Mair 6:9

[Taoist Texts]

  the directive, to always do your utmost, others like being fat is bad, may never even be verbalized.

 

But fat is horribly bad is not it? Should not a reasonable person do his utmost to slim down rather than unlearn the both directives, and keep digging his early grave with a knife and fork?

[Michael Sternbach]

I don't even know where the Matrix is.

You would have to take the red pill for knowing that!

 

(But I suspect, in truth, you already did.)

 

Now Confucius is seen in early Daoism as being lost in the Matrix (and sometimes as responsible for creating it in the first place) - a regrettable condition which is overcome only by the Daoist sage.

 

It's about the conflict between the limitation of convention and the liberty of spontaneous living.

[flowing hands]

Now I've kept out of these hallowed halls of Chuang Tzu, but many years ago I spoke to Chuang Tzu (he is an Immortal), If I had more time it would be interesting to beg him to come and talk about the known writings that we have. Keep you posted.

[Marblehead]

But fat is horribly bad is not it? Should not a reasonable person do his utmost to slim down rather than unlearn the both directives, and keep digging his early grave with a knife and fork?

 

Reminded me of a song:

 

 

 

[Marblehead]

Now I've kept out of these hallowed halls of Chuang Tzu, but many years ago I spoke to Chuang Tzu (he is an Immortal), If I had more time it would be interesting to beg him to come and talk about the known writings that we have. Keep you posted.

 

Yes, if ever there is an immortal one of them has to be Chuang Tzu.

 

I doubt there was any association between Lao Tzu and Confucius but it should be a given that Confucius was aware of Daoist thought.

 

And for sure Chuang Tzu knew of Confucius' thoughts and writings.  The two philosophies conflict at their very roots.

 

Of course, I am biased in favor of Chuang Tzu.

[Marblehead]

You would have to take the red pill for knowing that!

 

(But I suspect, in truth, you already did.)

 

Now Confucius is seen in early Daoism as being lost in the Matrix (and sometimes as responsible for creating it in the first place) - a regrettable condition which is overcome only by the Daoist sage.

 

It's about the conflict between the limitation of convention and the liberty of spontaneous living.

 

I am truly ignorant of the concept of "Matrix".  I think it has something to do with time being cyclical.  I don't buy into that.  Time is linear.  However, yes, there are cycles within the progression of time.  Something like one step backward and two steps forward.  The trick is to make sure we don't do one step forward and two steps backward.

[Michael Sternbach]

I am truly ignorant of the concept of "Matrix". I think it has something to do with time being cyclical. I don't buy into that. Time is linear. However, yes, there are cycles within the progression of time. Something like one step backward and two steps forward. The trick is to make sure we don't do one step forward and two steps backward.

The Matrix of the movie by the same title is a virtual reality created by a computer network that most humans spend their whole life in. Now you could see this as symbolic for the delusion people collectively create in their mind, as philosophers tell us since time immemorial (the Sanskrit word maya is related with matrix). (BTW, there is a version of the Matrix movies with a commentary by Ken Wilber and Cornel West available on DVD that discusses this kind of understanding.) This delusion is largely due to our life long conditioning with limiting socio-cultural beliefs, as especially Daoism emphasizes.

 

The Chinese Daoists regarded most of all Confucius as the author of these beliefs, blindfolding people from an understanding of how the Dao and, most importantly, their own spontaneous self truly function. In Western countries, the doctrines of the Church (which I differentiate from the real teachings of Jesus, which were actually rather close to Daoist philosophy) served a similar purpose.

 

I hope that this brought you up to speed regarding the meaning of the Matrix.

 

Moreover, I agree with your view of there being cycles within the progression of time. And yes: Even when we are driven to take a step backward every now and then, hopefully we can compensate for this by two steps forward next, so we won't be walking in a circle, but up the windings of a spiral, after all.

Edited May 7, 2017 by Michael Sternbach

[Stosh]

But fat is horribly bad is not it? Should not a reasonable person do his utmost to slim down rather than unlearn the both directives, and keep digging his early grave with a knife and fork?

His or her choice how they choose to live, not yours or mine, nor do heavy folks deserve the hatred and self righteous judgement aimed at them. You dont know how or when, so if you got hit by a truck, the point was moot, people die of many things and every time it nullifies all the rest. But the fatness isnt the issue ,its not the only message, need more? That its fine to retaliate, fine to hate, fine to judge, lie ,hoard, violate, sneak ,objectify, and do every other ugly thing that folks excuse by saying everybody else does it. Yknow vegetarians and folks that take multivitamins live shorter lives too? How about the stat that says ten percent of americans suffer from cognitive disorders and and generalized anxiety.

Im sure you feel the attitude is appropriate because you judge overeating Deserves condemnation, that is exactly the problem.

[Stosh]

Sorry, I dont mean to hammer you about this. Just consider This,,, Dude a is somehow deemed not ideal by guy b, guy b judges dude a , and dude a knows it, Is this in any way better for either of them than if guy b just accepted dude a , and minded his own business? attending to their own issues? are women better off being scared by men , men expecting skin color to be predictive of virtue,? etc A price is paid by judge and judged, whether the price is well spent as compared to making decisions ad hoc ...... I think Taoism and other faiths suggest not.

[Taoist Texts]

Sorry, I dont mean to hammer you about this. .., Is this in any way better for either of them than if guy b just accepted dude a , and minded his own business? 

No problem. Of course it is. ) But you can not live in a society 

 

We are socialized as children

 

and be not socialized. Hence you gotta keep the Confucian virtues, which just means to be a good member of the society and making it a better place for everybody. Lao-zi never advocated abandoning the virtues. Zhuang-zi did. And it is not doable if you want to live among men.

 

What LZ suggested is not enforcing or encouraging those virtues by the state. However, even that was still doable in LZ's time, but not in Con-zi  times anymore.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Taoist Texts

[Stosh]

The ways in which you and I read the larger messages these guys had, heavily colors our opinions on the opinions those guys had.that Goes without saying.

Its possible to treat the messages with a sort of , disbelief. One reading like that is unaffected , comes to no new understanding ,like watching a T V show, where you pretend for the sake of enjoying the story, that the story is real. , but as soon as the TV is turned off, the message is gone.

Does the reader really consider the texts wise, if they actually dismiss them, just as soon as the next event happens ? and why read these guys if what they say is thousands of years old bullshit meant for aristocrats,?

[Taoist Texts]

Does the reader really consider the texts wise, if they actually dismiss them, just as soon as the next event happens ? and why read these guys if what they say is thousands of years old bullshit meant for aristocrats,?

Well if so, - then no reason).

[Stosh]

Well if so, - then no reason).

Quite right. So where else might we agree?

These guys are making philosophical argument designed to convince and enlighten their readers?

Edited May 8, 2017 by Stosh

[Michael Sternbach]

The ways in which you and I read the larger messages these guys had, heavily colors our opinions on the opinions those guys had.that Goes without saying.

Yes. It never ceases to amaze me in what different light Laotzu is seen by different people. And all have textual evidence for their notions, of course.

 

While this is indeed partially due to what filter we read him (depending on what philosophical outlook we prefer ourselves), another part may be attributed to Laotzu in fact representing views at different times that are hard to reconcile with each other in our mind.

 

We moderns don't like that kind of ambivalence. We want to know if this is 'a good guy' or 'a bad guy' we are dealing with. But Laotzu outrageously defies that kind of classification. And so does Daoism...

[Taoist Texts]

Quite right. So where else might we agree? These guys are making philosophical argument designed to convince and enlighten their readers?

Of course. Yes, that's what they do. The question is - to convince them of what exactly?

 

The ways in which you and I read the larger messages these guys had, heavily colors our opinions on the opinions those guys had.

 

Well, i personally can read  authors words  as they are black on white, without ever so slightly coloring them with my opinions. I know it is a rare feat but i can.  Its one of my superpowers).

[Stosh]

Yes. It never ceases to amaze me in what different light Laotzu is seen by different people. And all have textual evidence for their notions, of course.

 

While this is indeed partially due to what filter we read him (depending on what philosophical outlook we prefer ourselves), another part may be attributed to Laotzu in fact representing views at different times that are hard to reconcile with each other in our mind.

 

We moderns don't like that kind of ambivalence. We want to know if this is 'a good guy' or 'a bad guy' we are dealing with. But Laotzu outrageously defies that kind of classification. And so does Daoism...

Yes ! He and ' it ' certainly does. So why do the trump threads get so much action , why does there need to be a special womens section , and so forth?   

[Marblehead]

Because we all need to feel special.

[Stosh]

Of course. Yes, that's what they do. The question is - to convince them of what exactly?

Well, i personally can read  authors words  as they are black on white, without ever so slightly coloring them with my opinions. I know it is a rare feat but i can.  Its one of my superpowers).

You Do have a lot of self discipline.  I grant you that. 

What they are suggesting , should be quite evident , and your superpower should be appropriate.  

There are ideas which thwart though. 

[dawei]

Yes ! He and ' it ' certainly does. So why do the trump threads get so much action , why does there need to be a special womens section , and so forth?  

 

or even a ZZ or LZ section 

[rene]

or even a ZZ or LZ section

Indeed!! Or any sections at all! Or threads for that matter! TDB can be a big pile of random posts, in no speific order, to dive into & play! No fights that way cause there'd be no structure to press against! Hell, we dont even need posts - we can all just throw words out there and they can fall, or not, into some semblence of order/chaos until we realize even words aren't needed, and we can just sit & smile & watch the little letters dance across the pages.... or not. (-:

[Stosh]

Quite right , though it seems like there's a bit of sarcasm implied. But I cant really attend to points that haven't been made. As it stands it appears that yous want to defy my my point , yous just cant verbalize a reason to object to it.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Stosh

[rene]

Hi Stosh, if that was for me, my point is only that it's useful (for me) to discern between fresh milk & sour milk before it goes in my mouth. Both fresh & sour have their usefulness; both can either benefit or harm (depending on application); both can be considered good or bad (not inherently within themselves) for the intended need/use. Structural categories can help with those determinations.

 

That's all. (-: Warm regards

[Stosh]

Hi Stosh, if that was for me, my point is only that it's useful (for me) to discern between fresh milk & sour milk before it goes in my mouth. Both fresh & sour have their usefulness; both can either benefit or harm (depending on application); both can be considered good or bad (not inherently within themselves) for the intended need/use. Structural categories can help with those determinations.

 

That's all. (-: Warm regards

Yes it was aimed at you and Dawei , Mh made a point which is rather abbreviated , but potentially is valid or true.

The Trump threads are like milk ? Is the idea is to pre-judge the candidate , or is your opinion of the better idea,  to sniff the milk,  an ad-hoc , as you go judgement,  based on what it actually presented. 

The structural category of a womens section is of use because it provides a means to decide whether the posts are to be considered valid or not? So structural categories help you make decisions without waitng to see if the information is valid,, its faster. No?

Edited May 8, 2017 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

I got lost during the conversation but that's okay, it happens to me a lot.

[cold]

I'm not lost but rather napping in the zzzzzzzzzzz section.