you are not your body

[roger]

Three quotes from A Course in Miracles are:

 

"To see yourself as attacked is to believe you are a body."

 

"True perception has one law, that you see the Son of God (which is all beings) as not a body."

 

"The advanced Teacher of God no longer believes he is a body."

 

We HAVE bodies, but the body is not your actual self.

 

You have a mind, a personality, consciousness, a divine nature......you are the life within you.

[Marblehead]

Perhaps.  But then, what would I be without a body?

 

We can't be if we aren't.

[laughingblade]

"To see yourself as attacked is to believe you are a body."

-- what if my ideas are attacked? Does that have relevance to the body?

 

"True perception has one law, that you see the Son of God (which is all beings) as not a body."

-- perception isn't open to ideas of true or false. Surely it's how sense experience presents.

-- All beings (is?) are not a body - that's not even grammatical. This Son of God stuff is... aarggh!

 

"The advanced Teacher of God no longer believes he is a body."

-- What's a teacher of God. What's God? What's the point of believing? He either is or isn't.

 

I could never get on with ACIM. Just a bunch of random statements, often not even grammatically correct, let alone conveying any useful insight or practice instruction. Pretty much no two consecutive statements build any kind of momentum. AFAIK it was written by CIA operatives and is IMO an intentional attempt to head-fuck genuine spiritual inquiry.

 

 

 

And and and... ISTM we're not a body and not not a body - "we" are an emergent systems thing. Old skool you'd have blind men and an elephant. Nu-skool you've got Systems Theory: check out "The Systems View of Life: A Unifying Vision" by Capra and Luisi.

 

And finally - there's no actual self anyway.

[Michael Sternbach]

Our body is the living expression of our self on the physical level. I agree that our existence isn't limited to the physical: We are not just our body. But it is part of us, for the time being, and we are it, too.

 

We have several bodies besides the physical one, BTW. The other ones exist on more subtle levels and encompass various aspects of our mind and soul. They are as real - or unreal - as the physical body.

 

Some say that only our innermost soul essence is real. I don't quite agree, but I would consider this a more viable position.

[Drifting_Through_Infinity]

I believe that we are the soul which resides in the heart. 

[liminal_luke]

I am not my body, never was.  But back in the day we were at least close.  She`d breathe in, and I`d breathe out. We would lie together all night in tender embrace, giggling like fools and going on about digestion and hair folicles, the journey after death into infitite light or inky darkness.

 

I`m not ashamed to admit that I miss the intimacy we shared, body and soul together on a big bed.  And there`s nothing like that first flashbang collision of matter and spirit, the moment when time and eternity smudge together, like the slow ecstatic melting of peanut butter and chocolate into unutterable candybar bliss.

 

I am not my body and someday we will say goodbye forever.  I`m sure gonna miss her.   

Edited April 30, 2017 by liminal_luke

[Aetherous]

Is it useful to have a disconnection of identity from the body? This seems to me to be one of those false paths...sounds good in theory, in practice its results are disappointing.

Edited April 30, 2017 by Aetherous

[silent thunder]

fingernails and hair... kind of give me a clue that my body is not my true essential self.

 

they are integral parts of my body and hence part of my self...

 

yet when they are cut off, I throw them away without much consideration and with no sense of loss (actually with some sense of satisfaction and relief usually)... these bits that were just a few moments prior a direct and connected part of me... but once cut off, become trash.

 

of course... the toe and fingernails I confess I do tend to keep around just a bit... while they're still pliable.

I nudgy them and squish them a bit, if they're being clipped while reading something... then set them aside in a small pile to be thrown away when they are dry hard and brittle... (I mean, who wants unpliable, nonfresh toenail clippings... ? not me!)

 

And I never go looking to reclaim my old shuffled off skin cells.  In fact I diligently scrape them off in the shower and rejoice in their loss...

 

nope, my body is not my essential self, yet it seems central to my experience of this life.

 

 

 

I get the sense that my essential nature is a field of awareness, shaped much like my avatar pic... and my body is a dense manifestation within the core of that field... my body manifests within my awareness, not the other way round.  But that's just my current sense of the situation.  I reserve the right to change my perspective on this, if my perspective changes that is...

[Fa Xin]

I resonate with those statements.

 

Fun to see acim pop up occasionally and synch with what I'm studying at the time. Although I never got into acim, I find many of the statements ring true for me.

 

I read the statements almost like a ramana maharshi "who am I?" ... "not the body".

 

Thanks for the post roger.

Edited April 30, 2017 by Fa Xin

[doc benway]

Beautiful Luke!

[wstein]

Perhaps.  But then, what would I be without a body?

 

We can't be if we aren't.

 

Most 'people' are actually souls (having a human experience).

 

One doesn't have to 'be' in 'existence' (manifest reality) to have presence as a being.

[dust]

You are your body.

 

Speaking of 'my body' as a separate entity is a mistake enabled and exacerbated by insufficient language. Your body is not 'your body', it is you; your eye is not 'your eye', it is you.

 

Your breath is not 'your breath', it is you; your food, your water, your shoes, your home, your family, your planet, are all you too.

 

How could they not be?

Edited April 30, 2017 by dust

[Marblehead]

Most 'people' are actually souls (having a human experience).

 

One doesn't have to 'be' in 'existence' (manifest reality) to have presence as a being.

 

I wanted to respond but felt it would be counter-productive so I won't.

[liminal_luke]

Is it useful to have a disconnection of identity from the body? This seems to me to be one of those false paths...sounds good in theory, in practice its results are disappointing.

 

 

You are your body.

 

Speaking of 'my body' as a separate entity is a mistake enabled and exacerbated by insufficient language. Your body is not 'your body', it is you; your eye is not 'your eye', it is you.

 

 

Many people are alienated from their bodies, disconnected in a way that divides them from themselves, disconnected in a way that brings unconsciousness and, eventually, disease.  Almost almost of us could benefit from greater bodily awareness.  In the beginning, I think this awareness deepens our identification with our body: we go into, rather than pull away from, the parts of us that feel uncomfortable or that store, for lack of a better word, the imprints of emotional trauma.

 

Nevertheless, this is not the end of the story.  When we stop resisting the body, something frees up within us --- an awareness of "something more."  We might then come to understand that that "something more" is in some sense more truly who we are.  We know the body as a temple where we come to worship, a place to be lovingly cared for, and we know ourselves as the worshippers who temporarily reside within.  Awareness skips playfully anywhere along the scale from dense materiality to spirit`s most ephemeral dew.  We feel no need to recoil from the body, and also no need to restrict ourselves senselessly to it`s changing physical form.

 

When we stop resisting matter, matter stops resisting us.

 

Or at least this is what I think.  

Edited April 30, 2017 by liminal_luke

[thelerner]

My thinking is sometimes its good to disassociate from your body. 

 

For example, often before meditation I'll run through an "I'm not" series.

I'm not my thoughts, they are as clouds drifting through the sky

I am not my body, it is what I inhabit.

I'm not my emotion, I acknowledge them and let them settle like waves on a pond.

I'm not my.. future.., past.., possessions.., etc.,  i am breath and awareness

 

I'm way to much a sensualist to want to stay in that state permanently, but during meditation, and a few other times, it's not a bad place, or tool to have.  There is an Oasis feeling to it. 

[silent thunder]

You are your body.

 

Speaking of 'my body' as a separate entity is a mistake enabled and exacerbated by insufficient language. Your body is not 'your body', it is you; your eye is not 'your eye', it is you.

 

Your breath is not 'your breath', it is you; your food, your water, your shoes, your home, your family, your planet, are all you too.

 

How could they not be?

I agree... I am my body, how could it be otherwise...

 

but my body is not all that I am.

 

that's the only distinction to this I will add.

[Prasanna]

Roger, You are absolutely right. In fact you have said the same important aspect of life what I studied for three years and still working on in the name of Vedanta Philosophy. The difference between worldly people and spiritual people is their identification. All worldly people from the worst of sinners to the best of seekers will consciously or unconsciously believe wrongly that they are this material limitations of Body, Mind, Intellect and Ego. The spiritual people put efforts and work their way to dissociate their wrong identification with the material aspects of Body, Mind, Intellect and Ego and merge one with the Supreme self or God within the subtlest core of their personality. This identification with the Supreme Self, the Divine, the WHOLE, the entirety without the second is what makes the spiritual aspirants different from the worldly people. Know Thy (Supreme) SELF. "Thou Art God" is the glorious and gracious claim of the Scriptures, whether it be Abrahamic or Vedic.

[Brian]

I agree... I am my body, how could it be otherwise...

 

but my body is not all that I am.

 

that's the only distinction to this I will add.

Yes.

 

I am not my body, my body is me.

 

A cat is not a tiger, a tiger is a cat.

[dust]

Nevertheless, this is not the end of the story.  When we stop resisting the body, something frees up within us --- an awareness of "something more."  We might then come to understand that that "something more" is in some sense more truly who we are.  We know the body as a temple where we come to worship, a place to be lovingly cared for, and we know ourselves as the worshippers who temporarily reside within.  Awareness skips playfully anywhere along the scale from dense materiality to spirit`s most ephemeral dew.  We feel no need to recoil from the body, and also no need to restrict ourselves senselessly to it`s changing physical form.

 

I agree... I am my body, how could it be otherwise...

 

but my body is not all that I am.

 

that's the only distinction to this I will add.

 

 

This "something more" or "not all that I am"... if we're talking in terms of 'the whole is greater than the sum of its parts', or saying that the greater something is the ineffable / Dao / universe, something that we all share (or feel that we do), then I agree. There is something more, my human body is not all that I am. And if someone wants to use the word 'spirit'.. I don't get it, but OK. But I do believe that a literal belief in a spirit, or a soul, that is distinct from the body, can be dangerous, both psychologically to the individual and outwardly to others.

 

As I see it, the body is the centre. Each individual is essentially the universe having a unique subjective experience, and each experience is the centre of its own universe. We don't each have the ability to wield the omnipotent power of the universe, but we are each responsible for our behaviour, for how we respond to the experiences we have (with the information available to us). And in our daily lives, it's important to remember that we are individual experience®s, who may affect each other in many different ways, mentally and physically, but always through our physical form. He cannot read my mind, she cannot speak to ghosts, you cannot attack me with your vampire soul. There is space between us.

[dust]

Yes.

 

I am not my body, my body is me.

 

A cat is not a tiger, a tiger is a cat.

 

Hm.. I see a false equivalence..?

 

My body is always me; I am always my body.

 

Not all cats are tigers, but all tigers are cats.

[liminal_luke]

 And in our daily lives, it's important to remember that we are individual experience®s, who may affect each other in many different ways, mentally and physically, but always through our physical form. He cannot read my mind, she cannot speak to ghosts, you cannot attack me with your vampire soul. There is space between us.

 

This hasn`t been my experience.  I won`t name names, but I happen to believe there is more than one mind reader active here on Taobums, and ghost whisperers are more commonplace than you might think.  Vampire soul attacks are above my pay grade but I wouldn`t be surprised.

[Brian]

Hm.. I see a false equivalence..?

 

My body is always me; I am always my body.

 

Not all cats are tigers, but all tigers are cats.

You imagine a false equivalence but that's your prerogative.

[Drifting_Through_Infinity]

For those of you who mistakenly think they are their body, listen to my train of logic.

 

Every two years, your body is gradually replaced by the food you eat. So what you once called as "you" is constantly being flushed down the toilet. 

Therefore, the logical conclusion is to say that we are our DNA that has conducted this operation of creating your body. However, we are also influenced by our surroundings. So are we are DNA and our surroundings? 

The problem with this conclusion is that modern science has come to to the conclusion that our DNA changes. So what is it that changes our DNA?

Anyone who is not an idiot has noticed that their appearance changes every day. How can this be if the operation of creating our body is only mechanical?

If you get your leg amputated, you will still be the same person. If you are stupid enough to disagree with that, I cannot help you.

It hurts me to put out these arguments, because I do not understand how you could deny the obvious, WHO IS LOOKING? CLOSE YOUR FUCKING EYES AND STOP TALKING TO YOURSELF IN YOUR HEAD AND EXAMINE YOUR EXPERIENCE. WHO IS THE EXPERIENCER?

[silent thunder]

This "something more" or "not all that I am"... if we're talking in terms of 'the whole is greater than the sum of its parts', or saying that the greater something is the ineffable / Dao / universe, something that we all share (or feel that we do), then I agree. There is something more, my human body is not all that I am. And if someone wants to use the word 'spirit'.. I don't get it, but OK. But I do believe that a literal belief in a spirit, or a soul, that is distinct from the body, can be dangerous, both psychologically to the individual and outwardly to others.

 

As I see it, the body is the centre. Each individual is essentially the universe having a unique subjective experience, and each experience is the centre of its own universe. We don't each have the ability to wield the omnipotent power of the universe, but we are each responsible for our behaviour, for how we respond to the experiences we have (with the information available to us). And in our daily lives, it's important to remember that we are individual experience®s, who may affect each other in many different ways, mentally and physically, but always through our physical form. He cannot read my mind, she cannot speak to ghosts, you cannot attack me with your vampire soul. There is space between us.

Well worded, thanks for sharing.   and wow did your last phrase ring the bell of old recognition for me... 

 

the space between...  the space between...

this mantra was central to my process for quite some years

so much benefit I derived from saturating in this very concept

 

for years my path was creating and occupying space between

 

the space between thoughts

the space between me and other

the space between concept and form

the space between solid surety and awareness of constatnt flow

the space between the concept and sense of individuality and the absolutely complete intertwined experience and cross=saturated nature of all

 

the fluid nature of even the most solid seeming objects...

the ship of theseus...

 

One of the first verses of the Tao that really had gravity for me, was verse 11. 

 

We form spokes into a wheel,

yet the empty space in the center

is the source for the wagon's motion.

 

We shape clay into a pot.

But it is the emptiness inside

that allows us to make use of it.

 

We form wood into a house.

But the space inside is where we live.

 

Form provides a framework

for the uses of emptiness.

 

 

That verse resonated with such intense gravity for me, that it sparked the subsequent curiosity to explore Taoism further and not be run off by its inherent contradictions and anti-logical truths.

 

It's always been a pivotal point for me, the interplay of form and emptiness, walking the path between, that spiral path of the line running through the yin and yang.  I think the mysterious nature of the flow and constant, fluid interplay is what is so alluring about it and also, frustratingly ungraspable and un-tie-downable in left brain manners...  yet the pursuit is always pleasant, so long as everyone remains well intentioned and open hearted.

 

I had an intense experience of sammadhi while sitting and sketching in the courtyard of the Getty one afternoon. 

 

Full expansion of awareness out beyond the limits of the complex onto the hillside of the hill surrounding the entire Getty complex.  I had been sketching the courtyard and was intently focused on the shape of the negative spaces created inbetween the various buildings and then in a moment, my awareness shifted from seeing the forms, to experiencing vividly the space between the forms

 

and then awareness shifted again and my body became the emptiness... and I experienced the space between forms as if it were my body.

 

I tried to put this experience into words some years ago and then left it... I'll go dig it up and perhaps share it now.  I do recall though, one of the most vivid points was the exquisitely intimate knowledge of the shape of the space inside of the keyholes of the doors that led into the buildings... I could just feel it, it was me...  

 

also... space between reminds me of this song... one my wife and I often share

one of my favorites...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvzWRzTh7jg

edit: to clarify an idea

Edited April 30, 2017 by silent thunder

[liminal_luke]

 There is space between us.

 

Dust,

 

I quoted  you earlier to say that I believe in mind readers and such, but ST`s post reminded me what a powerful concept this last phrase is.  My old Tai Chi teacher/ acupuncturist had this quote by Rilke on his desk.

 

“The point of marriage is not to create a quick commonality by tearing down all boundaries; on the contrary, a good marriage is one in which each partner appoints the other to be the guardian of his solitude, and thus they show each other the greatest possible trust. A merging of two people is an impossibility, and where it seems to exist, it is a hemming-in, a mutual consent that robs one party or both parties of their fullest freedom and development. But once the realization is accepted that even between the closest people infinite distances exist, a marvelous living side-by-side can grow up for them, if they succeed in loving the expanse between them, which gives them the possibility of always seeing each other as a whole and before an immense sky.”

Rainer Maria Rilke