Hello, here finding a way out of depression

[Limahong]

Hi Sub,

 

Glad to note that you are communicating and ventilating in black and white (it is a kind of breathing – yes/no?). Feeling a bit better now? Perhaps 1.8% better? Good.

 

I would like to make you smile with this conversation; and perhaps your ‘better quotient’ can improve to 1.9%. Let me try. I will do so contextually - but how?

 

I will do so by responding (tongue-in- cheek) to this conversation from Stosh -

“Committing to a religion … As serious and committed as you might be to the noble truths or the like, if ultimately you can’t really adopt certain traditional ideas I think you're out of luck unless you find another basis which still supports traditional ways”.

 

(Stosh - trust it is alright with you. My intention is to make Sub better percentage wise.)

 

Here goes:

 

Please allow me to defend myself philosophically.

 

The word “religion” is not to be found anywhere in my posting to Sub and by extension to hopefully like-minded Bummies.

 

I respect all major religions as they touch on the goodness of what it is to be human and humane.

 

I will stop here religiously. No more mention of the ‘r’ word henceforth in this posting. Anyone who wants to take me on will be wasting her/his time. I will react with wuwei.

 

I am not a Buddhist; I am just an Oriental Average Joe. But I believe in The Divine.

 

What/who is The Divine? To me The Divine = Unseen Goodness. I do not have to explain more than this to anyone, except to my children.

 

I do not believe in magic or demons. To me demons are man-made. I did not make them and I don’t know what they. Perhaps I can ask those who make demons but I am not interested because they are not real to me.

 

But I know really evil people. But I don’t want to waste my life thinking or talking about them. They don’t deserve a second of my time.

 

But I like to think/talk about angels. Why? Three of my good friends are named – Angela, Angeline and Michael-Angelo.  MA is a real scream (of delight not horror).

 

Reincarnation? Has anyone experienced it first-hand? I don’t want to ask more than this.

 

I am not culture bound (except for good food). To me all good women and men are FAMILY.

 

Too much salt is not good for my health, that’s what my doctor says. A big ‘grain of salt’ will drive my kidneys nuts.

 

I just like to introduce to Sub THE ‘Four Noble Truths’ and not ‘the like’. Since I don’t know what ‘the like’ are; so I don’t have to (dis)like them. Life is short.

 

So what are THE ‘Four Noble Truths’? To me they pertain to these: (i) life is suffering (ii) there are causes to suffering (iii) there is an end to suffering and (iv) there are paths to end suffering.

 

I don’t classify ideas as traditional or otherwise. Good ideas are timeless, borderless, endless, ceaseless, boundless … (you guess correctly – I visited Thesaurus; just came back this morning).

 

(Stosh – thank you for the contextual framework).

 

- LimA

[Sublimation]

But I know really evil people. But I don’t want to waste my life thinking or talking about them. They don’t deserve a second of my time.

 

I don't believe in good or evil. That is just a way to justify ones own moral attitudes. People are doing bad things to other people not because they are evil. They have reasons for that. Same why other people are doing good things. Good and evil are metaphysical concepts I do not believe in and that are forced upon us since childhood.

 

I agree that life is suffering. but only human life is suffering because the human itself can think about this own mortality. I don't have a problem with dying. Of course I fear the process of death and if there will be pain involved but I don't value life really much. The only problem I do have is that we have to suffer under circumstances that systems like f.i. capitalism lets us bear. Life could be a lot more. It could even be something positive instead we have to force ourself to think positive everyday to live in the illusion that there is meaning in life and all actions and events.

 

Someone once told me that there are things everyone can do good and bad. And life, by itself, is a good thing and every person is able to enjoy it. I highly doubt that. I don't think life is for everyone. For some people there is always sunshine, for the most people though life is a rollercoaster and for the minority of the human beeings on this planet life is simply hell. There is no reason to lie to oneself about that. Existence is pain. And without distractions it will always be. But culture and capitalism invented some things that make us cope everyday to live in the illusion of a meaningful life. And there are a lot of drugs in form of ideologies like religion, nationalism, esoteric, spirituality, and so on on the market.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Sublimation

[Limahong]

Hi Sub,

 

You write beautifully and with depth.

 

Noticed that from the start.

 

Keep on being beautiful thus and ...

 

It is 4am here. Time for bed.

 

- LimA

[SeekerOfHealing]

There is good and evil. Follow 5 precepts and you life will get better everyday with less and less suffering. Do otherwise and you will be on reverse.

[Stosh]

 

I don't believe in good or evil. That is just a way to justify ones own moral attitudes. People are doing bad things to other people not because they are evil. They have reasons for that. Same why other people are doing good things. Good and evil are metaphysical concepts I do not believe in and that are forced upon us since childhood.

 

I agree that life is suffering. but only human life is suffering because the human itself can think about this own mortality. I don't have a problem with dying. Of course I fear the process of death and if there will be pain involved but I don't value life really much. The only problem I do have is that we have to suffer under circumstances that systems like f.i. capitalism lets us bear. Life could be a lot more. It could even be something positive instead we have to force ourself to think positive everyday to live in the illusion that there is meaning in life and all actions and events.

 

Someone once told me that there are things everyone can do good and bad. And life, by itself, is a good thing and every person is able to enjoy it. I highly doubt that. I don't think life is for everyone. For some people there is always sunshine, for the most people though life is a rollercoaster and for the minority of the human beeings on this planet life is simply hell. There is no reason to lie to oneself about that. Existence is pain. And without distractions it will always be. But culture and capitalism invented some things that make us cope everyday to live in the illusion of a meaningful life. And there are a lot of drugs in form of ideologies like religion, nationalism, esoteric, spirituality, and so on on the market.

I hope you hang around here a while and continue to participate , one day you might notice some gaps opening up in this grim scenario , as I did. 

[Brian]

 

I don't believe in good or evil. That is just a way to justify ones own moral attitudes. People are doing bad things to other people not because they are evil. They have reasons for that. Same why other people are doing good things. Good and evil are metaphysical concepts I do not believe in and that are forced upon us since childhood.

 

I agree that life is suffering. but only human life is suffering because the human itself can think about this own mortality. I don't have a problem with dying. Of course I fear the process of death and if there will be pain involved but I don't value life really much. The only problem I do have is that we have to suffer under circumstances that systems like f.i. capitalism lets us bear. Life could be a lot more. It could even be something positive instead we have to force ourself to think positive everyday to live in the illusion that there is meaning in life and all actions and events.

 

Someone once told me that there are things everyone can do good and bad. And life, by itself, is a good thing and every person is able to enjoy it. I highly doubt that. I don't think life is for everyone. For some people there is always sunshine, for the most people though life is a rollercoaster and for the minority of the human beeings on this planet life is simply hell. There is no reason to lie to oneself about that. Existence is pain. And without distractions it will always be. But culture and capitalism invented some things that make us cope everyday to live in the illusion of a meaningful life. And there are a lot of drugs in form of ideologies like religion, nationalism, esoteric, spirituality, and so on on the market.

"...life is suffering..."

"Of course I fear the process of death..."

"...I don't value life really much"

"...we have to suffer under circumstances that systems like f.i. capitalism lets us bear."

"Life could be a lot more"

"...we have to force ourself to think positive everyday..."

"I don't think life is for everyone."

"Existence is pain."

 

Really? This is really your perspective?

 

[Marblehead]

That was depressing.

 

I'm glad there is no room for depression in me any more. 

Edited May 5, 2017 by Marblehead

[Limahong]

Hi Sub,

 

This is the weekend and I want to write something light to you - now that you are opening up.

 

I borrow Brian's posting to start the ball rolling as I can feel his thoughts in his trying to engage you.

 

I read each of his line a couple of time as a happy Sub before I tap the keyboard.

 

I am not trying to make fun of you Sub; but to be a softer 'you' on the path to a more beautiful life.

 

Here goes:

 

"...life is suffering..."

- That is the first Noble Truth. Now I know there are three other Noble Truths. There are ways to end suffering.

 

"Of course I fear the process of death..."

- Actually I am on the process of death since birth. So what’s new? Will ask someone to kick me, but not too hard.

 

“I don't value life really much"

 - Since I joined TDB, the exchange rate is different. Now I am worth more. I will take a venture on myself. Please buy my stock (i.e. follow my postings).

 

"..we have to suffer under circumstances that systems like f.i. capitalism lets us bear -"

- LimA tells me that circumstances (like situations) are ever changing, so don’t stay put. I will consider that.

 

"Life could be a lot more"

- Fun

 

"...we have to force ourselves to think positive everyday ..."

- I have just turned the corner. Please give me a little more time.

 

"I don't think life is for everyone."

- To make a mess.

 

"Existence is pain."

- No pain no gain.

 

Really? This is really your perspective?

- Reality = perception. I will be ever changing my perceptions through lifelong learning.  

 

Why the colours? They have different wavelengths and are thus of different energy levels.

 

Thank you Brian for putting your thoughts digitally to Sub and by extension to us.

 

- LimA

[Sublimation]

"...life is suffering..."

"Of course I fear the process of death..."

"...I don't value life really much"

"...we have to suffer under circumstances that systems like f.i. capitalism lets us bear."

"Life could be a lot more"

"...we have to force ourself to think positive everyday..."

"I don't think life is for everyone."

"Existence is pain."

 

Really? This is really your perspective?

 

yes, with your sad smiley I guess you have to say something about this? I don't see how the things I described are wrong. I don't even think that it is just a perspective but a fact people have to feel in their everyday lifes. How can you see something positive in the state of the world by not using distractions?

[Sublimation]

"Of course I fear the process of death..."

- Actually I am on the process of death since birth. So what’s new? Will ask someone to kick me, but not too hard.

You are right with that. Maybe I just didn't put it clear. I actually meant to process of dying. Of course getting into this world is your death sentence already but like I said I have  no problem with that. I have fear in me as a conscious beeing. I am aware of myself and that I am going to die one day, probably under pain. Animals f.i. won't ever have to feel that kind of pain because they are not aware of themselves like we as humans are. Maybe I made myself more clear now

 

“I don't value life really much"

 - Since I joined TDB, the exchange rate is different. Now I am worth more. I will take a venture on myself. Please buy my stock (i.e. follow my postings).

I don't understand what you want to tell me with that sorry
 

"..we have to suffer under circumstances that systems like f.i. capitalism lets us bear -"

- LimA tells me that circumstances (like situations) are ever changing, so don’t stay put. I will consider that.

I don't think that the core of capitalism ever changed, right? We can't be humans, we are mostly treated as what we can offer to the world. And that's our labour power, under capitalism.
 

"Life could be a lot more"

- Fun

Yeah, fun would be awesome f.i.

 

"...we have to force ourselves to think positive everyday ..."

- I have just turned the corner. Please give me a little more time.

I think I have a problem with some eastern thinking like buddhism because of this stay positive attitude. Buddhism has a big weakness and that is that people are not into critical thinking often. Like f.i. the Dalai Lama really embrace the ideology of suffering. I also think llife is suffering, but I want to fight its cause. Buddhist often embrace this and try to cope with that fact. I don't want to do that.
 

"I don't think life is for everyone."

- To make a mess.

Hm?
 

"Existence is pain."

- No pain no gain.

You are right with that. But for some people there is no gain in suffering. If I die of starvation or a lightning hitting me the only thing I get is a nice grave in best case. But even then, when I ceased to exist, there is no way to enjoy a silent grave either.
 

Really? This is really your perspective?

- Reality = perception. I will be ever changing my perceptions through lifelong learning.  

That is probably right. Perception changes but just because it changes doesn't mean it is good. A lot of people think changes are a priori a good thing.
 

Thanks for your nice colorful words. I appreciate that

[Stosh]

Did you just say you have a bone to pick with having a positive attitude in buddhism,? and that they dont instead use more critical thinking? Dude! Those guys will argue from sun up till sun down for sport!

But more importantly, Ive got a critical thinking thing for you. If you like working the grey matter.

See if I got you right first.

If your critical thinking bums you out, and yet you persist, you deem the truth you believe exists ,to be more important to acknowledge than for you to be happy but wrong.

Is that not so?

This puts anyone who is happy ,in the category called deluded. Is that not so?

and so anyone who was having fun, can only be enjoying themselves, if they are distracted momentarily from the unavoidable dismal assessment that they should be suffering from.

So far, am I getting your mindset basically correct?

Edited May 6, 2017 by Stosh

[Stosh]

I didnt say anything you didnt suggest, so Ill go to part two.

IF we undermine the idea that grimness and sadness are inescapable logical conclusions one must arrive at, are you going to fight it?

[Sublimation]

Did you just say you have a bone to pick with having a positive attitude in buddhism,? and that the dont instead use more critical thinking? Dude! Those guys will argue from sun up till sun down for sport!

 

What do you mean? They will take part of any discussion? I don't understand sorry

 

But more importantly, Ive got a critical thinking thing for you. If you like working the grey matter.

See if I got you right first.

If your critical thinking bums you out, and yet you persist, you deem the truth you believe exists ,to be more important to acknowledge than for you to be happy but wrong.

Is that not so?

This puts anyone who is happy ,in the category called deluded. Is that not so?

 

No, I don't believe in delusion. People don't get deluded from the outside. They have their own thoughts and create their own ideologies, because they can reason. It would be easy to blame any outside force for ideologies. I don't have a problem with happy people, I have a problem with the people creating this kind of reality that, in its nature, can be overcome just by changing ones thoughts about the world.

 

and so anyone who was having fun, can only be enjoying themselves, if they are distracted momentarily from the unavoidable dismal assessment that they should be suffering from.

So far, am I getting your mindset basically correct?

 

Don't get me wrong here I am for fun all the way 24/7. But the world is not built on that. You only can have fun in your privacy and spare time unless you enjoy this kind of capitallistic society that makes peoples lifes worse every day.

 

Hope I was able to explain my thoughts a little better Thanks again!

 

 

[Sublimation]

I didnt say anything you didnt suggest, so Ill go to part two.

IF we undermine the idea that grimness and sadness are inescapable logical conclusions one must arrive at, are you going to fight it?

As I said, my main idea about this world is, that people don't really get sad because of their inside, but because of outside forces. We are materialistic sentient beings and I would call myself a materialist myself in the tradition of Hegel and Marx I guess. By changing the inside (thoughts) you maybe change your attitude on certain things but you don't change the world in which we have to get by. So I only believe in real change if the world changes. If we, as a species, manage to change the circumstances in which we have to live, we also change our lives individually. I truly think, that meditation and the practice of other sort of things can have a positive impact on your as an individual, but only under certain circumstances. It doesn't change anything to for the longterm.

[Stosh]

As I said, my main idea about this world is, that people don't really get sad because of their inside, but because of outside forces. We are materialistic sentient beings and I would call myself a materialist myself in the tradition of Hegel and Marx I guess. By changing the inside (thoughts) you maybe change your attitude on certain things but you don't change the world in which we have to get by. So I only believe in real change if the world changes. If we, as a species, manage to change the circumstances in which we have to live, we also change our lives individually. I truly think, that meditation and the practice of other sort of things can have a positive impact on your as an individual, but only under certain circumstances. It doesn't change anything to for the longterm.

We can go there later, Im just asking if we undermine that , will you fight it. This should be an easy softball question , but you need to gut check.

[Sublimation]

We can go there later, Im just asking if we undermine that , will you fight it. This should be an easy softball question , but you need to gut check.

Sure I will fight

[Stosh]

They have a tradition which encourages argument, it causes one to dig deep , get to the core of what one believes, and so , they get down there where a point can have its full impact. Certainly this isnt the habit under all circumstance, .

[Stosh]

Sure I will fight

Why?

Edited May 6, 2017 by Stosh

[Stosh]

please confirm this is the true sentiment you have,

People dont get deluded from the outside, they internally arrive at an emotional stance ,and since this is an internal choice of sorts , you do not trust it ?

[Brian]

<snip>

I got more and more into Marxism because it helped me to understand the world better.

<snip>

 

Ah.

 

This ^^^ isn't "the problem" but it is a major exacerbating factor here. Marxism didn't help you understand the world better, it helped you dig a hole of despair, helplessness and victimhood from which you cannot escape. Marxism is fundamentally false; it is built on false assumptions, it misrepresents humanity (both historically and currently) and it offers a nice-sounding but morally bankrupt solution which rejects the individual in favor of the placid herd and invariably leads to misery and subjugation.

 

<sigh>

 

This isn't a political thread, though.

 

I am glad you found us here, Sublimation. I hope we can help you find your way out of the darkness. There are folks on this forum who can help you to dispel some misconceptions about various philosophies and principles and​ who can offer useful advice on everyday lifestyle choices which can help you to see things in a different light. Some will require dedication and may seem of the "fake it until you make it" variety -- things like make yourself get up every morning regardless of whether you have something you need to do, begin & maintain a physical exercise routine which exhausts you, begin & maintain a single daily energetic practice (stick with it for six months or so and then you might consider changing to a different one). You might consider filling free time with activities like volunteering at a local soup kitchen, as an example.

 

I would also recommend frequent (weekly, perhaps?) sessions with a good therapist. I'm not a mental health professional but it sounds to me like the root here is thought processes rather than chemistry -- issues and experiences you need to uncover and explore rather than a biological imbalance which needs to be corrected.

 

For what it's worth, I don't share any of those perceptions I drew out in my earlier post -- and not because I live a life of make-believe but because they are simply not part of my composition​. I do understand, however, that some people see things with very different eyes than mine and it makes me sad when people suffer. That was the origin of the sad-face emoticon.

[Sublimation]

Why?

 

Well, because I suffer und these Depression. That's why I am searching for things to escape it.

[Sublimation]

please confirm this is the true sentiment you have,

People dont get deluded from the outside, they internally arrive at an emotional stance ,and since this is an internal choice of sorts , you do not trust it ?

I don't like the word "delusion" here. People experience reality, naturally and socially. So anything that happens is tied to a thought. People build their thoughts around a lot of things. There is education, emotion, morals and a lot of other things that makes people built their thoughts. If you look on this world people that are unhappy tend to suffer from outside forces, not from inside forces. The inside just reacts to the outside. If you see a person suffer it is the outside that influences your feelings their. How you handle it and describe the reasons for that though, happens on the inside.

[Sublimation]

Ah.

 

This ^^^ isn't "the problem" but it is a major exacerbating factor here. Marxism didn't help you understand the world better, it helped you dig a hole of despair, helplessness and victimhood from which you cannot escape. Marxism is fundamentally false; it is built on false assumptions, it misrepresents humanity (both historically and currently) and it offers a nice-sounding but morally bankrupt solution which rejects the individual in favor of the placid herd and invariably leads to misery and subjugation.

 

<sigh>

I would like to hear more of an argument if you could write a littlle more about your thoughts there I would appreciate that

 

Marxism in its core favors the individual, You are thinking of the so-called communist societies in the UDSSR f.i. But that wasn't communism as it was supposed in a marxist view.

 

What do you mean of misinterpreting humanity f.i.? You are just denouncing the ideas but not explaining anything. I would be happy to read some arguments

 

 

 

 

I actually was in therapy and had problems with that because they simply try to push you back into this "find meaning in your life" thing and participating in this society. If that happens you are healed and healthy. If not you are sick and need treatment. The thing is that I don't think that depressed people are sick. They just suffer under the things other people can easier cope with.

[Stosh]

Well, because I suffer und these Depression. That's why I am searching for things to escape it.

Good answer for why you do not trust your emotions, in fact I gotta agree that emotions arent a good place to start for judging the external situation. I was however concentrating on the thing that the external world is ,, well , what it is , and the emotional value,,, or cost,, in your case, is internally attributed.

For emphasis, ill add an example,, even if you get this idea solidly, I dont want to make big jumps.

You look at a strawberry, is it good or is it bad? Well, It is a piece of fruit, looks red , moist, perhaps has sugars , perhaps you have memories of others which were nice. This info however is neutral , its not bad nor is it good , it contains no inherent sentiment or morality or value. If you however were allergic to them, you might understandably veer off and proclaim it to be Bad.

This is internally applied judgement. You said that the external world doesnt delude, you are correct, it simply is whatever it materially is, and has no virtue or vice of its own, in terms of goodness or badness.

Secondly, you understand that ones attitudes, have at least, a degree of independence , from the external objects . Person A may be happier than person B in exactly the same physical situation. Right?

So , being very explicit, you can already agree, without changing your mind at all, several things.

1, The external world is neutral

2, the internal experience is not locked into any particular sentiment about the external situation , By the external situation , but may be self inflicted internally OR, may be suceptible to the attitudes we hold ,, in such a way that we can influence ,, and so potentially may mitigate our experience of our lives and end up happier.

None of this may seem earth shattering news, but its important to see these things clearly , with complete confidence, since its reaaally basic stuff.

[Brian]

I would like to hear more of an argument if you could write a littlle more about your thoughts there I would appreciate that

 

Marxism in its core favors the individual, You are thinking of the so-called communist societies in the UDSSR f.i. But that wasn't communism as it was supposed in a marxist view.

 

What do you mean of misinterpreting humanity f.i.? You are just denouncing the ideas but not explaining anything. I would be happy to read some arguments

 

 

 

 

I actually was in therapy and had problems with that because they simply try to push you back into this "find meaning in your life" thing and participating in this society. If that happens you are healed and healthy. If not you are sick and need treatment. The thing is that I don't think that depressed people are sick. They just suffer under the things other people can easier cope with.

I recommend reading Bastiat's "The Law" as a counterpoint to Marx.

 

http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html

Edited May 6, 2017 by Brian