lobotomy via psychiatry!

[Stosh]

the "right" drugs to blunt or kill connection to the frontal cortex, thus blunting or killing depression via loss of higher brain function is not something I would classify as a miracle. or a real solution or cure

You keep phrasing this in an odd way ,

the frontal cortex is the center of logical reason ,forethought etc, the so called higher functions , when the lower brain centers like the amygdala , over-stimulate the fontal cortex we become aware of them react to the feelings and so forth , the connections feed back down to the lower centers but not as intensively , so the deep unknown irrational parts of the mind are more influential over the higher centers than the other way around. Im not sure that all mind altering drugs work in the same way but the idea that ones lower brain is being troublesome to getting through your life isn't all that identical with lobotomy. 

But you can relax,  we get the basic idea. 

[3bob]

Stosh, Considering how reasonable you are it stands to reason that now you might want to get the book and see for yourself what a highly respected Dr.of psychiatry (with 30 whatever number of years in practice)  saw, did, and researched to the 9th degree of detail concerning the effects of anti-depressant drugs on the human brain and human beings.?

If not you can also relax.

[3bob]

I know you mean well Brian but:

"chronically mentally ill"  labels and disempowers persons that could be fully or greatly healed through non-destructive methods,  while those with organic brain disease which is not of nor caused by mental/emotional states are in a different category.  That term is more of the propaganda to link mentally/emotionally suffering people with organic problems thus attempting to justify needing chemical treatment for same.  (which generates billions of dollars along with power for certain people over others)

Edited May 4, 2017 by 3bob

[Stosh]

Stosh, Considering how reasonable you are it stands to reason that now you might want to get the book and see for yourself what a highly respected Dr.of psychiatry (with 30 whatever number of years in practice)  saw, did, and researched to the 9th degree of detail concerning the effects of anti-depressant drugs on the human brain and human beings.?

If not you can also relax.

You're just not hearing my point or maybe just never will like it but  , I don't take any of that stuff , and anyway,

though I know some folks who do , all of the facts , whether they be truth falsity or a matter of perspective , are covered under the thing that 'I know there are risks'. I understand the import the subject could have on you or others , but I am not shocked , it is not news , to me , that the medical community is not much better than waving a chicken over someones head while blowing smoke up their ass. IN SOME RESPECTS , but there are also situations where there is no substitute which matches up to the challenge. Its an ugly choice, , you appear to be certain which way you would decide , that's fine. 

I've said my point enough , so if you go on I wont interrupt. Have a good morning.

[3bob]

its not news to me either expect in coming across much greater details counter to thinking there must be some balance to anti-depressents, btw. if there is some kind of balance it would be 99% against and 1% pending.  I appreciate your contributions and those of everyone else in this thread.  Btw get a haircut and a shave we can hardly see you under all that hair

Edited May 4, 2017 by 3bob

[Brian]

I know you mean well Brian but:

"chronically mentally ill" labels and disempowers persons that could be fully or greatly healed through non-destructive methods, while those with organic brain disease which is not of nor caused by mental/emotional states are in a different category. That term is more of the propaganda to link mentally/emotionally suffering people with organic problems thus attempting to justify needing chemical treatment for same. (which generates billions of dollars along with power for certain people over others)

With respect, 3bob, I think you would benefit from spending some time among this section of society.

[AussieTrees]

I know you mean well Brian but:

"chronically mentally ill" labels and disempowers persons that could be fully or greatly healed through non-destructive methods, while those with organic brain disease which is not of nor caused by mental/emotional states are in a different category. That term is more of the propaganda to link mentally/emotionally suffering people with organic problems thus attempting to justify needing chemical treatment for same. (which generates billions of dollars along with power for certain people over others)

Before modern day drugs they had no drugs so called medication,and the result was to build large institution where you could live,had to live,as society at the time of say 100 years ago was intolerant of the mentally ill.

So they created the asylum,large institutions of long term stay housing 600 to 1000 inpatients,for the worst of uncontrollable behaviours all they had were cells,padded or otherwise.

Most if not all of these institutions are now closed because in the 1950's someone crack it with the use of these drugs.

Few or any of these people got healed through using any other method.

And they tried everything.

Today's psych drugs still have potential for side effects,much less so as they are improving all the time.

No I agree that's not perfect,but it does offer respite from madness.

 

PS:Does anyone know what a ha ha wall is?

Edited May 4, 2017 by AussieTrees

[Taomeow]

Before modern day drugs they had no drugs so called medication,and the result was to build large institution where you could live,had to live,as society at the time of say 100 years ago was intolerant of the mentally ill.

So they created the asylum,large institutions of long term stay housing 600 to 1000 inpatients,for the worst of uncontrollable behaviours all they had were cells,padded or otherwise.

 

 

Only in the West though.  Where if you go back more than 100 years, the fate of the mentally ill was even worse.  But elsewhere, they were neither ostracized nor abused.  Most societies elsewhere believed (some still do, notably Hinduist and Buddhist) that if someone is crazy, it means his or her spirit does not reside in their body (partially or completely) and is instead hanging out in other realms, which is why the body and the earthly mind behave so erratically.  In most such places, the body was left alone unless its behavior threatened other bodies (contrary to popular belief, the percentage of violent people among the mentally ill is small -- about the same as among sane people).  In many cases, they were treated with extra respect and considered "holy" or "saintly" or "blessed" as in "touched by god."  The old Russian word for "mentally ill" -- "blazhenny" -- means literally this, as is evidenced in the name of the most famous cathedral, translated as St.Basil's, in the original Vasily Blazhenny -- Vasily the Holy Fool:

 

     

 

Oh, and of course there was treatment when human communities were shamanic.  The shaman journeyed to the other realms in search of the lost spirit and retrieved it.  In case of success (even today such cases are being documented, despite a drastic shortage of fully fledged and adequately trained shamans), the person was cured, not "managed." 

Edited May 4, 2017 by Taomeow

[Brian]

Only in the West though. Where if you go back more than 100 years, the fate of the mentally ill was even worse. But elsewhere, they were neither ostracized nor abused. Most societies elsewhere believed (some still do, notably Hinduist and Buddhist) that if someone is crazy, it means his or her spirit does not reside in their body (partially or completely) and is instead hanging out in other realms, which is why the body and the earthly mind behave so erratically. In most such places, the body was left alone unless its behavior threatened other bodies (contrary to popular belief, the percentage of violent people among the mentally ill is small -- about the same as among sane people). In many cases, they were treated with extra respect and considered "holy" or "saintly" or "blessed" as in "touched by god." The old Russian word for "mentally ill" -- "blazhenny" -- means literally this, as is evidenced in the name of the most famous cathedral, translated as St.Basil's, in the original Vasily Blazhenny -- Vasily the Holy Fool:

 

 

Oh, and of course there was treatment when human communities were shamanic. The shaman journeyed to the other realms in search of the lost spirit and retrieved it. In case of success (even today such cases are being documented, despite a drastic shortage of fully fledged and adequately trained shamans), the person was cured, not "managed."

Yes, "a danger to themselves or others" is an important threshold.

[Taomeow]

Yes, "a danger to themselves or others" is an important threshold.

 

Which is unfortunately crossed in either direction when one of those drugs in current use is administered, and there's enough evidence to suspect that the push toward more danger to themselves or others rather than less in people put on those is not uncommon.  I don't think there's been even one mass shooting in this country where prescription medications were not involved.  Some people become dangerous while taking them, others become dangerous when they stop taking them after having been taking them (the damage is often permanent so both medication and withdrawal from medication can trigger outbursts of dangerous behavior).      

 

One seldom noticed downside to medicine as we currently experience it is not just a lack of safe and efficient drugs, but a lack of incentives to develop them.  Take antibiotics, e.g..  Not entirely safe, but at least efficient toward curing (not "managing") illness -- until more and more resistant strains which, as people in the know predict, will overwhelm the field in a very short while, a decade or so, give or take, with scarcely any antibiotics currently used still remaining efficient at all once the bugs catch up, as they always do.  Seems to be a good time to develop new antibiotics, right?  Well, pharmaceutical companies are not interested.  You take an antibiotic for an infection for five to seven days, if it's working, it's going to do the job, and then what?  Where's the megaprofits from putting someone (hundreds of millions of "someones") on a drug that must be taken daily for the rest of their life?..  That's where all the "research" goes.  Into drugs you can't get off from.  The best sellers... 

 

If there was research as massive into the best-performing psychiatric drugs (or any other kind for that matter) as there currently is into the most profit-generating ones, who knows...  maybe we would have those cures.  But in the current situation, we can't have them.  For anything.     

[cold]

I can't continue to have my cake and eat it too?

My entomology professor said more than 4 decades ago "Always bet on the bug(s) they were here before us and will remain long after we are gone".

 

An argument for taking the profit now...

[3bob]

just in case which bugs are neutral ph ?

[cold]

it all depends...

[3bob]

some stats have been used to reasonably deduce through lots of records as to how many new and "medically" induced cases with  serious, crippling and even deadly outcomes have taken place over various decades after the use of anti-depressant's began...I have some numbers along that line but not right at this moment, it was something like triple after such were introduced!

[liminal_luke]

I know you mean well Brian but:

"chronically mentally ill"  labels and disempowers persons that could be fully or greatly healed through non-destructive methods,  while those with organic brain disease which is not of nor caused by mental/emotional states are in a different category.  That term is more of the propaganda to link mentally/emotionally suffering people with organic problems thus attempting to justify needing chemical treatment for same.  (which generates billions of dollars along with power for certain people over others)

 

You´re taking about the "chronically mentally ill" and "people with organic problems" as if they were separate groups.  I´m not so sure about this distinction.  It seems to me that people with serious ongoing mental difficulties. the kind of difficulties that keep them from living functional lives, have organic brain problems.  Sometimes these problems are more subtle than a bang on the head, but the brains of people who suffer from, say, major depression are different from those who don´t.

 

(I agree with you that non-destructive, non-chemical methods are under-utilized and often powerful.)

Edited May 4, 2017 by liminal_luke

[3bob]

L. Luke,

From what I've studied there is definite and indisputable evidence of the separation between "chronically mentally ill" and "organic brain disease".!  Many of the powers that be in psychiatry would have us believe otherwise and they have been desperately trying to prove so for many decades without actually doing so - and there is reams of detailed data with observations and analysis to back that up - (in earlier said book)  Now a big catch to this is the induction and causation of organic brain disease by chemically blunting or melting the connections to the frontal cortex with anti-depressant's  and then the powers that be saying or pointing to such brains damaged by those means as their proof for an organic condition. !  (which should scare the hell out of everyone)  Anyway those with organic brain diseases are in a whole other realm of causation with very little or no correlation to those suffering from mental and emotional problems. 

Edited May 4, 2017 by 3bob

[silent thunder]

For me, treatment and addressing of mental health all hinges on this one premise of 'do no harm'.  When harm is done, we must act and isolate and stop this behavior and use all energy to heal as best we are able.  I hold that the best we can do now, is not the best we are able to do, nor the best we will be doing in the future.

 

As I relate to it, having high functioning adults in my direct family who are formally, clinically diagnosed and treated as mentally disabled and impaired; so much of what is culturally and scientifically deemed and ostracized and treated as mentally ill in our culture, is guilty in my experience of nothing more than having manners of expressing consciousness that lie outside the parameters of what makes 'most people feel comfortable'. 

 

How many tribal shaman's could likely pass a three day institutional eval?  And yet, they were central to spiritual and healing life for untold eons in our cultural past and (in my opinion) without them, none of our modern day institutions would likely even exist. 

 

Western society in its all out sprint in pursuit of and near complete embracing of left brain achievable and measurable success and safety, has all but imprisoned, ostracized and sanctioned against any consciousness other than logical, progressive left brain materialism as useless at best and at worst, criminally unacceptable.

 

edit:add an omitted word to first sentence

Edited May 4, 2017 by silent thunder

[Geof Nanto]

Before modern day drugs they had no drugs so called medication,and the result was to build large institution where you could live,had to live,as society at the time of say 100 years ago was intolerant of the mentally ill.

So they created the asylum,large institutions of long term stay housing 600 to 1000 inpatients,for the worst of uncontrollable behaviours all they had were cells,padded or otherwise.

Most if not all of these institutions are now closed because in the 1950's someone crack it with the use of these drugs.

Few or any of these people got healed through using any other method.

And they tried everything.

Today's psych drugs still have potential for side effects,much less so as they are improving all the time.

No I agree that's not perfect,but it does offer respite from madness.

 

PS:Does anyone know what a ha ha wall is?

 

"One in six Americans now takes a psychiatric drug, such as an antidepressant or a sedative, according to a recent report."

 

Thanks for the topic Bob. Obviously there's no simple solution, but from my observation the drug approach is scandalously overdone.  Actual brain disease is rare; mostly it's emotional / spiritual disharmony that the medical profession tries to treat chemically. However the reasons for this are complex and I don't condemn anyone who genuinely tries to help no matter what approach they use. 

 

It's a myth though that psychiatric drugs are improving. Even the medical profession admits this...

 

Psychiatric drugs haven’t improved for decades. 

[liminal_luke]

Those who are interested in non-pharmaceutical approaches to depression, might like to know about Dr. Kelly Brogan.  http://kellybroganmd.com/.  She´s a holistic psychiatrist in NYC who practices entirely without prescribing medication.  Her book, A mind of Your Own, outlines the lifestyle recommendations she uses with patients to recover from depression and other mental illnesses.

 

Edited May 5, 2017 by liminal_luke

[AussieTrees]

Does anyone know what a ha ha wall is?

 

The old style asylum were grand buildings,with extensive gardens with large oak trees lining the road leading to main buildings and wards,each Ward generally had an open area where inpatients would be offered the access to the outdoors,the court yards were often sloping downwards to the substantial brick fence often over 15-20foot high at the bottom of the slope.

On the other side of the brick wall was only 3-4 foot in height,so it was easy to look into the court yards from the outside,but from the inside the wall was high.

Anyway the term 'haha wall'was coined after many of those viewing the courtyards from the outside were seen to point at the mentally ill person behaving in an odd manner and laugh.

[AussieTrees]

The story goes something like,Jackie (not his real name)a 'chinaman'was admitted to a psychiatric asylum back in the 1930's,well in those days this asylum was run more like a farm,diary cows pigs raised for slaughter,veggies grown to supply the hospital kitchens,all worked by the unpaid labor of those people's deemed mentally ill and committed to the institution.

 

Well Jackie improved and was seen to be natural gardener,growing perfect vegetables in the year before he managed to escape,freedom.Sadly Jackie was returned to the asylum after only a few days,and was once again put to work in the veggie garden.

 

Jackie worked and lived within the asylum and remained a keen gardener,producing consistent vegetable crops for the next five years.Until an interpreter happened by chance talk with Jackie.It was then they realised,that this person Jackie who had escaped,had indeed escaped,because the Jackie who grew veggies for five years was someone else,yes he was also a 'chinaman'but his name was Chan.