[DDJ Meaning] Chapter 8

[dawei]

Legge:

 

8

The highest excellence is like (that of) water. The excellence 

of water appears in its benefiting all things, and in its occupying, 

without striving (to the contrary), the low place which all men 

dislike. Hence (its way) is near to (that of) the Tao.

 

The excellence of a residence is in (the suitability of) the place; 

that of the mind is in abysmal stillness; that of associations is in 

their being with the virtuous; that of government is in its securing 

good order; that of (the conduct of) affairs is in its ability; and 

that of (the initiation of) any movement is in its timeliness.

 

And when (one with the highest excellence) does not wrangle (about 

his low position), no one finds fault with him. 

 

 

Lau:

 

8

Highest good is like water. 

Because water excels in benefiting the myriad creatures without contending with them and settles where none would like to be, it comes close to the way.

 

In a home it is the site that matters; 

In quality of mind it is depth that matters; 

In an ally it is benevolence that matters; 

In speech it is good faith that matters; 

In government it is order that matters; 

In affairs it is ability that matters; 

In action it is timeliness that matters.

 

It is because it does not contend that it is never at fault. 

 

Feng / English:

 

8

The highest good is like water. 

Water give life to the ten thousand things and does not strive.

It flows in places men reject and so is like the Tao.

 

In dwelling, be close to the land. 

In meditation, go deep in the heart. 

In dealing with others, be gentle and kind. 

In speech, be true. 

In ruling, be just. 

In daily life, be competent. 

In action, be aware of the time and the season.

 

No fight: No blame.

 

 

Bill Porter (Red Pine)

 

8

The best are like water

bringing help to all

without competing

choosing what others avoid 

they thus approach the Tao 

dwelling with earth

thinking with depth

helping with kindness

speaking with honesty

governing with peace

working with skill

and moving with time

and because they don't compete 

they aren't maligned

 

 

Jonathan Star

 

8

The best way to life is to be like water

For water benefits all things and goes against none of them

It provides for all people and even cleanses those places a man is loath to go

In this way it is just like Tao

Live in accordance with the nature of things

Build your house on solid ground

Keep your mind still

When giving, be kind

When speaking, be truthful

When ruling, be just

When working, be one-pointed

When acting, remember ? timing is everything

One who lives in accordance with nature does not go against the way of things

He moves in harmony with the present moment always knowing the truth of just what to do

 

 

 

 

[Marblehead]

But water can be extremely brutal as well.  Let us not deny reality.

 

 

The rest of the chapter is excellent advice no matter how one looks at it.

[Stosh]

If the dao or daoist is aiming to be - abiding in the scene that men disdain,

then how is timeliness or kindness or gentleness or competence or truth or justice or living in valleys , doing that ? ,

since these are not examples of attitudes that are disdained generally speaking

but are universally acclaimed as being of virtue.   

Bill Porters version makes sense but really stands out as perhaps not being very faithful to what words are in the text. 

The word 'shirk' would probably be better than reject , disdain , avoid and so forth. 

The idea being that in humility one abides by virtuous behavior they know they should, as water remains true to its course , downhill , despite obstacles and diversions. 

Edited May 2, 2017 by Stosh

[Jeff]

For this one, I would say that we should just go with the Shaman Flowing Hands version...

 

The greatest good is like water. Water gives life to the Ten Thousand Things, but does not strive. Because it does not strive, it flows in places without preference, depending on the flow and so is like the Dao.

 

In dwelling, be close to the land. In meditation, go deep into the heart. In dealing with others, be gentle and kind. In speech, be straight and truthful. In ruling, be just and honest. In business, be honest and competent. In action, be careful of the timing.

 

Be forever these things and life will never burden you with troubles.

[dawei]

Ok, as SFH was mentioned, I'll add a few more:

 

FH:  A transmission

 

The greatest good is like water.

Water gives life to the Ten Thousand Things, but does not strive.

Because it does not strive, it flows in places without preference, depending on the flow and so is like the Dao.

In dwelling, be close to the land.

In meditation, go deep into the heart.

n dealing with others, be gentle and kind.

In speech, be straight and truthful. In ruling, be just and honest.

In business, be honest and competent.

In action, be careful of the timing.

Be forever these things and life will never burden you with troubles.

 

 

Ni:   An elucidation

 

One of universal nature is like water;
he benefits all things but does not contend with them.
He unprotestingly takes the lowest position;
thus, he is close to the universal truth.
One of universal virtue chooses to live in a suitable environment.
He attunes his mind to become profound.
He deals with others with kindness.
In his speech, he is sincere.
His rule brings about order.
His work is efficient.
His actions are opportune.
One of deep virtue does not contend with people;
thus, he is above reproach.
 

[dawei]

If the dao or daoist is aiming to be - abiding in the scene that men disdain,

then how is timeliness or kindness or gentleness or competence or truth or justice or living in valleys , doing that ? ,

since these are not examples of attitudes that are disdained generally speaking

but are universally acclaimed as being of virtue.   

Bill Porters version makes sense but really stands out as perhaps not being very faithful to what words are in the text. 

The word 'shirk' would probably be better than reject , disdain , avoid and so forth. 

The idea being that in humility one abides by virtuous behavior they know they should, as water remains true to its course , downhill , despite obstacles and diversions. 

 

Not sure I follow as you seem to explain Confucianism more than Daoism and the latter is like a correct of the former.

 

I didn't see this as Dao[ism] aims to abide in the scene that men disdain but is simply a comparison of the Way vs the Way of man.  Man likes to excel but water just follows its nature even if that means it goes 'downhill' which is a concept man would normally avoid or disdain.   Water doesn't care about such things.  

[Stosh]

I have another six or seven versions of translation I review to get a broader idea of the common sentiments , so whether yours address suitability , or loathing to go , as in Star's or, rejection as in Feng's .etc ,

just about all of them are presenting some sort of ' either or 'scenario , which need to link up to what water does and fosters excellence. So yes the word shirk would correct the other polemic word choices.

Whether the idea is something like Confucius would support is moot, but the chapters provide rationale for a conclusion, and like I already indicated , saying that men reject the manner of water ,, but the manner of water is to be like virtuous things ,, things men Do consider virtuous. which unfixed ,makes no sense.

So my modification suggests that although men do consider some things virtuous ,they dont always do them, The sage, by rolling his sleeves up, and going the extra mile, rather than say the work is beneath him doesnt get distracted, lose focus,, ,he thus goes where others wont go, ,, his commitment ,due to his understanding of himself , his unalloyed inner conviction, brings him to excellence. Whether its in his meditations , social relationships, or work. It is Easy, for him to excel because like water he is singlemindedly with his eyes on his ultimate personal aims which could be raising money for charity, seeing the world, or whatever! . rather than getting bogged down in useless strife ,self doubt ,bad attitudes and so forth.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Stosh

[Stosh]

The nature of water is to flow downhill , its true water doesnt care about accolades, its just doing its thing ,like fire wood metal and earth do.

But you did hit on a sore spot , that if you hold up behaviors, as being of high virtue, then to give a darn, you have to want to have those virtues, and consider them such. So you could never become the perfect sage by following this desire to have virtue , nor could the sage write it down, because he couldnt recognize these things as being virtues to pursue!

Picture youre looking at the world from an entirely nondualist view, then try to define for someone else what virtue and vice are.... you cant do it. Neither can you train yourself to avoid vice and somehow learn to not see some things as vice.

So what we are dealing with here is helpful advice on how to excel by trying to emulate the flexible yet determined behavior of water.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Stosh

[Gerry]

But water can be extremely brutal as well.  Let us not deny reality.

 

It does not contend and does not resist, but it will smooth the rough stone.

Edited May 7, 2017 by Gerry

[Marblehead]

It does not contend and does not resist, but it will smooth the rough stone.

 

Exactly.  It is always just taking the course of least resistance.   There is not intention.  Its nature is to seek the lowest level possible.

[Gerry]

Exactly.  It is always just taking the course of least resistance.   There is not intention.  Its nature is to seek the lowest level possible.

 

By so doing its over comes the irresistible, impenetrable, without intention and without desire.

[Stosh]

Then again , if you drop a rock in the water,  the water has to get out of the way. If you heat the water it goes away,  if you divert the water to a sewer it ends up in a sewer. Once the water is as low as it can get , it has no energy to get back up again and if you take a leak in it there's no part of it that will remain unsullied. 

[Marblehead]

But evaporation corrects all those problems.

[silent thunder]

or this haiku:

 

 

muddiest waters

left undisturbed by 'process'

rest in clarity

[Marblehead]

or this haiku:

 

 

muddiest waters

left undisturbed by 'process'

rest in clarity

 

Gotta' be careful with that one though.  Undisturbed water will start growing algae if there is sunlight and nutrients making the water useless to most animals.

[cold]

not only could he sing them but Muddy Waters was able to give one the blues

[ladyniguma]

.

Edited August 9, 2017 by ladyniguma

[Brian]

But evaporation corrects all those problems.

Problems according to whom?

[Marblehead]

Problems according to whom?

 

Anyone who considers them problems.

[cold]

Water is capable of great transformation and adaptability.

Starting as a fluid add heat and it becomes a gas, remove heat (chill) and it becomes a solid.

[Marblehead]

And if you keep the water cold, well, ...

[Brian]

Water is capable of great transformation and adaptability.

Starting as a fluid add heat and it becomes a gas, remove heat (chill) and it becomes a solid.

Not to mention triple point...

[AussieTrees]

Water is capable of great transformation and adaptability.

Starting as a fluid add heat and it becomes a gas, remove heat (chill) and it becomes a solid.

Water is a god giving life it intergrates with life without changing from being water.

[dawei]

water, water, water... this is not about water... but what is within.   Don't focus on the first three lines but the last two lines.

 

As usual, LZ starts with a basic idea but ends with an application.    

[Marblehead]

But we like water.  After all, our body is approximately 65% water.

 

But sure, if we do not compete no one can compete with us.  But where is the fun in that?