lobotomy via psychiatry!

[cold]

Quantity of life versus Quality?

And yes hope springs eternal, in most cases.

But not all...

[3bob]

That idea of possible chemical cure of a supposed chemical imbalance in a supposed diseased brain was raised in the book many times and after 60-70 years of data and study it has been shown that the chemicals in anti-depressants never cure, they only blunt (or worse) the connections between the frontal cortex and the rest of the brain.  Granted there are certain organic type brain diseases with chemical imbalances where people have never been on anti-depressants, but to turn around and say and correlate that depression is caused by chemical imbalance is something that has shockingly never been proven in any kind of study - although we have been fed that disinformation for decades!!  There is also a great deal of genetically based speculation that has desperately tried to correlate depression with genes to justify that theory that ends up disproving itself!

Edited May 3, 2017 by 3bob

[Stosh]

Quantity of life versus Quality?

And yes hope springs eternal, in most cases.

But not all...

Yep.

[Stosh]

That idea of possible chemical cure of a supposed chemical imbalance in a supposed diseased brain was raised in the book many times and 60-70 years of data has shown that the chemicals in anti-depressants never cure, they only blunt (or worse) the connections between the frontal cortex and the rest of the brain.  Granted there are certain organic type brain diseases with chemical imbalances where people have never been on anti-depressants, but to turn around and say depression is caused by chemical imbalance is something that has shockingly never been proven in any kind of study - although we have been fed that disinformation for decades!!

So what are you thinking causes the long term depressions and anxiety that some unfortunately experience? Im thinking proven yet or not ,,maybe never to be,, It still seems to explain things.

[Taomeow]

So what do you say the rest of the time?

 

Daisy, daisy, give me your answer true... 

[cold]

Is that like a buttercup?

She loves me she loves me not...

[3bob]

we hear about all sorts of chemical type processes and things going on in the brain - it is a major, major field of study, but again the chemical severance or lobotomy - to whatever degree - of the frontal cortex and higher brain/mind functions is not a cure and never will be, for killing depression in that way is not the same as solving it for the person and always leaving them with their brain/mind fully intact.  So getting back to all the other  areas of brain study and its importance is great but imo should not be lumped in with chemically blunting and in countless horrible cases damaging connection to frontal cortex - per my understanding.

Edited May 3, 2017 by 3bob

[Stosh]

Daisy, daisy, give me your answer true...

 

I dont get that, other than she does tell him the truth , which is sad and a bit harsh.Or it could mean you dont find me charming. Also sad.

[Stosh]

Well Im no brain surgeon , but it sounds like mitigation is the best known approach right now as things stand. So the choices are ugly.

[qicat]

I have found an interesting article here in regards what the topic is ( as mental health from TCM perspective). I will quote some of it and you can check the book on amazon ( https://www.amazon.com/Living-Authentically-Daoist-Contributions-Psychology/dp/1931483205/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1493838553&sr=8-1&keywords=living+authentically)

 

 

Practical Experience with Deathbringers, by J. Michael Wood

 

One prominent aspect of Daoist psychology is found in the so-called Three Deathbringers, also known as the Three Worms, demonic parasites that strive to make us sick and shorten our lives. From practical and clinical experience, I have observed certain actions in dealing with these demon archetypes as they manifest themselves in patients with various symptoms. Based on this, I propose a theory as to their formation and dissolution, as well as a methodology leading to the ultimate resolution of this particularly destructive energy form.

...

 

Unlike the noble yang spirits of the spirit souls, they are nasty and fundamentally evil creatures, beastly in shape and quite disastrous in their activities. The Baosheng jing describes them:

 

...

 

The seven material souls consist of the energy of yin and of evil. They are basically demons. They can make a person commit deadly evils, be stingy and greedy, jealous and full of envy. They give people bad dreams and make them clench their teeth, incite them to say “right” when they think “wrong.” In addition, they cause people to lose their vital essence in sexual passion and get dissipated by hankering after luxury and ease. Through them, people will completely lose all original purity and simplicity. (2a)

 

These souls, far from looking like human beings, are strangely formed devils, having birds’ heads, only one leg, tails, abominable outgrowth, and the like. Their names are accordingly Corpse Dog, Arrow in Ambush, Bird Darkness, Devouring Robber, Flying Poison, Massive Pollution, and Stinky Lungs.

 

...

 

Daoist psychology is made more complex by the appearance of three semi-supernatural agents, called the three worms (sanchong) or the three corpses (sanshi).

 

The upper deathbringer is called Peng Ju, also known as Ake (Shouter). He sits in the head and attacks the cinnabar field in the Niwan Palace [center of the head]. He causes people’s heads to be heavy, their eyesight blurred, their tears cold. He makes mucus assemble in their noses and their ears go deaf. Because of him, people’s teeth fall out, their mouths rot, and their faces shrink in wrinkles. He further deludes people so they desire carriages and horses, crave for fancy sounds and sights, and gloat over evil and filth. . . . The middle deathbringer is called Peng Zhi, also known as Zuozi (Maker). He enjoys deluding people with the five tastes and makes them greedy for the five colors. He lives in the human heart and stomach and attacks the Scarlet Palace [in the heart, the middle cinnabar field] together with its central heater. He causes people’s minds to be confused and forgetful, so that they are full of troubles, dry in saliva and low in energy. Dissipated and melancholy, they follow the false and see things in wrong perspective. . . . The lower deathbringer is called Peng Qiao, also known as Jixi (Junior). He lives in people’s stomachs and legs and attacks the lower parts of the body. He makes energy leak [through the genitals] from the Ocean of Qi [the lower cinnabar field] and thereby invites a multiplicity of ills. Attracting the robbers of human intention, he makes people hanker after women and sex. Courageous and zealous only in the pursuit of passion, people suffering from him are blindly attached to things and waste away. They have no way to control themselves and hold on to life. (7a-8b; Kohn 1995)

 

...

Clinical Observations

 

My experience has shown that a deathbringer forms when the patient has had deep and long bouts with the seven toxic emotions, leading to a state where they have become obsessive in nature. It seems that the patient’s self-worth is attacked to point that despair is bound with hopelessness, and life loses its value. However, instead of an outward expression of suicide, the patient uses a more passive-aggressive approach that internalizes a “death wish.” In conversations with such patients, it becomes apparent that they all carry a great deal of despair. Only a few express suicidal ideation verbally. They are, it seems, possessed by a “quiet killer” that slowly and thoroughly drains their life force. From working with various patients, I have come to believe that the deathbringers are formed as follows. A splintered spirit soul, which is yang in nature, having exited through the point at the top of the head due to intense trauma, resides outside the protective energetic shield of the body. The material souls, yin in nature— and the seven toxic emotions they feed on— in a state of extreme agitation express themselves so powerfully that they break through the spiritual weiqi field. They then attach themselves to, and combine with, the exposed, splintered spirit souls. This results in giving form and shape to the destructive, demonic archetype of a deathbringer: exactly which one of them appears depends on the exact nature of the toxic emotions.

 

In other words, the deathbringer is not some “outside” entity, but a product of our own powerful toxic emotions (yin) and creative skills combined with our true life force or “soul” energy (yang). The figure as visualized is a “marker” that helps clinicians to recognize what they are dealing with. How and why this particular marker came about is beyond the scope of this paper, but as a concept, it seems to be borne out in practice by the actions of the energy as clinical resolution is achieved. After clearing the demonic figure of its toxic, yin nature, the clear and peaceful yang nature of the spirit-soul energy does not “dissipate”, but instead flows back into the body through the Baihui point at the top of the head (GV20). The splintered portions of the spirit soul reintegrate with its fundamental spirit as it resides in the liver and the three elixir fields. Instead of a “banishment” ritual as might be done with a spirit entity, the clinical practice required is a soul-retrieval, preceded by additional steps of removing toxic yin energy from the entity. Results are instantaneous and obvious to both patient and clinician. Though ominous looking and sounding, and seemingly mythological in nature, the clinical work is very straightforward. It is not a long agonizing process. The deathbringers’ powerful and persistent power comes from the combination of the patient’s personally generated toxic will (yin) and its pirating of the spirit soul, which is part of the primordial spirit (yang). This makes it possible for the demonic manifestation...

 

...

 

From my experience in disconnecting, removing, and dissipating these entities, I find that they are completely driven by will and intention. They are devoted to one purpose only— the fulfillment of a silent death wish— and they go about it to the exclusion of all distractions, including the practitioner’s efforts to discomfit them. This indicates that they are not free-wheeling, outside entities, but internally generated and limited in both nature and dimension. Are they powerful? Yes, but only because of the power of the soul energy to which the toxic will have attached itself. A deathbringer is in fact nothing but a silent death wish. This death wish is still part of the person and an expression of his or her spirit. This is why I speak of the “splintered hun” as opposed to “the hun” as an operational term or phase. It expresses the conscious out-of-body experience of such traumatized people: they feel like they are watching themselves like dispassionate observers, either doing something or having something done to them. This is an experience of a partial or splintered soul.

 

Kohn, Livia (2016-11-22). Living Authentically: Daoist Contributions to Modern Psychology (Kindle Locations 4463-4471). Lulu.com. Kindle Edition. 

 

 

p.s. the guy has a practice. I assume if you have something acute, you might find him on the web and ask for a consultation...

 

p.p.s. One person I know ( who does lots of qigong and is a practitioner) did a treatment on me and I got suicadal thoughts after. Since I am constantly monitoring my state, I figured that out and went to Sifu and he "sealed" some stuff and did some other things most of people would not believe, but...Anyways... since I am doing research on qi deviations, this book came up and this guy with 2000 clinical cases. If I ever in Nashville I will probably stop by for some mentoring on how to deal with this stuff. 

 

p.p.s. Since I could not copy and paste the whole article ( in respect to the authors), feel free to ask questions about this. He has treatment protocols for dealing with this as well ( but I would really leave it to the hands of professionals).

[3bob]

anti-depressant's were released on the public starting around 1954. Whereas mankind has been dealing with depression for tens of thousands of years with many, many viable methods that do not blunt or sever the frontal cortex in any way....Taoism is one of those.  (although watch out for using certain types of alchemy compounds improperly or in some cases at all)

[Aetherous]

Medications can help in some cases in some people, and in others can do serious harm.

The same goes for therapy. It can either be beneficial, or harmful.

Not just saying this in a generalized way...it's really true. Be careful with psychiatry/psychololgy. But don't throw it out completely.

[Stosh]

Since when does daoism construe yin emotions to be toxic and yang ones as life affirming? Thats a flip.

[qicat]

Since when does daoism construe yin emotions to be toxic and yang ones as life affirming? Thats a flip.

Stosh, you need to read full article for this. I cannot post it here in full ( in respect to the authors and copyrights). The model sounds logical and JAJ referenced him ( Mr.Woods) in his books. If topic starter is looking for "practical" purposes, this reference might be helpful. 

[Stosh]

Stosh, you need to read full article for this. I cannot post it here in full ( in respect to the authors and copyrights). The model sounds logical and JAJ referenced him ( Mr.Woods) in his books. If topic starter is looking for "practical" purposes, this reference might be helpful.

 

Thanks for the offer, but it would be to confusing to reconcile the need for balance of scientific homeostasis and taiji, with the yin dominent view of the philosophy of Lao, and now this yang preferential bias of TCM being presented. So Ill just leave the tcm uninvestigated on my part.

[Taomeow]

Is that like a buttercup?

She loves me she loves me not...

 

[cold]

Thanks!

[Stosh]

Oh. Interesting reference compelling ,still unfortunate though in any of the directions it could point. On the perhaps coolly brighter note hal functions just fine in 2010.

[Taomeow]

Or it could mean you dont find me charming. Also sad.

 

I'm working on it. 

[Brian]

But you'll look sweet upon the seat of a bicycle built for two.

[liminal_luke]

One thing´s for certain: patients should be informed about the effects of these drugs (side and otherwise) and allowed to make decisions for themselves about their own treatment.

 

I don´t know how it is elsewhere, but here in Mexico psychiatrists ask questions and then just get their prescription pads out.  There´s no discussion of options, it´s just "take this."  My partner was prescribed Haldol, an old-style anti-psychotic.  We bought the stuff at a pharmacy after leaving the doctor´s office and then checked it out on the internet at home.  Turns out it can cause people to involuntarily stick their tongues out and make other weird movements, a "side-effect" that usually --but not always-- goes away if you stop taking the medication.  Anyway, my partner took a single dose and had the worst nightmare of his life.  So much for Haldol.

 

Many people believe these medications are over-prescribed and that they do more harm than good.  There´s lots of reason to think lifestyle interventions (chiefly diet and exercise) are a much better way to go.  Of course, few psychiatric patients have the emotional stamina to say yes to the jogging track and no to chocolate cake.  But some people do make these kind of changes in their lives, and they do get better.

 

Still, I´m grateful that these medicines exist.  When nothing else was working, they seemed to get my partner and I through some very hard times.

Edited May 4, 2017 by liminal_luke

[3bob]

revealing studies show that 60 years of very good and constant propaganda on these drugs is a major reason people have often developed reasonable pro and con ideas about them, yet I submit that if most of those reasonable people knew or had more information they would not touch the stuff with a ten foot pole !  

[Brian]

I'm not a psychiatrist or a mental health professional but I spent more than a decade in the pharmaceutical industry and more than two decades married to someone who worked with the chronically mentally ill. I think these types of medications are hugely over prescribed for a number of reasons (as is the case with so many meds) but I have also seen many cases in which the right meds have been almost miraculous, salvaging lives both figuratively and literally.

 

With great power comes great responsibility.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Brian

[3bob]

the "right" drugs to blunt or kill connection to the frontal cortex, thus blunting or killing depression via loss of higher brain function is not something I would classify as a miracle. or a real solution or cure

[Brian]

I would encourage volunteering at your local clubhouse, partial hospitalization program, or psychosocial rehab (or whatever model they are using) to gain some insight into the lives of the chronically mentally ill.