Mabu stance

[Jakara]

 

example:

http://www.tai-qi-gong.com/Images%20Global...owang%20180.jpg

This is chen xiaowang in the form

and

http://www.wctag.de/grafik/Bilder_2007/art...an-zhuang_1.jpg

 

doing a standing practice.

 

Jakara, can you post someone from your style to compare the stances?

 

T

 

The first guy looks more like combat style, the second looks more like the energy cultivation type, which I think is what is being shown respectively.

 

The combat type seems to stress a low solid stance that is required to execute a powerful attack or defence with proper grounding. The energy cultivation type I guess is more focussed on correct bodily alignment for proper energy flow rather than a deep rooting in the ground to withstand an attack.

Though im just speculating at this point, as I said before my experience is in combat and I use the same combat stance for energy cultivation with good results.

 

I don't have any pictures of myself doing the stance, im a little reluctant to post any. I study a northern praying mantis style, just for reference. Any combat styled horse stance is similar to the one i do, the first picture you posted is a good example.

[thaddeus]

The combat type seems to stress a low solid stance that is required to execute a powerful attack or defence with proper grounding. The energy cultivation type I guess is more focussed on correct bodily alignment for proper energy flow rather than a deep rooting in the ground to withstand an attack.

Though im just speculating at this point, as I said before my experience is in combat and I use the same combat stance for energy cultivation with good results.

yes, they are both the same. a combat stance is stable in all directions, internal arts often describe power in six directions. it just so happens that the proper alignments for energy flows makes the body stable, rooted, yet nimble for combat. That's what makes the internal arts so interesting to study, imo.

T

[WhiteTiger]

The first guy looks more like combat style, the second looks more like the energy cultivation type, which I think is what is being shown respectively.

 

The combat type seems to stress a low solid stance that is required to execute a powerful attack or defence with proper grounding. The energy cultivation type I guess is more focussed on correct bodily alignment for proper energy flow rather than a deep rooting in the ground to withstand an attack.

Though im just speculating at this point, as I said before my experience is in combat and I use the same combat stance for energy cultivation with good results.

 

Have you done internal styles or Qi Gong exercises? Depending on the Qi Gong there for different reasons that help supplement what your doing. They serve a good purpose. Internal Martial Arts are martial arts. There not just spiritual cultivation. If you were to look for a internal martial artist, most likely they would teach you whatever they knew has a martial art. Most aren't spiritual. A teacher of mine once privately sent me this (buddhist cultivation) Once again Cultivation can be for combat or spiritual purposes. You have a misconception of what internal art is (i.e. what you said about XingYi, BaGua and you just said in this past post about "energy cultivation type i guess is more focussed on correct bodily alignment for proper energy flow")

 

The main so called Buddhist methods are :

 

1. meditation

2. concentration

3. breath control

4. health nourishing

5. mental skills training

6. medical use

7. martial use

8. spiritual use

 

That being said, anyone that has a great knowledge, awareness understanding for not just one exercise but a whole system they know for spiritual use they should have a great knowledge of how to use it for its martial use. Weather they teach or learned martial use is a different story altogether.

 

The way I personally look at martial arts. There are three things you should work on, and the importance goes in this order to.

 

One the art. It is artistic structure of the art itself. This is very important, if you have a stance you wanna practice it until it is as close to perfect as possible because its artistic trying to move in your form where you have almost perfect transitions. (lots of experts can generate great about of power, yet how perfect there transitions is questionable, yet at the same time no one will say anything because there understanding and there power generation is better then yours. Remember there fighters also, that are better then you. Would you ever say to an older master in there 80s that there stance is slightly off in this way when they transition... they might practice or demonstrate why it isn't, were i learn they would demonstrate on YOU. Well depends the intent of your question. To what level are they threating you abilities because they do if off a little. Well my point is your supposed to work for perfections its an art trying to do this takes time and you MUST LOOK INWARD FOR THIS! For a quick example, If they openly tell you or how power is generated, then you can work for perfecting that ability, not just by exercising muscle but utilizing your structure to the fullest extent, which is why it is an art getting this closest to perfection. But in many systems by perfecting the structure of your body more then just power is it determining, but also technique and if you read up on technique it involves more then just power.

 

Two Relaxation or the grace involved. This comes through lots and lots of practice. This is no simple or easy thing task to fully complete. This means the effectiveness of your ability. because how smooth, graceful, and relaxed you are through each move. Its as if your a master making something look extremely easy. This coincides with some of the stuff Lao Tzu said. "The way is simple"

 

Three Power. To learn to generate power better.

 

I understand quit clearly that the longer i went down the list, i say less about it. why is this... well you should figure it out honestly. Why should you figure it out. well not everything is going to be handed to you on a silver plate. You must work for what you want to learn.

 

Jakara, I think you should read the post I started about Tai Chi. You will most likely learn some great insight and also hopefully learning Tai Chi is also for Martial use! Just like Xingyi, and BaGua. Title name is Different teachings Taiji:

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/different-teachi...aiji-t4404.html

Edited December 28, 2007 by WhiteTiger

[Buddy]

Jazus,

It's just a horse stance. There's a northern version and a southern version. But, bottom line is, it's stance training, no enlightenment here. Please don't make more of it than it is. It's gongfu, nothing more, nothing less.

[Jakara]

Thanks for the input. My teacher practices Chen and Wu style Tai Chi and assures me that it is one of the highest martial arts, capable of defeating styles like praying mantis and therefore shouldn't be mistaken for a form of healthy exercise (as is often the case in the west) or any other misconception. I completely accept that, he has more experience than I do.

 

My experience lies in the "harder" styles, so that is where my input on horse stance comes from - I can't comment on anything outside of my own experience. Im happy and interested to share experiences from other styles, please continue.

 

No, I have no experience in the softer styles of martial arts. I practice two types of qigong, the first set is soft and dynamic designed to stimulate qi flow and nourish vital organs, the second is a hard qigong set designed soley for martial arts purposes.

 

I have little experience with energy cultivation in the context for spiritual progress, its something im currently researching, at the moment i practice wu-wei daoist non-conceptual meditation (zuowang), and daoyin (daoist yoga).

 

Im very familiar with hard work. No need for a silver plate, im happy to give out any and all information I have experience with, Im hoping for the same in return if your tradition allows it. We are all in the same relationship with Dao.

Edited December 28, 2007 by Jakara

[WhiteTiger]

Jazus,

It's just a horse stance. There's a northern version and a southern version. But, bottom line is, it's stance training, no enlightenment here. Please don't make more of it than it is. It's gongfu, nothing more, nothing less.

 

You know your right. And I'm sorry I don't mean to be changing the subject all the time. Were talking about how to do a horse stance. You are right Practice as you know what is a horse stance and continue to do so under the guidance of a teacher. Then from there it should evolve.

 

I was talking about a few different topics, (that might have come up related in the talks but was OFF TOPIC) one the way you train is what i got into lastly and that wasn't what this discussion was about. I'm sorry for that. Second i got into the the fact that if a person is spiritual and learned internal art from his spiritual teachers they know how to manipulate Yin, Yang, (more known in Tai Chi) and other elements within the body (more known in other internal martial arts)

 

what is Gong Fu to you? They just movements? Just stances?

 

Thanks for the input. My teacher practices Chen and Wu style Tai Chi and assures me that it is one of the highest martial arts, capable of defeating styles like praying mantis and therefore shouldn't be mistaken for a form of healthy exercise (as is often the case in the west) or any other misconception. I completely accept that, he has more experience than I do.

 

My experience lies in the "harder" styles, so that is where my input on horse stance comes from - I can't comment on anything outside of my own experience. Im happy and interested to share experiences from other styles, please continue.

 

No, I have no experience in the softer styles of martial arts. I practice two types of qigong, the first set is soft and dynamic designed to stimulate qi flow and nourish vital organs, the second is a hard qigong set designed soley for martial arts purposes.

 

I have little experience with energy cultivation in the context for spiritual progress, its something im currently researching, at the moment i practice wu-wei daoist non-conceptual meditation (zuowang), and daoyin (daoist yoga).

 

Im very familiar with hard work. No need for a silver plate, im happy to give out any and all information I have experience with, Im hoping for the same in return if your tradition allows it. We are all in the same relationship with Dao.

 

Most of what i said isn't aimed at you. I was just saying to everyone that reads these things in general the points that are in caps are not me yelling but rather putting high emphasis into what I'm saying. The part where i said Internal arts i was aiming at you. just the idea i got from reading how you describe internal arts has a lot of misconceptions of understanding of internal arts.

 

What information were you hoping to learn what interests you maybe I have some information on it maybe not. Most of what I'm currently speaking of I have a good conceptual understanding of. At the same time though almost all i have mentioned i have experienced to what degree is a different story and thus why i call myself just a student with low abilities and not much knowledge to offer compared to a teacher, and many many times less compared to a Master.

[thaddeus]

I have little experience with energy cultivation in the context for spiritual progress, its something im currently researching, at the moment i practice wu-wei daoist non-conceptual meditation (zuowang), and daoyin (daoist yoga).

 

Not to change the subject too much, but can you tell me where you are learning the daoyin? I've been looking into this. There seems to be japanese versions and chinese versions floating about. I'm familiar with Mantak Chia's set and I have a book on Japanese exercises. Also have seen Master Ni's video and book. I'm curious if there is any formal lineage out there. Chia's is the only one I've seen that seems to have a central theme (psoas exercises).

T

 

 

what is Gong Fu to you? They just movements? Just stances?

remember when bruce lee said, 'when i first learned martial arts, a kick was just a kick, a punch was just a punch. After learning a bit, i realized a kick was not just a kick and a punch was not just a punch. Now, after some time of mastery (i'm paraphrasing alot from memory) a kick is just a kick and a punch is just a punch.'

[Jakara]

Not to change the subject too much, but can you tell me where you are learning the daoyin? I've been looking into this. There seems to be japanese versions and chinese versions floating about. I'm familiar with Mantak Chia's set and I have a book on Japanese exercises. Also have seen Master Ni's video and book. I'm curious if there is any formal lineage out there. Chia's is the only one I've seen that seems to have a central theme

 

The daoyin was taught to me by a daoist priest, but the main exercises are a traditional set called the "eight pieces/section of brocade" or however you want to translate it.

There are lots of free sites describing the practices if you google it, though there seems to be two different sets both labelled as the eight sections, one standing and one sitting, im refering to the traditional sitting one.

Actually Ill write their names (im aware there are 9) so you can look them up accurately, they are in performing order:

 

Tappng the teeth

Beating the heavenly drum

Shaking the heavenly pillar

Red dragon stiring the heavenly pool

Massaging the kidneys

Single shoulder rotation massaging lower dan tien

Double shoulder rotation massaging upper dan tien and spine

Pushing up to heaven

Grasping the feet

 

I think the best book on it was by "stuart alve olson" called "qigong teachings of a taoist immortal".

 

As with most qigong exercies they are very simple to perform (and very effective), even if you have no prior experience. If you get a good book on them or understand the basic principles of qigong you can do them without personal instruction from a teacher no problem. I practiced these for a while from a book before going over them with a daoist priest and there was no difference in the way I was performing them. Theyre great for martial artists too, do this type of daoyin for 20 mins twice a day for just 2 or 3 days and notice how flexible and light your body becomes.

[WhiteTiger]

 

remember when bruce lee said, 'when i first learned martial arts, a kick was just a kick, a punch was just a punch. After learning a bit, i realized a kick was not just a kick and a punch was not just a punch. Now, after some time of mastery (i'm paraphrasing alot from memory) a kick is just a kick and a punch is just a punch.'

 

First i want to point out my personal opinion about Bruce Lee, Not that i've studyed all his life and history. But to me he seemed weather he had ability or not an arogant person. And yes i thought he has enourmus ability and knew quite a bit, not like he was a Great Master or a Grand Master but his fighting abilities were great.

 

Yes, as generally something is taught to you simply. You learn it simply. You think it is simple. Then it evolves you learn how complicated it really is. Then after you have mastered if. IF YOU HAVE COMPLETELY MASTERED THE MOVE. I don't mean got it down well, i don't mean be an expert on the move, i don't mean do it better then anyone you've ever seen do it. I MEAN MASTERED IT! Then it will become simple to you again. I personally have never mastered a move. I could say some of the most basic things evolved with it and understood many parts of it and began to get lots or even most of the principles one a few of the most basic things. But as my limited understanding according to what I have ready in Tao Te Ching it should become Simple again. (this is also according to my Kung Fu teacher) Once you have mastered a move one has fully understand the all the principles involved an can manipulate its use and ability.

[Buddy]

 

Baji mabu.

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Stand on the balls of the feet to stretch and condition the leg tendons, this is what we do in our internal art its a meditation (Jaam Jong). Develops fast footwork, springy leg skills, light skills!

[freesun]

Stand on the balls of the feet to stretch and condition the leg tendons, this is what we do in our internal art its a meditation (Jaam Jong). Develops fast footwork, springy leg skills, light skills!

 

What is the difference between Zhan Zhuang and Jaam Jong? Sorry if this may be obvious, I'm a newbie

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Sorry that was cantonese (jaam jong) for zhan zhuang!

[Gerard]

Zhan zhuang meditation has got nothing to do with Mabu stance conditioning for Neijia.

 

Regards.

[Buddy]

Really?

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Zhan zhuang meditation has got nothing to do with Mabu stance conditioning for Neijia.

 

I disagree, please explain why u think it has nothing to do with Zhan Zhuang?

 

You dont know what arts i practise or anything how i train my Mabu that is a very narrow minded answer!!!

[Gerard]

I don't know why you get angry for??

 

What I said is what I feel, maybe you feel differently, then go ahead take ZZ as martial arts conditioning. I see and approach ZZ differently. This is the way I see it:

 

ZZ is too static and works directly (without using physical movement) with the internal aspect of your body and you are detaching from the external environment as you are slowing down your breathing while your eyes are shut. It would be the best Qigong because you are not moving externally, hence qi flow is faster. However, in this approach to Qigong the more doesn't mean the better.

 

Neijia work in a similar way but not so aggressively and are a good way to break from a constant ZZ routine.

 

Remember that DaMo taught moving energetic arts to the Shaolin monks because they were rotting their health after so much static work (maybe this is a legend but it makes sense to me).

 

Btw, I see Mabu a way of strengthening exercise for the lower part of your body.

[Buddy]

"ZZ is too static "

 

TOO static? It's a static exercise.

 

"It would be the best Qigong because you are not moving externally, hence qi flow is faster."

 

Well, let's establish that qi actually exists firsts. That you say "it" moves faster is purely presumptive at best.

 

"Neijia work in a similar way but not so aggressively and are a good way to break from a constant ZZ routine."

 

What on earth earth does this mean?

 

 

"Remember that DaMo taught moving energetic arts to the Shaolin monks because they were rotting their health after so much static work (maybe this is a legend but it makes sense to me)."

 

Well this sound like a lot of pretty stories to me and germane to real practice in these times.

 

Zhan Zhuang and Mabu are the same thing. One is deeper legwork is all. To think otherwise is silly.

[wenwu]

hhappy new year everyone

 

as usual I am replying to this far too late but here goes.

 

as far as i know the person in the photo is a gentleman called Tom Kurtz, pick up any martial aerts magazine in the UK and you will find adverts for his books on flexibility, he is a sport scientist and as far as i know not a well acomplished martial artist (but i am willing to be corrected on this pointed.) therefore his stances are done with strength and flexability in mind and not always with the same structure as martial artists would have.

 

i would like to see that picutre from a side on view to see how straight his spine is, but never the less the lack of structure between his knees and his hips means that he is using too much muscle to hold that stance and therefore it is useless for ZZ and even Martial arts and he is giving up a lot of mobility.

 

For ZZ your knees should be in line with your feet, this allows you to get real relaxation in your body and you can "lean" on your structure rather than using your muscles, the same is true for the upper body, you should push your Bai hui point up a little and this will striaghten your spine, there should be a line from your bai hui point to the point just behind your testicles (sorry forgot the name) and this should continue down and meet a line betwen your feet just in front of your heels, i keep my weight off my toes so that i can grip the ground with out using too much muscle.

 

just my 2 cents, if i am wrong please let me know

[Wun Yuen Gong]

I agree, that stance is not what i do either, my horse stance is from southern Hakka (Bak Mei)!

 

Although there are many stances single leg, hanging horse, front stance, feet together, any stance can be used for jaam jong as long as you stick to the main principles of centering.

 

WYG

[gendao]

I'm guessing that holding poses works out your stabilizer muscles, vs your "mover" muscles.

- Where "mover" muscles move your limbs around with a large range of motion.

- But, stabilizer muscles are more sinewy like tendons with very small ranges of motion. Because they are designed to stabilize parts - like tent lines.

 

But who knows...still pondering why...?!

Edited August 30, 2017 by gendao

[thaddeus]

The mobilizer/stabilizer theory has been bandied about alot in some circles, it's not new. The problem with that theory is that it sounds nice, but doesn't really hold up too well (no pun intended) under scrutiny. There are few, if any, pure stabilizer muscles that are holding up the body. Martial artists tend not to be anatomy experts so the various explanations one hears about sinews, blood vessels, etc. should be understood in that context. For example, many people believe the bones are used primarily to transfer forces, that may not be true, they may be more like spacers in the body. The fact that we don't even know how our bodies really work is very interesting.

T

[WhiteTiger]

I'm guessing that holding poses works out your stabilizer muscles, vs your "mover" muscles.

 

- Where "mover" muscles move your limbs around with a large range of motion.

 

- But, stabilizer muscles are more sinewy like tendons with very small ranges of motion. Because they are designed to stabilize parts - like tent lines.

 

Genius! When it becomes more and more evolved for static work... the targeting of more tendons and smaller muscles inside the knee is a Mabu that has been developed a little. This is only the foundation though. This is only to exercise the body. Its different when Moving.

 

The mobilizer/stabilizer theory has been bandied about alot in some circles, it's not new. The problem with that theory is that it sounds nice, but doesn't really hold up too well (no pun intended) under scrutiny. There are few, if any, pure stabilizer muscles that are holding up the body. Martial artists tend not to be anatomy experts so the various explanations one hears about sinews, blood vessels, etc. should be understood in that context. For example, many people believe the bones are used primarily to transfer forces, that may not be true, they may be more like spacers in the body. The fact that we don't even know how our bodies really work is very interesting.

T

 

You must realize that in Taoist teachings/texts there is something called the Ultimate One or the theory of Unity. who is talking about pure stabilizer muscles. Personally i don't agree it works the pure stabilizer muscles. But if were talking about targeting certain muscles and tendons for foundation thats a different story. From foundation you can work through moving the better your foundation the better your moving should be.

 

You must also realize that in Taoist teachings/texts there is something called change. The only thing that in constant is change. Change will happen. You can be sure of it.

 

From my understanding your claiming that martial artists believe bones are used to primarily to transfer forces... i don't know how told or taught you that... but the body works in unison. Yes the theory of body alignment the use of your lots or all body weight transfers force your force. Muscles and Tendons and how to unitize them is a different story... and involve many different techniques.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Honestly it is improper to say there are two types of muscles in the body. What you really mean depending what motion your doing. there are three basic muscles parts working. Depending on what action or exercise your doing determines exactly what the function of these certain muscles are. One act as the stablizers, two act as the ones that are directly being used in big ranges of motion for the specific action your doing. The others (i forget the name proper name off hand) they work synergistically together, taking the opposite force that you happen to be applying to them from the motion your doing, and get worked less) Those muscles are really what they call the ones not targeted withing the work out but still have to be exercised thus why i am claiming to call them the ones that synergistically work together with the muscles that are the moving in big ranges of motion. This gets into weight training and theories on the matter.

 

According to anatomy, there are three types of muscles in the body. Skeletal muscles more well known as (which is techniqually nickname) voluntary muscles is more common understood name, those are the ones we normally think of lifting weights. Its the muscles ones we use to change the motion of our limbs. Smooth muscles, internal organs that are also more well known as involuntary muscles. It is believe by westerns from my readings that Involuntary muscles can not be changed voluntarily. I don't think all western doctors believe this but this is what is mainly taught in school. I think thats been a long misperception either in our teachings or really we westerns are not taught correctly. The third type of Muscle in the body is Cardiac Muscles. There are three types of muscles for different functions in the body and are built different in according

 

Picture of the muscles under microscope (not a very good one better to show you one with each fibers of the muscle difference would give you better idea): http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...cle_tissues.jpg

 

Smooth Muscles link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smooth_muscle

 

Cardiac Muscles link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiac_muscle

 

Skeletal Muscle link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeletal_muscle

 

Also realize that lots of chinese might know some of what there talking about but don't have the proper words to articulate them well enough for us to really get what there saying. Just clearing up a bunch of things.

Edited January 4, 2008 by WhiteTiger

[thaddeus]

According to anatomy, there are three types of muscles in the body.

Thanks for your insights WT. How about the Psoas muscle? What kind of muscle is that? Someone told me that the psoas muscle can not contract like a muscle. This contradicts what some teachers, like mantak chia, talk about in their taoyin program to exercise this muscle. Do you have any experience on that?

T

[gendao]

For example, many people believe the bones are used primarily to transfer forces, that may not be true, they may be more like spacers in the body.

Interesting...but what do you mean by bones not primarily transferring forces, but acting like spacers?

 

Aren't vector forces in our bodies transmitted by bones? And a spacer would transfer forces, just the same, if it is in that line of force, right?

 

 

WhiteTiger - Interesting. So, both mover and stabilizer muscles would qualify as voluntary skeletal muscles?