you are not your body

[dust]

You imagine a false equivalence but that's your prerogative.

 

Some are suggesting that the self inhabits the body; nobody is suggesting that the idea of tiger 'inhabits' the idea of cat or vice versa. The comparison of self/body with tiger/cat is not directly equivalent. And ignoring the idea of 'false equivalence'... I just don't see how your comparison works. But indeed it is your prerogative to believe that it does.

 

 

The "my body" makes it abundantly clear. The body is mine, but I am not my body. Just as the jeans and shirt I wear are mine, but they are not me...they belong to me.

 

As I said previously, this is the result of insufficient language. You call it "my body" even though it is you. The language perpetuates a cognitive disconnection. But without "your body" you would not be anything.

[windwalker]

As an Infantry Army medic, I had a soldier.

Who had a problem, he could not feel  "his"  right foot.

I asked him to  remove his boot and look away.

Stabbed his foot with a big needle.

 

Suddenly, he found his foot.

 

I asked if the other foot had the same problem 

we could check it,,,,he said no problem and left...

Edited May 3, 2017 by windwalker

[Marblehead]

Isn't reality great?!?

[dust]

It's always been a pivotal point for me, the interplay of form and emptiness, walking the path between, that spiral path of the line running through the yin and yang.  I think the mysterious nature of the flow and constant, fluid interplay is what is so alluring about it and also, frustratingly ungraspable and un-tie-downable in left brain manners...  yet the pursuit is always pleasant, so long as everyone remains well intentioned and open hearted.

 

I had an intense experience of sammadhi while sitting and sketching in the courtyard of the Getty one afternoon. 

 

Full expansion of awareness out beyond the limits of the complex onto the hillside of the hill surrounding the entire Getty complex.  I had been sketching the courtyard and was intently focused on the shape of the negative spaces created inbetween the various buildings and then in a moment, my awareness shifted from seeing the forms, to experiencing vividly the space between the forms

 

and then awareness shifted again and my body became the emptiness... and I experienced the space between forms as if it were my body.

 

Thanks for that post. Yes, the first time I read and grasped chapter 11 was... a moment. One of those moments of childlike realization, after which I smack myself on the head and say "Of course!"

 

And at risk of going completely off-topic... yes, being artistic and spending time looking at scenes/life has opened up a world of observation. Seeing the wider scene/"big picture", using negative space, grasping the relationships between light, colour, form, distance, absence... and generally paying more attention to what's around me. As far as spiritual training goes, art is right up there I think.

[Brian]

Quote sandokhan:Few people, physicists, researchers know that the GPS satellites do not record the orbital Sagnac effect, which would have to be registered if the Earth were really orbiting the Sun.

 

Hi sandokhan,

 

Are you suggesting that the earth does not orbit the sun?

Systems such as GPS specifically have to correct for Sagnac effect. Edited May 3, 2017 by Brian

[sandokhan]

Certainly, for the ROTATIONAL Sagnac effect.

 

http://qem.ee.nthu.edu.tw/f1b.pdf

This is an IOP article.

The author recognizes the earth's orbital Sagnac is missing whereas the earth's rotational Sagnac is not.

He uses GPS and a link between Japan and the US to prove this.

In GPS the actual magnitude of the Sagnac correction
due to earth’s rotation depends on the positions of
satellites and receiver and a typical value is 30 m, as the
propagation time is about 0.1s and the linear speed due
to earth’s rotation is about 464 m/s at the equator. The
GPS provides an accuracy of about 10 m or better in positioning.
Thus the precision of GPS will be degraded significantly,
if the Sagnac correction due to earth’s rotation
is not taken into account. On the other hand, the orbital
motion of the earth around the sun has a linear speed of
about 30 km/s which is about 100 times that of earth’s
rotation. Thus the present high-precision GPS would be
entirely impossible if the omitted correction due to orbital
motion is really necessary.


In an intercontinental microwave link between Japan and
the USA via a geostationary satellite as relay, the influence
of earth’s rotation is also demonstrated in a high-precision
time comparison between the atomic clocks at two remote
ground stations.
In this transpacific-link experiment, a synchronization
error of as large as about 0.3 µs was observed unexpectedly.


Meanwhile, as in GPS, no effects of earth’s orbital motion
are reported in these links, although they would be
easier to observe if they are in existence. Thereby, it is evident
that the wave propagation in GPS or the intercontinental
microwave link depends on the earth’s rotation, but
is entirely independent of earth’s orbital motion around
the sun or whatever. As a consequence, the propagation
mechanism in GPS or intercontinental link can be viewed
as classical in conjunction with an ECI frame, rather than
the ECEF or any other frame, being selected as the unique
propagation frame. In other words, the wave in GPS or the
intercontinental microwave link can be viewed as propagating
via a classical medium stationary in a geocentric
inertial frame.

 

 

Ring laser gyroscopes and the Sagnac effect:

 

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1846888#msg1846888

 

The rotation of the telluric currents/ether strings/wind/drift above the surface of the flat Earth affects the light signal: the difference in time is the Sagnac effect.

 

 

Ether = subquark strings = chi/qi

 

 

 

If you have any further questions, any regarding my messages, please feel free to ask

 

[Marblehead]

Systems such as GPS specifically have to correct for Sagnac effect.

 

And all your particles and waves are flat.

[cold]

Hard to surf a flat wave. And boring too!

[Brian]

Certainly, for the ROTATIONAL Sagnac effect.

 

http://qem.ee.nthu.edu.tw/f1b.pdf

 

This is an IOP article.

 

The author recognizes the earth's orbital Sagnac is missing whereas the earth's rotational Sagnac is not.

 

He uses GPS and a link between Japan and the US to prove this.

 

In GPS the actual magnitude of the Sagnac correction

due to earth’s rotation depends on the positions of

satellites and receiver and a typical value is 30 m, as the

propagation time is about 0.1s and the linear speed due

to earth’s rotation is about 464 m/s at the equator. The

GPS provides an accuracy of about 10 m or better in positioning.

Thus the precision of GPS will be degraded significantly,

if the Sagnac correction due to earth’s rotation

is not taken into account. On the other hand, the orbital

motion of the earth around the sun has a linear speed of

about 30 km/s which is about 100 times that of earth’s

rotation. Thus the present high-precision GPS would be

entirely impossible if the omitted correction due to orbital

motion is really necessary.

 

 

In an intercontinental microwave link between Japan and

the USA via a geostationary satellite as relay, the influence

of earth’s rotation is also demonstrated in a high-precision

time comparison between the atomic clocks at two remote

ground stations.

In this transpacific-link experiment, a synchronization

error of as large as about 0.3 µs was observed unexpectedly.

 

 

Meanwhile, as in GPS, no effects of earth’s orbital motion

are reported in these links, although they would be

easier to observe if they are in existence. Thereby, it is evident

that the wave propagation in GPS or the intercontinental

microwave link depends on the earth’s rotation, but

is entirely independent of earth’s orbital motion around

the sun or whatever. As a consequence, the propagation

mechanism in GPS or intercontinental link can be viewed

as classical in conjunction with an ECI frame, rather than

the ECEF or any other frame, being selected as the unique

propagation frame. In other words, the wave in GPS or the

intercontinental microwave link can be viewed as propagating

via a classical medium stationary in a geocentric

inertial frame.

 

 

Ring laser gyroscopes and the Sagnac effect:

 

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1846888#msg1846888

 

The rotation of the telluric currents/ether strings/wind/drift above the surface of the flat Earth affects the light signal: the difference in time is the Sagnac effect.

 

 

Ether = subquark strings = chi/qi

 

 

 

If you have any further questions, any regarding my messages, please feel free to ask

You might want to re-read that first paper. It specifically says that the expected Sagnac effect due to the Earth's orbit around the Sun is an order of magnitude too small to be detectable with current measurement precision.

[silent thunder]

Thanks for that post. Yes, the first time I read and grasped chapter 11 was... a moment. One of those moments of childlike realization, after which I smack myself on the head and say "Of course!"

 

And at risk of going completely off-topic... yes, being artistic and spending time looking at scenes/life has opened up a world of observation. Seeing the wider scene/"big picture", using negative space, grasping the relationships between light, colour, form, distance, absence... and generally paying more attention to what's around me. As far as spiritual training goes, art is right up there I think.

what still resonates in memory of the event is the palpable awareness and sensation of just how alive space is... not just that it was my body, space is as sentient as form, maybe even more so...

 

three tenets that keep tickling me after some decades of dancing with the ungraspable dao...

 

there is thunder in silence (my experiece of this seemed like it would shake apart my body)

darkness is full of light (even when it seems I can't perceive it_)

space is not empty

[cold]

Thunder rocks and rolls!

[sandokhan]

You might want to re-read that first paper. It specifically says that the expected Sagnac effect due to the Earth's orbit around the Sun is an order of magnitude too small to be detectable with current measurement precision.

 

The author mentions that the orbital Sagnac is much larger than the rotational Sagnac effect, but it is not being registered.

 

As such, he is presenting a local-ether model which the IOP thought enough of to publish it.

 

Here is how to correctly calculate the orbital Sagnac effect:

 

http://www.anti-relativity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=39644&sid=380ab2ccf12f0e84dc604ec3feeed59e#p39644

 

http://anti-relativity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=34935#p34935

 

It is much larger than the rotational Sagnac, as it should be: the velocity is much larger as is the area required by the formula itself.

 

 

But it is not being recorded/registered.

 

Now, in order to remove all of your doubts regarding the correctness of my assertions here is the M. Ruderfer experiment (1960-1961), the first NULL result in the history of ether theory.

 

 

Ruderfer, Martin (1960) “First-Order Ether Drift
Experiment Using the Mössbauer Radiation,”
Physical Review Letters, Vol. 5, No. 3, Sept. 1, pp
191-192

Ruderfer, Martin (1961) “Errata—First-Order Ether
Drift Experiment Using the Mössbauer Radiation,”
Physical Review Letters, Vol. 7, No. 9, Nov. 1, p 361


In 1961, M. Ruderfer proved mathematically and experimentally, using the spinning Mossbauer effect, the FIRST NULL RESULT in ether drift theory.

 

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1846721#msg1846721

 

Analysis of the spinning Mossbauer experiments is a natural step toward analysis of the slightly more complex and much larger-scale Global Positioning System (GPS). This system constitutes a large scale near-equivalent to the spinning Mossbauer experiments.
The transit time between the satellite and ground-based receivers is routinely measured.
In addition, the atomic clocks on the satellite are carefully monitored; and high precision corrections are provided as part of the information transmitted from the satellites.
Because the satellites and the receivers rotate at different rates (unlike the Mossbauer experiments), a correction for the motion of the receiver during the transit time is required. This correction is generally referred to as a Sagnac correction, since it adjusts for anisotropy of the speed of light as far as the receiver is concerned. 

 

Why is there no requirement for a Sagnac correction due to the earth’s orbital motion? Like the transit time in the spinning Mossbauer experiments, any such effect would be completely canceled by the orbital-velocity effect on the satellite clocks.


Specifically, there is substantial independent experimental evidence that clock speed always affects the clock frequency and, as the GPS system shows, the spin velocity of the earth clearly affects the clock rate. This being the case, the null result of the rotating Mössbauer experiments actually implies that an ether drift must exist or else the clock effect would not be canceled and a null result would not be present.

A GPS satellite orbiting the Earth, while at the same time the entire system is orbiting the Sun, IS A LARGE SCALE SPINNING MOSSBAUER EXPERIMENT.


Given the very fact that these GPS satellites DO NOT record the orbital Sagnac effect, means that THE HYPOTHESES OF THE RUDERFER EXPERIMENT ARE FULFILLED.

Why is there no requirement for a Sagnac correction due to the earth’s orbital motion? Like the transit time in the spinning Mossbauer experiments, any such effect would be completely canceled by the orbital-velocity effect on the satellite clocks.

However, indirectly, the counteracting effects of the transit time and clock slowing induced biases indicate that an ether drift is present. This is because there is independent evidence that clocks are slowed as a result of their speed. Thus, ether drift must exist or else the clock slowing effect would be observed. 

In fact, there is other evidence that the wave-front bending and absence of the Sagnac effect in the earth-centered frame is due to the clock-biasing effects of velocity and that an ether drift velocity actually exists in the earth-centered frame. First, the gradient of the solar gravitational effects upon clocks on the surface of the earth is such that the clocks will speed up and slow down in precisely the correct way to retain the appropriate up-wind and down-wind clock biases. Thus, the clocks must be biased or else the solar gravitational effects would become apparent.

 

 

 

As if this wasn't enough, the Sun's gravitational potential is not being recorded either by the clocks of the GPS satellites.

 

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1846706#msg1846706

 

Such an oscillation exceeds
the resolution of the measurements by more than two
orders of magnitude and, if present, would be very easily
observed. Nevertheless, contradicting the predictions of
GR, no sign of such oscillation is observed. This is the 
well known and so long unsolved non-midnight problem.
In fact observations show that the rate of the
atomic clocks on Earth and in the 24 GPS satellites is
ruled by only and exclusively the Earth’s gravitational
field and that effects of the solar gravitational potential
are completely absent.

 

On the other hand, the time dilation effect of the solar
gravitational field on the atomic clocks orbiting with
Earth round the Sun, which is predicted by GR but not
observed, is a highly precise observation. It exceeds by
orders of magnitude the experimental precision and
hence is infinitely more reliable. If the orbital motion of
Earth round the Sun suppresses the time dilation due to
the solar gravitational field and moreover does not show
the predicted relativistic time dilation due to this orbital
motion, then it seems reasonable that a clock in a satellite
orbiting round the Earth in a direct equatorial orbit or in a
jet flying round the Earth too should give no evidence of
such a relativistic time dilation. The relativistic time dilation
alleged in both these round the world Sagnac experiments
is in clear and frontal contradiction with the 
absence of such a relativistic time dilation effect in the
case of the orbiting Earth round the Sun.

 

 

The missing orbital Sagnac effect coupled with the missing solar gravitational potential effect, and the Ruderfer experiment, prove clearly that the Earth does not orbit the Sun at all.

Edited May 3, 2017 by sandokhan

[Brian]

You might want to re-read that first paper. It specifically says that the expected Sagnac effect due to the Earth's orbit around the Sun is an order of magnitude too small to be detectable with current measurement precision.

 

The author mentions that the orbital Sagnac is much larger than the rotational Sagnac effect, but it is not being registered.

 

As such, he is presenting a local-ether model which the IOP thought enough of to publish it.

 

Here is how to correctly calculate the orbital Sagnac effect:

 

http://www.anti-relativity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=39644&sid=380ab2ccf12f0e84dc604ec3feeed59e#p39644

 

http://anti-relativity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=34935#p34935

 

It is much larger than the rotational Sagnac, as it should be: the velocity is much larger as is the area required by the formula itself.

 

 

But it is not being recorded/registered.

 

Now, in order to remove all of your doubts regarding the correctness of my assertions here is the M. Ruderfer experiment (1960-1961), the first NULL result in the history of ether theory.

 

 

Ruderfer, Martin (1960) “First-Order Ether Drift

Experiment Using the Mössbauer Radiation,”

Physical Review Letters, Vol. 5, No. 3, Sept. 1, pp

191-192

 

Ruderfer, Martin (1961) “Errata—First-Order Ether

Drift Experiment Using the Mössbauer Radiation,”

Physical Review Letters, Vol. 7, No. 9, Nov. 1, p 361

 

 

In 1961, M. Ruderfer proved mathematically and experimentally, using the spinning Mossbauer effect, the FIRST NULL RESULT in ether drift theory.

 

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1846721#msg1846721

 

Analysis of the spinning Mossbauer experiments is a natural step toward analysis of the slightly more complex and much larger-scale Global Positioning System (GPS). This system constitutes a large scale near-equivalent to the spinning Mossbauer experiments.

The transit time between the satellite and ground-based receivers is routinely measured.

In addition, the atomic clocks on the satellite are carefully monitored; and high precision corrections are provided as part of the information transmitted from the satellites.

Because the satellites and the receivers rotate at different rates (unlike the Mossbauer experiments), a correction for the motion of the receiver during the transit time is required. This correction is generally referred to as a Sagnac correction, since it adjusts for anisotropy of the speed of light as far as the receiver is concerned.

 

Why is there no requirement for a Sagnac correction due to the earth’s orbital motion? Like the transit time in the spinning Mossbauer experiments, any such effect would be completely canceled by the orbital-velocity effect on the satellite clocks.

 

 

Specifically, there is substantial independent experimental evidence that clock speed always affects the clock frequency and, as the GPS system shows, the spin velocity of the earth clearly affects the clock rate. This being the case, the null result of the rotating Mössbauer experiments actually implies that an ether drift must exist or else the clock effect would not be canceled and a null result would not be present.

 

A GPS satellite orbiting the Earth, while at the same time the entire system is orbiting the Sun, IS A LARGE SCALE SPINNING MOSSBAUER EXPERIMENT.

 

 

Given the very fact that these GPS satellites DO NOT record the orbital Sagnac effect, means that THE HYPOTHESES OF THE RUDERFER EXPERIMENT ARE FULFILLED.

 

Why is there no requirement for a Sagnac correction due to the earth’s orbital motion? Like the transit time in the spinning Mossbauer experiments, any such effect would be completely canceled by the orbital-velocity effect on the satellite clocks.

 

However, indirectly, the counteracting effects of the transit time and clock slowing induced biases indicate that an ether drift is present. This is because there is independent evidence that clocks are slowed as a result of their speed. Thus, ether drift must exist or else the clock slowing effect would be observed.

 

In fact, there is other evidence that the wave-front bending and absence of the Sagnac effect in the earth-centered frame is due to the clock-biasing effects of velocity and that an ether drift velocity actually exists in the earth-centered frame. First, the gradient of the solar gravitational effects upon clocks on the surface of the earth is such that the clocks will speed up and slow down in precisely the correct way to retain the appropriate up-wind and down-wind clock biases. Thus, the clocks must be biased or else the solar gravitational effects would become apparent.

 

 

 

As if this wasn't enough, the Sun's gravitational potential is not being recorded either by the clocks of the GPS satellites.

 

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1846706#msg1846706

 

Such an oscillation exceeds

the resolution of the measurements by more than two

orders of magnitude and, if present, would be very easily

observed. Nevertheless, contradicting the predictions of

GR, no sign of such oscillation is observed. This is the

well known and so long unsolved non-midnight problem.

In fact observations show that the rate of the

atomic clocks on Earth and in the 24 GPS satellites is

ruled by only and exclusively the Earth’s gravitational

field and that effects of the solar gravitational potential

are completely absent.

 

On the other hand, the time dilation effect of the solar

gravitational field on the atomic clocks orbiting with

Earth round the Sun, which is predicted by GR but not

observed, is a highly precise observation. It exceeds by

orders of magnitude the experimental precision and

hence is infinitely more reliable. If the orbital motion of

Earth round the Sun suppresses the time dilation due to

the solar gravitational field and moreover does not show

the predicted relativistic time dilation due to this orbital

motion, then it seems reasonable that a clock in a satellite

orbiting round the Earth in a direct equatorial orbit or in a

jet flying round the Earth too should give no evidence of

such a relativistic time dilation. The relativistic time dilation

alleged in both these round the world Sagnac experiments

is in clear and frontal contradiction with the

absence of such a relativistic time dilation effect in the

case of the orbiting Earth round the Sun.

 

 

The missing orbital Sagnac effect coupled with the missing solar gravitational potential effect, and the Ruderfer experiment, prove clearly that the Earth does not orbit the Sun at all.

My bad! Maybe I am the one who should have re-read that first paper.

[Brian]

Let me try that again.

 

On second thought, skip it. Life is too short to debate this one.

 

For those interested, try this: http://www.mathpages.com/home/kmath169/kmath169.htm

Edited May 3, 2017 by Brian

[liminal_luke]

The road goes ever on and on.... down from the door where it began...

 

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I --

[Marblehead]

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I --

 

Were you walking two roads at the same time?

[liminal_luke]

Were you walking two roads at the same time?

 

No, actually I was lying in bed thinking of Robert Frost. (His poem, here: https://www.poetryfoundation.org/resources/learning/core-poems/detail/44272) 

 

Your post reminded me of a Taoist teacher I took some workshops from years ago who claimed that he was sometimes "two places at once."  I´m a big believer in impossible sounding things, so I didn´t even blink when he started to go on about "bilocation."  Who knows what possibilities open up when we really get, on a cellular level, that who we are is not limited to our physical bodies? 

 

It´s one thing to talk about whether or not we are only our bodies; quite another to have experiences that expand our notions of who we think we are.  I´d like to discover for myself whether or not bilocation is possible.  As fun as it is to debate, at some point ya gotta sit down and breathe.  Or at least I do.

 

In the meantime though, I offer this link about the quantum possibilities of being in two places at once: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/einstein-was-right-you-can-be-in-two-places-at-once-2162648.html

Edited May 4, 2017 by liminal_luke

[sandokhan]

Life is too short to debate this one.

 

I agree: this is not the place to debate the Sagnac effect.

 

However, understanding the Sagnac effect can reveal all of the mysteries that everyone here has been seeking to decipher.

 

Now, the mathpages you posted here contains several errors.

 

1. http://anti-relativity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=34999#p34999

 

2. The Sagnac effect is far larger than the effect forecast by relativity theory.

STR has no possible function in explaining the Sagnac effect.

The Sagnac effect is a non-relativistic effect.

COMPARISON OF THE SAGNAC EFFECT WITH SPECIAL RELATIVITY, starts on page 7, calculations/formulas on page 8

http://www.naturalphilosophy.org/pdf/ebooks/Kelly-TimeandtheSpeedofLight.pdf

page 8

Because many investigators claim that the
Sagnac effect is made explicable by using the
Theory of Special Relativity, a comparison of
that theory with the actual test results is given
below. It will be shown that the effects
calculated under these two theories are of very
different orders of magnitude, and that
therefore the Special Theory is of no value in
trying to explain the effect. 


Thus the Sagnac effect is far larger than any
purely Relativistic effect. For example,
considering the data in the Pogany test (8 ),
where the rim of the disc was moving with a
velocity of 25 m/s, the ratio dtS/dtR is about
1.5 x 10^7. Any attempt to explain the Sagnac
as a Relativistic effect is thus useless, as it is
smaller by a factor of 10^7. 


Referring back to equation (I), consider a disc
of radius one kilometre. In this case a fringe
shift of one fringe is achieved with a velocity
at the perimeter of the disc of 0.013m/s. This
is an extremely low velocity, being less than
lm per minute. In this case the Sagnac effect
would be 50 billion times larger than the
calculated effect under the Relativity Theory.


Post (1967) shows that the two (Sagnac and STR) are of very different orders of magnitude. He says that the dilation factor to be applied under SR is “indistinguishable with presently available equipment” and “is still one order smaller than the Doppler correction, which occurs when observing fringe shifts” in the Sagnac tests. He also points out that the Doppler effect “is v/c times smaller than the effect one wants to observe." Here Post states that the effect forecast by SR, for the time dilation aboard a moving object, is far smaller than the effect to be observed in a Sagnac test.

 

 

Each and every possible aspect of the Sagnac effect, discussed here in an easy and accessible manner:

 

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1846045#msg1846045 (part I)

 

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1846888#msg1846888 (parts II-VII, six consecutive messages)

 

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1886058#msg1886058 (parts VIII-IX, two consecutive messages)

 

 

 

[SeekerOfHealing]

All those post are misinterpretation of buddhist anatta which will not bring you anything beside confusion.

[Michael Sternbach]

You might want to re-read that first paper. It specifically says that the expected Sagnac effect due to the Earth's orbit around the Sun is an order of magnitude too small to be detectable with current measurement precision.

 

The author mentions that the orbital Sagnac is much larger than the rotational Sagnac effect, but it is not being registered.

 

As such, he is presenting a local-ether model which the IOP thought enough of to publish it.

 

Here is how to correctly calculate the orbital Sagnac effect:

 

http://www.anti-relativity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=39644&sid=380ab2ccf12f0e84dc604ec3feeed59e#p39644

 

http://anti-relativity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=34935#p34935

 

It is much larger than the rotational Sagnac, as it should be: the velocity is much larger as is the area required by the formula itself.

 

 

But it is not being recorded/registered.

 

Now, in order to remove all of your doubts regarding the correctness of my assertions here is the M. Ruderfer experiment (1960-1961), the first NULL result in the history of ether theory.

 

 

Ruderfer, Martin (1960) “First-Order Ether DriftExperiment Using the Mössbauer Radiation,”Physical Review Letters, Vol. 5, No. 3, Sept. 1, pp191-192Ruderfer, Martin (1961) “Errata—First-Order EtherDrift Experiment Using the Mössbauer Radiation,”Physical Review Letters, Vol. 7, No. 9, Nov. 1, p 361In 1961, M. Ruderfer proved mathematically and experimentally, using the spinning Mossbauer effect, the FIRST NULL RESULT in ether drift theory.

 

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1846721#msg1846721

 

Analysis of the spinning Mossbauer experiments is a natural step toward analysis of the slightly more complex and much larger-scale Global Positioning System (GPS). This system constitutes a large scale near-equivalent to the spinning Mossbauer experiments.The transit time between the satellite and ground-based receivers is routinely measured.In addition, the atomic clocks on the satellite are carefully monitored; and high precision corrections are provided as part of the information transmitted from the satellites.Because the satellites and the receivers rotate at different rates (unlike the Mossbauer experiments), a correction for the motion of the receiver during the transit time is required. This correction is generally referred to as a Sagnac correction, since it adjusts for anisotropy of the speed of light as far as the receiver is concerned. 

 

Why is there no requirement for a Sagnac correction due to the earth’s orbital motion? Like the transit time in the spinning Mossbauer experiments, any such effect would be completely canceled by the orbital-velocity effect on the satellite clocks.Specifically, there is substantial independent experimental evidence that clock speed always affects the clock frequency and, as the GPS system shows, the spin velocity of the earth clearly affects the clock rate. This being the case, the null result of the rotating Mössbauer experiments actually implies that an ether drift must exist or else the clock effect would not be canceled and a null result would not be present.A GPS satellite orbiting the Earth, while at the same time the entire system is orbiting the Sun, IS A LARGE SCALE SPINNING MOSSBAUER EXPERIMENT.Given the very fact that these GPS satellites DO NOT record the orbital Sagnac effect, means that THE HYPOTHESES OF THE RUDERFER EXPERIMENT ARE FULFILLED.Why is there no requirement for a Sagnac correction due to the earth’s orbital motion? Like the transit time in the spinning Mossbauer experiments, any such effect would be completely canceled by the orbital-velocity effect on the satellite clocks.However, indirectly, the counteracting effects of the transit time and clock slowing induced biases indicate that an ether drift is present. This is because there is independent evidence that clocks are slowed as a result of their speed. Thus, ether drift must exist or else the clock slowing effect would be observed. In fact, there is other evidence that the wave-front bending and absence of the Sagnac effect in the earth-centered frame is due to the clock-biasing effects of velocity and that an ether drift velocity actually exists in the earth-centered frame. First, the gradient of the solar gravitational effects upon clocks on the surface of the earth is such that the clocks will speed up and slow down in precisely the correct way to retain the appropriate up-wind and down-wind clock biases. Thus, the clocks must be biased or else the solar gravitational effects would become apparent.

 

 

 

As if this wasn't enough, the Sun's gravitational potential is not being recorded either by the clocks of the GPS satellites.

 

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1846706#msg1846706

 

Such an oscillation exceeds

the resolution of the measurements by more than two

orders of magnitude and, if present, would be very easily

observed. Nevertheless, contradicting the predictions of

GR, no sign of such oscillation is observed. This is the well known and so long unsolved non-midnight problem.In fact observations show that the rate of theatomic clocks on Earth and in the 24 GPS satellites isruled by only and exclusively the Earth’s gravitationalfield and that effects of the solar gravitational potential

are completely absent.

 

On the other hand, the time dilation effect of the solargravitational field on the atomic clocks orbiting withEarth round the Sun, which is predicted by GR but notobserved, is a highly precise observation. It exceeds byorders of magnitude the experimental precision andhence is infinitely more reliable. If the orbital motion ofEarth round the Sun suppresses the time dilation due tothe solar gravitational field and moreover does not showthe predicted relativistic time dilation due to this orbitalmotion, then it seems reasonable that a clock in a satelliteorbiting round the Earth in a direct equatorial orbit or in ajet flying round the Earth too should give no evidence ofsuch a relativistic time dilation. The relativistic time dilationalleged in both these round the world Sagnac experimentsis in clear and frontal contradiction with the absence of such a relativistic time dilation effect in thecase of the orbiting Earth round the Sun.

 

 

The missing orbital Sagnac effect coupled with the missing solar gravitational potential effect, and the Ruderfer experiment, prove clearly that the Earth does not orbit the Sun at all.

No. The article concludes that the Earth (and other celestial bodies) carry their own local ether field with them. A conclusion that I have reached on my own long ago, using a quite different approach. I appreciate you providing additional evidence by linking this article, however, I don't agree that it refutes the heliocentric model. Heliocentrism and geocentrism are more a matter of perspective in my book.

[Brian]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_spheres

 

Copernicus is rolling in his grave.

 

FWIW, Sagnac effect is not just entirely consistent with Relativity but can be derived directly from it. There truly is no mystery here.

[Marblehead]

Your post reminded me of a Taoist teacher I took some workshops from years ago who claimed that he was sometimes "two places at once."  I´m a big believer in impossible sounding things, so I didn´t even blink when he started to go on about "bilocation."  Who knows what possibilities open up when we really get, on a cellular level, that who we are is not limited to our physical bodies? 

 

It´s one thing to talk about whether or not we are only our bodies; quite another to have experiences that expand our notions of who we think we are.  I´d like to discover for myself whether or not bilocation is possible.  As fun as it is to debate, at some point ya gotta sit down and breathe.  Or at least I do.

 

I cannot deny this possibility.  Yeah, I know, that's not normal for me.  It's more a mind game than anything else.  Our body (the physical essence) is in only one place.  However, our mind can have us in another location and we will feel the same emotions we would as if we were actually physically in that other place.

 

I would relate this experience to our personal Chi (Spirit) which is, while we are alive, beyond physical materialism.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Marblehead

[Michael Sternbach]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_spheres

Copernicus is rolling in his grave.

FWIW, Sagnac effect is not just entirely consistent with Relativity but can be derived directly from it. There truly is no mystery here.

Copernicus did accept the celestial spheres. As the Wikipedia article notes, they were generally thought of as consisting of rarefied (read: subtle, etheric) matter rather than anything physical. A concept that is still significant from the perspective of natural philosophy and spiritual cosmology, as long as it's not taken in too naive a manner.

[Brian]

Copernicus did accept the celestial spheres. As the Wikipedia article notes, they were generally thought of as consisting of rarefied (read: subtle, etheric) matter rather than anything physical. A concept that is still significant from the perspective of natural philosophy and spiritual cosmology, as long as it's not taken in too naive a manner.

Indeed, he clung to celestial spheres but correctly abandoned geocentrism. Enter, stage right: Galileo, Kepler, Brahe, Newton, et al. "On the shoulders of giants" and all that.

 

There are some issues with the "local ether" theories but I totally agree that we tossed out the idea of ether prematurely. That did accelerate the formulation of Relativity but I think we are now having to take a step back towards more classical concepts while simultaneously moving into increasingly non-classical arenas.

[sandokhan]

Copernicus is rolling in his grave. (Brian)

 

The complete demonstration that Copernicus is a fictional character invented much later in history, at least after 1600 AD:

 

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1643860#msg1643860

 

Whoever cooked up De Revolutionibus was a sun worshipper.

 

In the middle of all sits Sun enthroned. In this most beautiful temple could we place this luminary in any better position from which he can illuminate the whole at once? He is rightly called the Lamp, the Mind, the Ruler of the Universe: Hermes Trismegistus names him the Visible God, Sophocles’ Electra calls him the All-seeing. So the Sun sits as upon a royal throne ruling his children the planets which circle round him. The Earth has the Moon at her service. As Aristotle says, in his On Animals, the Moon has the closest relationship with the Earth. Meanwhile the Earth conceives by the Sun, and becomes pregnant with an annual rebirth (De Revolutionibus, Of the Order of the Heavenly Bodies 10).

 

 

In order to understand how both Galilei and Kepler were also used as fictional characters in order to induce the idea of heliocentricity, you must start here: the Gauss easter formula.

 

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg758652#msg758652

 

 

Now you are ready for this:

 

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1638725#msg1638725

 

 

Whoever wrote up the works attributed to Kepler, had to fake/fudge each and every piece of data, here is the amazing discovery that this has indeed been done:

 

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1776670#msg1776670

 

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1776680#msg1776680

 

 

Sagnac effect is not just entirely consistent with Relativity but can be derived directly from it.

 

Obviously you haven't done your homework on this one.

 

Here is Dr. Wolfgang Engelhardt, from the Max Planck Institute of Physics, who made a profound discovery: STR does not apply at all to the Sagnac effect.

http://aflb.ensmp.fr/AFLB-401/aflb401m820.pdf

By applying correct relativistic formula composition law for velocities, formula (7) of his paper, the well known infinitesimal time increments formula, used by all relativists,  formula (8 ), and the correct derivation of formula (10) (he even provides three well known references on this formula), the author does show that STR does not predict the Sagnac effect.

 

 

The Sagnac effect is far larger than the effect forecast by relativity theory.

STR has no possible function in explaining the Sagnac effect.

The Sagnac effect is a non-relativistic effect.

COMPARISON OF THE SAGNAC EFFECT WITH SPECIAL RELATIVITY, starts on page 7, calculations/formulas on page 8

http://www.naturalphilosophy.org/pdf/ebooks/Kelly-TimeandtheSpeedofLight.pdf

page 8

Because many investigators claim that the
Sagnac effect is made explicable by using the
Theory of Special Relativity, a comparison of
that theory with the actual test results is given
below. It will be shown that the effects
calculated under these two theories are of very
different orders of magnitude, and that
therefore the Special Theory is of no value in
trying to explain the effect. 


Thus the Sagnac effect is far larger than any
purely Relativistic effect. For example,
considering the data in the Pogany test (8 ),
where the rim of the disc was moving with a
velocity of 25 m/s, the ratio dtS/dtR is about
1.5 x 10^7. Any attempt to explain the Sagnac
as a Relativistic effect is thus useless, as it is
smaller by a factor of 10^7. 


Referring back to equation (I), consider a disc
of radius one kilometre. In this case a fringe
shift of one fringe is achieved with a velocity
at the perimeter of the disc of 0.013m/s. This
is an extremely low velocity, being less than
lm per minute. In this case the Sagnac effect
would be 50 billion times larger than the
calculated effect under the Relativity Theory.


Post (1967) shows that the two (Sagnac and STR) are of very different orders of magnitude. He says that the dilation factor to be applied under SR is “indistinguishable with presently available equipment” and “is still one order smaller than the Doppler correction, which occurs when observing fringe shifts” in the Sagnac tests. He also points out that the Doppler effect “is v/c times smaller than the effect one wants to observe." Here Post states that the effect forecast by SR, for the time dilation aboard a moving object, is far smaller than the effect to be observed in a Sagnac test.

 

 

 

The article concludes that the Earth (and other celestial bodies) carry their own local ether field with them. A conclusion that I have reached on my own long ago, using a quite different approach. (Michael)

 

 

Wonderful, but it won't help heliocentricity a bit.

 

In fact the "local ether field being carried along" is actually the last stand of the relativists.

 

It is called MLET, or Modified Lorentz Ether Theory.

 

MLET (Modified Lorentz Ether Theory) is based on the Lorentz transformation (Lorentz factor/contraction), and thus, is equally invalid.

http://www.gsjournal.net/old/weuro/agathan5.pdf


The colossal mistakes committed by Lorentz and Einstein in deriving the Lorentz transformation/factor:

http://relativityunraveled.net/chapter-4-the-michelson-morley-experiment/

http://relativityunraveled.net/chapter-5-the-lorentz-transformation/

http://relativityunraveled.net/chapter-1-introduction/

Dr. Hans Zweig, Stanford University: http://wiki.naturalphilosophy.org/wiki/hans-j-zweig/

 

 

Also that local ether would mean that we have to add FRICTIONAL TERMS to the RE (round earth) orbital equations of motions.

 

It is now being assumed that those equations form a Hamiltonian, that is, they do not include friction terms.

 

That would unravel the orbits pretty quickly.

 

By the way here is the three body problem paradox, a disaster for heliocentricity:

 

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1774581#msg1774581

Edited May 4, 2017 by sandokhan