different teachingsTaiji

[WhiteTiger]

How many people here learn Taiji?

 

Out of those guys how many people here learn Chi Gong from there Taiji teacher?

 

Now how many people actually learn to do the Chi Gong while doing there Taiji?

 

How many people are also intrigrate Nei Gong with there chi gong while doing their Tai Chi.

 

Whats your guys take on this?

 

I'll hope to post more about this in the future.

[Bum Grasshopper]

I practice Tai Chi and also Chi Kung. It is taught at the same place, but they have different instructors. Also they will have workshops with guest instructors.

[林愛偉]

I learned Qigong with my Taiji Quan cultivation from my Sifu.

 

Taiji Quan without the practice of Qigong within it is likened to a toilet paper roll without the cardboard roll...

 

The rest you can figure out

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[Buddy]

The neigong I learned is the "operating system" of my martial arts.

[VCraigP]

I learned Qigong with my Taiji Quan cultivation from my Sifu.

 

Taiji Quan without the practice of Qigong within it is likened to a toilet paper roll without the cardboard roll...

 

The rest you can figure out

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

 

Uh oh. Scatalogical reference alert....ha ha. Better watch out for the wrath of the Procurator.

 

Actually, toilet paper did exist before the roll was invented, so I think your analogy loses something there, or did you mean that since Taiji is Qigong that it really doesnt matter? OK, sorry, will be less silly now.

 

I first learned hard style martial arts. There was almost no reference to inner force, energy, Qi, etc. I later realized that when I started with MA practice that what I was really looking for was internal arts. Meanwhile my ego got caught up in the creating power the hardstyle way and feeling like I was in control and able to handle myself. Illusions, but useful ones at the time.

 

Later I began to study internal arts. The perspective of my teacher (not really a master and he wouldn't let me call him sifu) was that internal arts ARE Qigong. Bagua walking the circle was our primary Qigong practice, along with some simple standing.

 

Nowadays I study with one teacher from whom I am learning Taiji and Qigong. His perspective is also that Taiji IS Qigong. Lately I have been wondering if just doing Taiji is enough. Or to put it another way, what do I get out of other Qigong sets that I don't or can't get out of Taiji.

 

It's an ongoing dialog.

 

Two years ago I had no interest in Taiji, but since studying Qigong with this teacher who was also teaching Taiji I was brought around and now I am fully pursuing the study.

 

Craig

[doc benway]

My experience is that taijiquan forms are a qigong exercise with the body movement created by linking together martial postures. The movement (ie activity) of taijiquan (in the form) is created by using the yi to guide the qi to move the body. This along with breath coordination is nothing more or less than qigong. There is no difference to me between taiji forms and qigong.

 

That said, my shiye also teaches of qigong forms of several different types. Eight Brocades, Shi Ba Luo Han Gong, Tai Ji Qi Gong, and others for health and martial development. Some involve body movement, others only yi/qi movement (in other words, standing and sitting neigong).

 

I sort of look at taijiquan as a martial art that uses qigong principles to bring a different dimension to martial training. It is exactly the development of the yi/qi/shen connection that makes the internal styles different, IMO. There is more to taijiquan than qigong and there is more to qigong than taijiquan, but they certainly overlap quite a bit.

I learned Qigong with my Taiji Quan cultivation from my Sifu.

 

Taiji Quan without the practice of Qigong within it is likened to a toilet paper roll without the cardboard roll...

 

The rest you can figure out

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

Interesting simile Lin! I think it applies to all martial arts. The difference between internal and external styles is bascially the way qigong is applied. My shiye teaches the Shi Ba Luo Han Gong both ways - with quiet/relaxed, "taiji" type breathing/movement using the yi to guide the qi; or dynamic muscle tension/hard "external" type breathing, depending on desired results. The "internal" guys mostly do the relaxed qigong and the "external" guys do the stuff that looks more, well, external

[MASTERforge]

Qi Gong is essential to Taiji, both work together to create a calm mind and connected body to make a good martial artist.

 

Nei Gong - Internal cultivation is also essential. meditation increases focus, concentration and chi to make a good martial artist.

 

Also and most importantly it balances Taiji practice with Yang in Qi Gong and Taiji, and Yin in Meditation creating a complete learning system for spiritual cultivation and personal development.

 

Read and study widely and it will all open up for you.

[林愛偉]

 

Actually, toilet paper did exist before the roll was invented, so I think your analogy loses something there, or did you mean that since Taiji is Qigong that it really doesnt matter? OK, sorry, will be less silly now.

 

 

 

 

Ok..its an anology for modern times, not ancient ones..lol

 

(Can't believe I'm going to explain this..lol)

 

The inner roll of the toilet paper is cardboard. It keeps the paper from flattening out, and gives it its function of "rolling" when pulled on. Also it doesn't flatten, yield, extremely when no roll is in the center.

 

A more ancient analogy?

 

Taiji Quan and Qigong are of the same substance. Taiji is cultivated in Qigong, add a fist form and you have a "Taiji Quan" Taiji Quan without Qigong is just "Quan".

 

 

Maybe that one is more fitting

 

Peace and Blessings

 

Lin

[Taomeow]

Taiji IS qigong, absolutely. Toilet paper without the cardboard roll still does the job, but I've heard some orthodox Moslems despise toilet paper users because it's such an "impure" method, with or without the cardboard roll, and prefer a jar of water for washing instead. So...

taiji is toilet paper, qigong is the cardboard roll, neigoing is a jar of water.

 

My teacher has a separate qigong class, but people who take his taiji classes seldom take it -- and vice versa. I tried taking both, but discovered that I just happen to find taiji much more gratifying. Qigong is a tad too yin for my personal taste, I feel the need to keep my yang in good repair... maybe because I come from a short but sweet taekwondo background and still miss the excitement, the jump-start of all the joy-of-movement energies in me that almost took me back to childhood, feeling more mischievous than solemn, you know... So I guess it's inidvidual -- whoever needs "more yin," will do well with qigong, but if "too yin" is a problem, I'd say taiji is it to offer a great balance. And if you want "pure yang," hard arts are great for that, let's not underestimate their usefulness for certain purposes! It all depends...

 

In a taiji class, my teacher likes to start the practice with a brief qigong warm-up and finish with a brief qigong close-down. He links qigong moves to certain corresponding moves in the taiji form and explains how the latter is the development and continuation of the former. He introduces elements of neigong then and again explains the connections between the outer move and the inner movement. It's really easy to get the qigong-taiji transition whether you study one or the other or both. But that jar of water... That's something quite different. Not easy at all. When an external move "makes internal sense" to my internal senses, however, it's such a thrill! Doesn't happen every day though... not yet.

[林愛偉]

Wonderful!

[WhiteTiger]

I learned Qigong with my Taiji Quan cultivation from my Sifu.

 

Taiji Quan without the practice of Qigong within it is likened to a toilet paper roll without the cardboard roll...

 

The rest you can figure out

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

 

Sounds like you learn Chi Gong with your Tai Chi and tihs is very good.

 

This Tai Chi video is an good example of Chi Gong and the Nei Gong that this Video has in it? Its a very good example from my limited understanding but yet has all the components that I was taught real Tai Chi has in it.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6z0P2Pj6zA

(this is a great video because it is meant to be watched by beginners, but everything you see this Master doing, he teaches to beginners. By the time you learn the first duan you will have a similar replica, as long as you put in hard work)

 

The definition of Chi Gong = Energy Work. Sure Tai Chi is Energy work. But is there a specific exercise your doing while doing your Tai Chi. Do you incorperate more then just the movements of Tai Chi, the Yi or mind?

 

Nei Gong the definition exactly I'm not sure exactly, but there is no difference between Nei Gong and Internal Alchemy from what i was taught. The English word for internal alchemy also resonates in understanding with many other cultures that have practiced interal alchemy but yet differently. More then just Buddhists, Taoists, and Hindu's

 

This is where my knowledge lesses, including experiences and understanding of seeing energy work.

 

The use of Bubbling well is used in Tai Chi. How about breathing techniques gives a feeling of inflating your body while doing Tai Chi?

 

A friend of mine, who dabbles a little in Buddhism and Taoism told me that Buddha himself said to question things.

 

Actually what I'm attempting to do is open peoples eyes up by explaining by questioning peoples beliefs if you find yourself questioning or not having answers for what i bring up then you should realize that you are missing information you hopefully want to learn. As long as your practicing to let go of your ego, i'm sure you can come to understand and respect the process.

 

To me and my understanding of tai chi, Tai chi isn't tai chi without practicing Chi Gong and Nei Gong.

Edited December 25, 2007 by WhiteTiger

[Buddy]

"Taiji IS qigong, "

 

Taiji is qigong if you understand the shen fa. Otherwise it's simply choreography.

[WhiteTiger]

"Taiji IS qigong, "

 

Taiji is qigong if you understand the shen fa. Otherwise it's simply choreography.

 

I'm agreeing with you but what i'm saying is, how many people understand the difference between Qigong and taijiquan movements? If you claim Taijiquan is qigong, then can people understand that there is just more to the movements as they most likely have been learning. I think I am whipping a dead horse by now.

 

So now that we have established Taiji is qigong or you should be doing more then just movements (so people whom only do movements can truly understand what there missing in learning) Then my questions is how good would Taijiquan be without Nei Gong?

[Mal]

I think if you keep practicing Tai Chi "it" will teach you what you need as long as you are willing to listen.

 

My Sifu teaches us Qi Gong with Tai Chi because when you are learning Tai Chi you don't "know" it yet. So it won't work as a Qi Gong. I.e. too busy trying to work out the next move where to place your hands and feet etc. etc. So the Qi Gongs are there to help build your health.

 

We are told it will takes a few months practice before even our simple Qi Gongs can start to "work". I have also read it takes 3 years practice before Tai Chi will "work"

[Oolong Rabbit]

I am by no means an expert, but in the internal martial arts it's really hard to say where boundaries between chikung and the forms are drawn, if at all. In the Master Moy's style of taichi we always begin with foundational chi kung exercises. These are the basic body mechanics/breathing found throughout the set. I think the main reason we practice them individually is that it is easier to perfect these principles when broken down into their basic parts. Kind of like throwing a basketball at the net over and over again so it comes effortlessly/without thought during the game.

 

I think if you keep practicing Tai Chi "it" will teach you what you need as long as you are willing to listen.

 

Haha maybe, but a good teacher never hurts either

[doc benway]

So now that we have established Taiji is qigong or you should be doing more then just movements (so people whom only do movements can truly understand what there missing in learning) Then my questions is how good would Taijiquan be without Nei Gong?

Without nei gong, I would not call it taijiquan. The very name, tai ji quan, implies the application of nei gong to utilize the principles of tai ji (separation of wu ji into yin and yang) for combative purposes or, as was later developed, for mental, spiritual, and physical development. Without nei gong you simply have a dance.

 

I think if you keep practicing Tai Chi "it" will teach you what you need as long as you are willing to listen.

 

I'll have to agree with Oolong here - I don't think it's possible to learn taijiquan without a teacher.

You might be able to ape the movements of the form from a video, but it ain't taijiquan.

Once you've learned proper principles from a teacher and learn to self correct, THEN the form will teach a lot but it's not enough. You also need dedicated partners to train with to learn how to make it work.

I know several martial arts teachers who've tried to capitalize on the popularity of taijiquan by making up a slow form from their style and teaching it as Tai Chi. It's bullshit. Unless you understand the principles of sensitivity, neutralization, distinguishing full from empty and so on, it's not taijiquan.

Edited December 26, 2007 by xuesheng

[Mal]

Haha maybe, but a good teacher never hurts either

 

Without nei gong you simply have a dance.

I'll have to agree with Oolong here - I don't think it's possible to learn taijiquan without a teacher.

You might be able to ape the movements of the form from a video, but it ain't taijiquan.

Once you've learned proper principles from a teacher and learn to self correct, THEN the form will teach a lot but it's not enough.

 

I agree, was not really thinking about people who were still trying to learn the moves.

 

My Sifu started teaching me Tai Chi back in 2002. A 3 month course of weekly lessons. We also have weekly classes lead by one of his students (who has been learning off him for over 10 years) Sifu comes to check on us once or twice a year. And we re-do the 3 month course every year that he teaches it. He also sees us twice a week for kung fu anyhow.

 

But after 2~3 years I stoped getting much "Tai Chi instruction" from him. The last 2 years all I have been told to do is "feel the Chi move" when I practice by myself.

 

So yes you need to be under the guidance of a teacher. My Sifu still goes to get corrected once or twice a year. But practicing Tai Chi itself will teach you enough IMHO.

[WhiteTiger]

The neigong I learned is the "operating system" of my martial arts.

 

Then your system at the least be based on something great and must have some good knowledge! (its good to hear someone having such a positive envirement as this)

 

So yes you need to be under the guidance of a teacher. My Sifu still goes to get corrected once or twice a year. But practicing Tai Chi itself will teach you enough IMHO.

 

Once you already have the foundation, you've learned the beginning, and need to go on to develop what you have. *I totally agree with you*

 

I give my personal respect to, Oolong Rabbit and xuesheng for the great things they have said. Granted that should mean something not because I'm someone great, I'm nothing great at all. But that should mean something because I don't very easily give it out.

 

For the others that have read this topic in the forum I hope if you have learned something if you felt like information here lead you to realize that your missing things in your Tai Chi practice will lead you to finding more information awareness, and will grow more.

 

Mal, always nice to hear from you, I feel your a positive enforcement to the Tao Bums forums.

Edited December 28, 2007 by WhiteTiger

[Buddy]

"I think if you keep practicing Tai Chi "it" will teach you what you need as long as you are willing to listen."

 

No. it won't. It has to be specifically taught to you. Neigong should teach you shenfa. Without shenfa you're just waving your hands in the air.

[Bum Grasshopper]

In my experience, the only effect tai chi/ chi kung had on me while I was learning the movements was mild stretching and relaxation. After I had learned the movement well enough to practice everyday at my own pace is when I really started to feel the benefits. This is the value of chi kung. You can learn a movement and practice on your own, at your own pace that day! The tai chi instructor I have now discourages practice at home alone until proficient enough not to develop bad habits that may be difficult to break.

 

My original tai chi instructor did not give you any breathing instruction, rather she told us to just breathe naturally, and the correct breathing will manifest. She was right. Years later when I "discovered" Taoism and chi kung, I had found that I was naturally breathing out when pushing out or down, and breathing in when pulling in or lifting up. I think that this is what Mal was talking about when he says tai chi will teach you if you are willing to listen. I find lessons learned on your own go much deeper than lessons taught by an instructor. Aren't the best instructors the ones that guide you to self realization?

[WhiteTiger]

"I think if you keep practicing Tai Chi "it" will teach you what you need as long as you are willing to listen."

 

No. it won't. It has to be specifically taught to you. Neigong should teach you shenfa. Without shenfa you're just waving your hands in the air.

 

Buddy I think we are having miscommunication here.

 

A teacher if he or she is a good teacher, that has a significant mount of ability for what they are teaching. He or she can teach you the beginning of one thing. That one thing you should take home with you and practice to the full extent. As if you are expanding it to the fullest.

 

But without knowing the next step or the next level you can not evolve with it. Grow or get better. You can attempt can do trial and error, which is most likely taking one of the most longest roads and that i don't recommend. But if you have a teacher to teach you the next step it is as exactly as Buddy explained.

 

 

In my experience, the only effect tai chi/ chi kung had on me while I was learning the movements was mild stretching and relaxation. After I had learned the movement well enough to practice everyday at my own pace is when I really started to feel the benefits. This is the value of chi kung. You can learn a movement and practice on your own, at your own pace that day! The tai chi instructor I have now discourages practice at home alone until proficient enough not to develop bad habits that may be difficult to break.

 

My original tai chi instructor did not give you any breathing instruction, rather she told us to just breathe naturally, and the correct breathing will manifest. She was right. Years later when I "discovered" Taoism and chi kung, I had found that I was naturally breathing out when pushing out or down, and breathing in when pulling in or lifting up. I think that this is what Mal was talking about when he says tai chi will teach you if you are willing to listen. I find lessons learned on your own go much deeper than lessons taught by an instructor. Aren't the best instructors the ones that guide you to self realization?

 

I think you have no teacher to teach your tai chi, the next level once you have completed the first one. I personally don't like Tai Chi teachers claiming to be teachers or masters when they don't teach Qi Gong as a part of it AND Nei Gong as a part of it. Thats why i started this conversation. It sounds to me, and i could be wrong but you didn't learn the Chi Gong in your Tai Chi or the Nei Gong.

 

I've heard lots of stories like this, truly and honestly it saddens me.

[thaddeus]

But without knowing the next step or the next level you can not evolve with it. Grow or get better. You can attempt can do trial and error, which is most likely taking one of the most longest roads and that i don't recommend. But if you have a teacher to teach you the next step it is as exactly as Buddy explained.

I think you have no teacher to teach your tai chi, the next level once you have completed the first one. I personally don't like Tai Chi teachers claiming to be teachers or masters when they don't teach Qi Gong as a part of it AND Nei Gong as a part of it. Thats why i started this conversation. It sounds to me, and i could be wrong but you didn't learn the Chi Gong in your Tai Chi or the Nei Gong.

The neigung/chi gung is what makes the art work, as buddy said, the OS. If the teacher teaches qigong separately and there is no connection to the main art, then it's a red flag.

But I do think there is truth in the statement if you listen you will learn on your own. Teachers can only take you so far, the rest you have to pick up on your own through push hands ,fighting and experimentation. If you don't learn how to relax, then you'll always get pushed out/over and you'll never experience the signs of progress.

Look how many students there are of great teachers that just don't get it. Worst are the ones that think they have it.

One art i'm studying, the neigong is the basic movement for the whole system. It's pretty ingenious how they distilled the essence of the art into 1 neigung.

Other arts, like traditional chen style, it's not so obvious and I think due to peer pressure you're starting to see silk reeling exercise sets and zhan zhuang practices and other exercise sets coming from the chen family styles. I feel they are largely distractions. The core of the art is simple, yet complex.

Again, that's why these arts are so fascinating to study. Focusing on techniques and other externalities is truly missing out on the deepness of these systems.

T

[Bum Grasshopper]

 

But without knowing the next step or the next level you can not evolve with it. Grow or get better. You can attempt can do trial and error, which is most likely taking one of the most longest roads and that i don't recommend. But if you have a teacher to teach you the next step it is as exactly as Buddy explained.

I think you have no teacher to teach your tai chi, the next level once you have completed the first one. I personally don't like Tai Chi teachers claiming to be teachers or masters when they don't teach Qi Gong as a part of it AND Nei Gong as a part of it. Thats why i started this conversation. It sounds to me, and i could be wrong but you didn't learn the Chi Gong in your Tai Chi or the Nei Gong.

 

 

Like Oolong, I am learning Master Moy's style. We have a "beginner" an "intermediate" and an "advanced" class. Each has different instructors. I am only in the "beginner" class right now, which is 3 months of 3 days a week practice, mostly dealing with the mechanics of the movements. We start out with a few chi kung movements to warm up, then review what we learned last session followed up by doing the form from the beginning. Then we add little more.

 

I have not made it to any of the more advanced classes, but they do start with a separate chi kung class as well as Lok Hup.

[WhiteTiger]

Edited December 28, 2007 by WhiteTiger

[thaddeus]