Mabu stance

[Gerard]

Does anyone know what is the correct way of executing this exercise which is the core of many MA styles, including the Taoist internal?

 

My purpose is strengthening not the muscles but the tendons as discussed in this article written by Bagua master He Jing-Han:

 

http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/hejinghan-bagua...p;l=a&fid=5

 

 

Thanks in advance.

[Yue]

Stand with your feet slightly more than shoulder width apart, and bend your knees so the backs of your thighs and calves form a right angle.

[Jakara]

Are you asking the correct method for horse stance (Mabu)?

 

The stance is quite deep, and used often in qi-gong etc. The easiest way to explain it with text is to get into the basic stance and then correct each part of your body bit by bit. By far the best way is to do it in a mirror, then check you look as much like a reference picture as your flexibility will allow.

 

First put your feet just over shoulder width apart,

 

Make sure both feet are always facing dead straight forwards, don't turn them outwards or inwards at any time, a typical mistake is to turn the feet outwards when you bend your knees.

 

keep your feet flat on the floor (don't go on tip-toes or your heels)

 

Keeping your back absolutely straight, bend your knees so your begin to squat down, but keep your ass inline with your spine, don't stick it out behind you - that would be toilet stance. Bend your legs, not your body.

 

Push your knees out sideways (this is important), so each knee is roughly over the corresponding foot, and sink a little more into the stance. When you sink in the stance, the knees push outwards and your legs bend, you do not bend your body over or stick your ass out.

 

Check that your back is straight, your feet are facing forwards and not turned outwards, your knees are over your feet (as far as you can), your ass is tucked inline with your body.

 

Your arms can be held behind your back, in front of you straight in the bell stance, or more commonly clench your fists and retract your arms to your sides so your hands are facing palm-side up and at chest height, your elbows are therefore behind you.

 

Its a tough stance when you do it properly, most have trouble holding it for more than 30 seconds, during which time you will feel your heart beating more rapidly, so adjust your breathing rate accordingly.

 

Here is a picture (his arms should be held higher up):

http://www.fightingarts.com/content00/graphics/kibas5.jpg

 

Note that this guy is very flexible, his thighs are horizontal - parallel with the floor, and hence his stance is very wide because the whole of his thighs are pushed outwards. This is for stretching purposes, in real horse stance used in kungfu the thighs are very low but not quite horizontal, making a slightly narrower stance.

Edited December 23, 2007 by Jakara

[Taomeow]

 

Here is a picture (his arms should be held higher up):

http://www.fightingarts.com/content00/graphics/kibas5.jpg

 

Note that this guy is very flexible, his thighs are horizontal - parallel with the floor, and hence his stance is very wide because the whole of his thighs are pushed outwards. This is for stretching purposes, in real horse stance used in kungfu the thighs are very low but not quite horizontal, making a slightly narrower stance.

 

Um... per my training, this is a horrible mabu. Flexible he isn't -- his kua is closed, and so he has to completely misalign his knees and ankles in order to stand this wide and low. His knees buckle inward! -- there's no stability to this stance, I could knock him down with a feather. Practicing this way -- going for "impressive" low stances before one is able to open the kua and the yao -- will destroy the knees (which is the reason 85% of all people who start MA incorrectly are forced to quit, according to Wong Kiew Kit.)

[MASTERforge]

In my opinion the photo shows ma bu over done. I think beyond a certain level when you sink down it goes from training root to damaging your knees. It just looks good. Impressive for WuShu demonstrations though.

 

The point of ma bu is to develop rooting for Jin. I have found the best way to develop rooting and Jin is through coiling Qi Gong. There you learn to connect the body and find your root.

 

Then you can sink your chi and and use your root to emit fa jin.

[mYTHmAKER]

Agreed he is too stiff and his body is not song - relaxed.

Stance is too wide with too much stress on knees.

[rain]

the pose has been described various places in the forum

Edited December 24, 2007 by rain

[Gerard]

Thanks for your replies, guys.

 

The problem I have is a tilted pelvis which makes things very difficult when it comes to maintaining an upright back.

 

So what do I need to do in order to keep the right stance?

 

In my case I guess I need to widen my leg posture otherwise I will be bending my back in excess due to my natural shortcoming.

 

I don't want to exercise my muscles I am trying to target the tendons as explained in the link provided in my first post.

 

Thanks.

[Procurator]

 

 

So what do I need to do in order to keep the right stance?

 

....

 

I don't want to exercise my muscles I am trying to target the tendons as explained in the link provided in my first post.

 

Thanks.

you need to use your mind.

[Gerard]

you need to use your mind.

 

 

Care to develop that answer?

 

Thanks.

[thaddeus]

Does anyone know what is the correct way of executing this exercise which is the core of many MA styles, including the Taoist internal?

 

My purpose is strengthening not the muscles but the tendons as discussed in this article written by Bagua master He Jing-Han:

 

http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/hejinghan-bagua...p;l=a&fid=5

Thanks in advance.

I think what you're asking is how to strengthen tendons, not necessarily how to do a horse stance. This article was a difficult read, but what I think he's saying is to exercise the tendons, you need to relax the muscles and let the joints open by pulling apart (extension).

You need to have someone reputable show you mabu, no one is going to give you a magic tip over the internet.

I do think you need to find the bows, have someone explain the arch he's talking about for a proper mabu.

I think Master He has a lot of videos on youtube for more info.

T

[doc benway]

It definitely helps to have personal instruction. If you're just starting mabu it will feel very awkward and you won't be able to achieve a deep stance without losing proper posture. Here are some recommendations and observations:

1. I think the guy in the photo above has his feet much too wide. The feet should be under the knees, more or less.

2. Start in natural stance. Feet at shoulder width, facing forward and parallel. Crown of head is directly over the middle of the pelvis - more or less between the genitals and anus.

3. Little by little, widen your stance without losing vertical alignment of head over center of pelvis. Tilt chin slightly in, extend neck, extend lower back. Coccyx slightly tucks under.

4. As the feet get further apart, so do the knees. Always comfortable. Waist and hips relaxed.

5. Eventually you'll get wider and deeper but remember not to let the feet much wider than the knees.

It will take a long time to get a deep stance without losing proper posture, be patient.

Edited December 24, 2007 by xuesheng

[Gerard]

I found these two videos on YouTube:

 

 

The second one shows He Jing-Han.

 

Thanks for your help.

Edited December 25, 2007 by durkhrod chogori

[Procurator]

Care to develop that answer?

 

Thanks.

 

i cant. it is an important secret and i do not know you. my job here is to provide you with a not-so-subtle hint. Thaddeus above have added value. The rest of comments were about the externalities. externalities are not important.

[Jakara]

There's no mystical secret to horse stance, its just proper technique and regular practice. Ignore any new age mumbo jumbo thats being spewn about. Once the proper stance is acheived the rest occurs naturally by itself.

 

The picture I linked previously is a good example to a certain degree, though as I did say at the end of my last post - the picture shows deep stretching, and real horse is not as low down, but otherwise his form is excellent.

 

The guy in that picture is an authority on stretching but not a martial artist, infact he can side split across two chairs with people sitting on his legs - his stance is both flexible, steady and strong. It does take time to get lower in horse stance, though the aim is not to get as low as possible.

 

A lower stance lowers the centre of gravity making for a more stable stance, but too low and it will become too wide making it hard to cover in defence.

 

The first video you linked looks fine, the second not so much as their asses are sticking out a bit.

 

Im a senior in a traditional kungfu school with a full lineage based in taiwan, none of the new rubbish china is currently pumping out. Im happy to go over the finer details here or in private if you want to PM me, though I obviously can't teach full techniques without my teacher's permission, I can however go into as much detail as you'd like with stances, including horse.

[WhiteTiger]

Here is a picture (his arms should be held higher up):

http://www.fightingarts.com/content00/graphics/kibas5.jpg

 

Note that this guy is very flexible, his thighs are horizontal - parallel with the floor, and hence his stance is very wide because the whole of his thighs are pushed outwards. This is for stretching purposes, in real horse stance used in kungfu the thighs are very low but not quite horizontal, making a slightly narrower stance.

 

ROFL nice stance

[Jakara]

Perhaps this is a better example, its a bit higher up and therefore more accurate, but the principles remain the same.

 

http://z.about.com/d/martialarts/1/0/t/6/horse.jpg

[thaddeus]

Perhaps this is a better example, its a bit higher up and therefore more accurate, but the principles remain the same.

 

http://z.about.com/d/martialarts/1/0/t/6/horse.jpg

 

If someone wants to study pictures of the stances, then they should google acknowledged Internal masters such as chen fake, chen xiaowang, sun lu tang, etc. etc.

 

I understand the points that Jakara is trying to make, however for neijia purposes, this photo is not the best example. The artist is rolling on the outside edge of the feet, esp. the left foot, too much tension in the upper body. There is no rotation in the body, power is going out to the sides in straight lines instead of down and up.

 

In a good stance you should be able to catch a 'knife hand' in the kwa (inguinal crease).

 

Stance study is very interesting. There is lots to learn from a discussion like this.

 

T

[WhiteTiger]

If someone wants to study pictures of the stances, then they should google acknowledged Internal masters such as chen fake, chen xiaowang, sun lu tang, etc. etc.

 

I understand the points that Jakara is trying to make, however for neijia purposes, this photo is not the best example. The artist is rolling on the outside edge of the feet, esp. the left foot, too much tension in the upper body. There is no rotation in the body, power is going out to the sides in straight lines instead of down and up.

 

In a good stance you should be able to catch a 'knife hand' in the kwa (inguinal crease).

 

Stance study is very interesting. There is lots to learn from a discussion like this.

 

T

 

YAY, its nice to see some people have proper understanding and experiences. well put.

 

Yes i so many many problem within her stance.

 

Gunna look up those names for pictures of good mabu might post ones i see that are good. Or even better yet might ask questions about them! omg, i love to learn!

 

Where exactly is the the kwa the inguinal crease? I'm not familiarized wit this? from what art does neijia come from?

[thaddeus]

Where exactly is the the kwa the inguinal crease? I'm not familiarized wit this? from what art does neijia come from?

Google Inguinal Crease for pictures. In a good stance you should be able to trap the edge of a hand in there. Neijia is just a general term for internal arts like taiji, xingyi, bagua. But the elements of a good stance should be foundational for all systems, what works works regardless of dogma.

 

This stuff is very difficult to do. Here's something to chew on for awhile:

http://internalartsia.wordpress.com/2006/0...age-of-the-kua/

T

[Jakara]

The pictures I linked are from a quick google search at the spare of the moment simply to give an understanding of what the stance looks like, by all means don't take them as the highest model of what to go by, they are just examples.

 

The style I practice might be considered a "hard" style when compared to styles like xingyi or bagua, perhaps different points of horse are emphasized for internal culitvation than for combat - which is where my horse stance experience is based. Or it might simply be my inability to communicate the finer points across the internet.

 

If you have a more accurate picture for the context of this subject then please post it to help further the understanding.

[thelerner]

You've gotten some excellent advice here. Having an experienced person check your stance and make adjustments would be even better though.

 

Only thing left is practice. Standing practice is very powerful. There's a guided meditation I'll sometimes use when I stand. Its from Rawn Clarks Abardoncompanion.com. Its a free 15 minute meditation, the first from his Archaeous series. Like all the mp3 meditations there it is free and easy to download.

 

Like most he starts by relaxes the body. What makes it unusual is the elemental style of it. He equates the hips down to earth. Strength. Hips up to rib cage as water, flexible but substantial. Ribs to neck as air, light. Above as sun, awareness.

 

It makes the time go by faster and a 15 minute stand seem easier.

 

Others might have touched on this. When I stand or sit, I mentally have an elastic chord slightly stretching up the back center of my head, one slightly stretching down near my tail bone and two more slightly pulling my shoulders, stretching them (lightly) wider, opening my chest.

 

 

Michael

[WhiteTiger]

 

Yes i so many many problem within her stance.

 

 

I'm sorry if i came off a little mean.

 

Now, i don't know this person. But from the looks of it she does some weight training, because it shows in her upper body. If she is training her upper body more then her stances then her stances will turn out worse. If she is training them side by side. Like I did originally your mabu will not evolve. sad but true

 

The style I practice might be considered a "hard" style when compared to styles like xingyi or bagua, perhaps different points of horse are emphasized for internal culitvation than for combat - which is where my horse stance experience is based. Or it might simply be my inability to communicate the finer points across the internet.

 

If you have a more accurate picture for the context of this subject then please post it to help further the understanding.

 

Good point, I'm not helping out by bashing. I have spent some time writing a little something on the subject. hopfully i will post it soon.

 

And searching over the internet for a good mabu... this might take me some time ROFL. ok:

 

http://www.kampkunster.no/klubber/bergen-s....jpg/image_mini

 

Is an alright example, he still has some stuff to work on. but it shows you the stance from only the front. his feet should be more parallel. this is a decent example because what he needs to change are much smaller adjustments but it is important specially that this is the foundation stance of almost all arts.

 

His knees could be slightly closer in line with his Toes, but thats picking on him. He has some upper body tension, if he was flexing what looks to be bridge hands, that would explain why. From the looks of it he doesn't have any what they call lower back locked up. basically the lower lumbar muscles not tensed. It looks like his tail bone isn't tucked in... which is a really really big no no. We are talking specifically about stationary mabu. Any mabu moving or was moving into something else as slightly different circumstances which means the function of what your doing is much different there for it will be changed. For external martial arts that i learned. it shows good feel placement, for a stationary mabu for exercising, where it shows you the feet is good example. Yet from the structure of the drawing i can already realize how unrealistic compared to a real body, and doesn't give enough definition to look at but still the foot pattern gives you a good idea. (its maybe one degree inward to much, maybe a degree in a half or many 3degrees but degrees only have big effect over long distances as where this doesn't but trainning your body exactly like this isn't good) Which bring me to the idea GO GET A TEACHER TO TEACH you these things... much better.

http://www.doppiofuoco.com/Res/Posizioni/3Mabu2.jpg

 

As i start to explain these things i don't want you to think that it can be done with force or strong effort but over time of your body getting adjusted, in other words if you use force you can hurt yourself, or you can just start taking away your stance from in another place to make one place look good. This takes TIME PEOPLE! Practice and hard work.

 

spent a good deal of time searching for these things... looking at stuff... i think i've gotten my point across.

 

But me doing this is not better then learning from a teacher... to get an instructer really.

 

REALLY!!!

 

 

*Sigh* XingYi and BaGua are devistating internal martial arts. If you actually find a teacher that teaches this. can teach you the cultivation which most likely will be for combat! Because Xingyi was popularized by General Yue Fei when he taught his army the system. They changed it around a little is my understanding for teaching purposes but lots of the rediculously desvistating parts of it are still there. BaGua is similar, similar and said by legand to be equal to XingYi

Edited December 27, 2007 by WhiteTiger

[thaddeus]

If you have a more accurate picture for the context of this subject then please post it to help further the understanding.

I was thinking a bit on this, it's very easy to pick apart pictures. Another way of looking at this is to post a picture of an acknowledged expert and see what we can learn from it.

example:

http://www.tai-qi-gong.com/Images%20Global...owang%20180.jpg

This is chen xiaowang in the form

and

http://www.wctag.de/grafik/Bilder_2007/art...an-zhuang_1.jpg

 

doing a standing practice.

 

Jakara, can you post someone from your style to compare the stances?

 

later edit..i just want to add one thing, i learned that many things that are argued about between styles are actually not essential. The important thing is the ability to transmit power correctly and efficiently. That's the tough nut to crack.

 

T

[Taomeow]

 

later edit..i just want to add one thing, i learned that many things that are argued about between styles are actually not essential. The important thing is the ability to transmit power correctly and efficiently. That's the tough nut to crack.

 

T

 

"In matters of style, go with the flow. In matters of principle, stand like a rock." -- Thomas Jefferson