Yu, "he who is blind has nothing to do with the charm of human features; he who is sightless has nothing to do with the attraction of colorfully embroidered garments."

 

 

Yeah, I also took this first bit as being metaphorical/symbolic.

 

I wonder if Master Yierh was a Confucian? In any case, my take is that (Hsu Yu thinks) Master Yierh has been brainwashed/indoctrinated into a particular perspective that is universal and he's curious about what else might be out there.

 

I'm guessing Hsu Yu's response is basically saying you can't really just dip a toe into it and that you have to make a discrete leap from a universal perspective to a situation-based one when it comes to behaviour and ethics. You can't sag halfway between the two: you are either working with universal principles or 'sniffing'/following your nose, taking each situation one at a time and as unique.

eta: I guess, thinking a little bit more, this is a kind of logical system vs intuition approach to ethical behaviour.

Edited June 28, 2017 by morning dew

[Marblehead]

Yes, When Chuang Tzu speaks of humaneness and righteousness he is speaking of the Confucian concepts (which, basically, he does not agree with.

 

And I agree with you that we must take that leap into trusting the universe.