Do these practices lead to Demonic Possession?

[yondaime109]

  I have not started this thread to  argue or attack any belief systems, I'm genuinely seeking answers to this topic. I've encountered a huge stumbling block in my practices, that is the belief in the possibility that the Fundamentalist Christian worldview is correct after all and these esoteric practices will lead to eternal damnation. 

 

 

Here are a few reasons why I've considered this:

1. The tens of thousands of ex new agers/Occultist who've claimed to end intense negative spiritual experiences (Alien abductions as well) by crying out to jesus name.

2. Most NDE experiences seem to result in people becoming christians rather than any other faith around.

3. Entities during DMT/Acid/LSD trips have been claimed numerous times to get hostile and angry when you ask them if jesus is lord. 

4. supposed esp abilities disappearing after exorcisms.

5. The secular media's crackdown on abrahamic religions in preference to more secular new age hippe love paradigms.

 

there's a few more, But I'd like to start with these. This is the pink elephant in the room and i think it should definitely be addressed.

[thelerner]

Well, imo, the phenomena you speak of is only in a fraction of a fraction of people.  If you buy into a fundamentalist framework consciously or subconsciously you reap its fruits and problems.  For example what really sets off the need for exorcisms?  Popular movies.  After the movie the Exorcist was a big hit, suddenly a few calls became thousands to the Vatican for the sudden need for them.  Was it a demon invasion? no, popular hysteria, playing out in people's subconscious.   As the movie went away the calls lessened til they went back to normal, til the sequels. 

 

I can't help but think that NDE's are similar.  A book becomes popular, becomes a movie and suddenly people knocked unconscious have visions; and are applauded for them.   The hardcore dig up anecdotal evidence for it, while ignoring (or not looking for) anecdotes that have Buddha or other deities or people in them. 

 

Having been born in the 60's, it's interesting that the 'square' 50s produced the hippies of the 60s.  To my memory the 70s with the advent of wife swapping and free love was way more hippie-like then what's followed since.  I find today's media much more restrained sexually then 70's and 80's.  More drug free then the 90's too.  To most European society the US is pretty Prudish, though overly violent. 

 

If you want to become a Christian Fundamentalist, great, but I wouldn't do it based on exorcisms, alien abductions or NDE's.  Decisions based on fear, will always be suspect. 

 

Going back to the title.. I guess by practices you mean, meditation.. taoism..  Buddhism.  Christianity has a fair share of meditation practices.  It's filled with saints and mystics.  From what I've read the monks in a Christian order are not that far from Buddhists or Zen monks.   One article suggested they are much closer to each other then they are to regular folks of there respective religions. 

 

In other words, meditation is good, physically, mentally, spiritually.  You can find a style that fits your outlook, even if that's holy prayer or chant done wholeheartedly.  Likewise you can study Buddhism or Taoism for there philosophical brilliance in how they view the world.  Then go back in 2000 years of Christian history and find similar words in the mouths of Christians mystics.  They're there, but in the other traditions they're the main points, not semi-lost side tracks.

 

Studying the philosophies of other traditions does not make you.. impure or make you change your religion, rather it gives you a little more wisdom and allows you to go deeper into your own to find its connections to universal truths. 

 

I will add those who are emotionally sensitive and go into meditations that move internal energy without being grounded and in a state of equanimity and do too much, too soon, can end up with things getting strange and bad.  Though often simply stopping the practice will get the person back to normal. 

[dwai]

Anything "fundamentalist" implies a closed mind. A mind that has already decided what is right and what is wrong. Such a mind cannot be liberated from dualism or from the world of appearances.

 

Such a mind can only imagine to know God.

 

In order to know God, to feel the presence, one has to let go of positions of this and that, good and bad, right and wrong. To be here now is the way to become present. To become present is the way to know God.

[Aetherous]

Who knows!

There is definitely a lot in the occult world (both genuine and newage) that can bring harm.

If you're worried from a Christian point of view, you can look at the bible and read what it instructs to do and not do. For instance, some of the occult has to do with attempting necromancy...which is something the bible is opposed to. It's opposed to the interpretation of omens, but on the other hand is in favor of receiving messages in dreams. So knowing what it says could help bring some clarity as to whether your practices are okay or not. It's very good to read and become informed on the entire bible, if for nothing else than to know the truth about what it says so as to not be misled by either fundamentalists or atheists.

Helping others (especially the helpless) without taking any reward, striving to be a good person and to not view oneself as better than anyone...these are positive methods of spirituality.

What is the truth, which we can know apart from adhering to a belief? How do we discover this immutable truth and not be fooled by any mere belief? Does anyone really know what is good and bad, so as to know what to avoid, or are these things taught to us by society? Maybe one way of knowing is by intuition and instinct, while another way is just reasoning regarding our experience...

If you feel like something is pure, and it brings benefits to you, then it is good. If you feel like something is impure, and it brings harm, then it's bad. If it feels pure but brings harm, it's deceptively bad. If it feels impure, but brings benefit...then what about it is making it feel corrupt to your insight?

Helping others without any other intention than caring about them feels pure, and your life is benefited by doing it (as is theirs)...so we know that it's good!

Negative beings definitely recoil at the name of Jesus, and this includes human negative beings. It's not up to anyone else's opinion of Christianity or Jesus, it's up to your own insight and feelings as to what you feel is the truth. And to your reasoning - is feeling that something is true enough to make it universally and eternally true? It's a question only you can answer for yourself.

[words]

everyone interprets reality through the lenses of their beliefs. and that becomes their world. so...

 

1. the power of jesus's name on someone's lips is equivalent to their faith in jesus's name and all that it means for them. someone's faith 'focal point' might be as strong and have a name other than jesus and work as well.

 

2.what's the basis for this statement? the fact that in the christian bubble certain experiences are being interpreted as NDE? same kind of experiences happen outside the christian world too, they are just being interpreted (and ofc managed) differently and thus they won't count as NDE. if you ask the question looking through a biased filter, you'll get a biased answer.

 

3. again, bias. only someone with jesus in mind would ask entities about jesus the lord, no? there is already a set of beliefs there about jesus, what he represents, about a way an entity would react to jesus's name, etc. a trip is just like any other reality, is shaped upon one's beliefs. what one would experience as entities being hostile upon hearing jesus's name, another might experience as darkness dissolving when they think of light or little goblins running when a fairy is summoned. what i mean to say is trips are customized according to one's filters.

 

4. see above. same principle applies. 

 

5. i don't get your point on this one. 

 

Circling back to your initial dilemma, same thing applies. Doubt arose on your path and it takes this form according to your set of beliefs.

 

be at peace, doubt is ever present and natural. the truth of what you are and what your mind knows of it are at odds. they'll always be, because the mind can't grasp it, it can only circle around. there'll always be a sense of it's not quite it in your mind. that's the seed of doubt. mind will take it and weave stories upon it based on what it knows, on what you believe. 

 

the truth is the same, regardless of what one makes out of it. any story about it is as good as another, when you go at the root of it. when in doubt, analyse your intention. where does it come from? fear or love? how does it feel? unifying or separating? it's power driven or harmonizing? 

 

it's the most simple thing. don't go against your heart and you can't go wrong, regardless of the story you buy into. being your best self in any moment has nothing to do with your school of thought, because the inner guidance doesn't come through the mind, it's just being interpreted by it. drop your thoughts and listen to what's left. you'll know what to do.

[MIchael80]

You will not find a real answer to your problem because it is the thinking mind wanting to get rid of your fear. Integrate the fear by fully feeling it and the whole mental story will collapse.

Fear is not a good teacher.

 

best!

[morning dew]

  I have not started this thread to  argue or attack any belief systems, I'm genuinely seeking answers to this topic. I've encountered a huge stumbling block in my practices, that is the belief in the possibility that the Fundamentalist Christian worldview is correct after all and these esoteric practices will lead to eternal damnation.

 

I remember the 80s, as a teenager, hearing this kind of thing about some of my favourite bands (Priest and Maiden), my D&D gaming, meditation, etc. There's already plenty of good advice and comments in this thread, so I'll just recommend watching the first video. If that's not enough, the full version is afterwards.

 

 

 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

Our beliefs, whatever they may be, will always seemingly be confirmed by our experiences, because we attract our experiences by our beliefs in the first place; then we will see what we experience filtered through them, thus reinforcing them.

 

Understanding this, you better choose your beliefs wisely - not just based on your personal experience so far, or the experience of others, but in accordance with your intuition.

 

Everybody needs a belief system. It is the 'software' that our 'hardware' is running on. The antique Christian framework referred to in the OP might still work for some - personally, I find it much too biased and limiting.

 

This is not to say that there is no truth whatsoever behind it. There is metaphysical truth behind every religion, but most people lack the insight and internal experience to read the given symbolism in depth.

[C T]

Having a dualistic mental disposition often leads to oppressive habits, which lead to deceptive actions, which lead to inner conflicts, which lead to unstable imaginings, which lead to reinforcement of oppressive habits... and on and on, the pink elephant dances in the room. Within this cycle of delusion, it is no surprise that notions such as demonic possession rise to the fore. 

 

Case studies of those who experienced symptoms resembling demonic possession have indicated either psychological imbalances and/or habits that have become overly vile, arousing repressive self loathing, anger, hatred and apathy. 

[Zhongyongdaoist]

I have not started this thread to argue or attack any belief systems, I'm genuinely seeking answers to this topic. I've encountered a huge stumbling block in my practices, that is the belief in the possibility that the Fundamentalist Christian worldview is correct after all and these esoteric practices will lead to eternal damnation.

The examples that you cite seem to all point to an origin in Fundamentalist Christian writings, so it is no wonder that they point out examples that support a “Christian” conclusion. Many people here have addressed them in one way or another, so I am going to point out an alternative view for you, that if you think it through may help you get a different perspective on who and what Jesus might have been which would be totally incompatible with fundamentalist ideas about “Jesus”, and if Jesus is not who the fundamentalists say he is, then no notions derived from fundamentalism can be true.

 

Back in the late Seventies I read a book called:

 

Jesus the Magician by Morton Smith

 

which was part of my own research into the problem of “the historical Jesus”, and thought that it was a fascinating view of Jesus, and just as well argued as the books that said that Jesus was a nice young Rabbi whose teachings were distorted by Paul, and the ones that argued that he was a zealot revelutionary, and, well the list goes on, oh, it did include one that argued that he was an allegory for the hallucinogenic Amanita Muscaria mushroom, which by the way ruined that scholar's career, and he was not a minor figure in Biblical scholarship either. Each one of these different portraits of such an important figure took what little we do know and wove totally different and mutually exclusive pictures of Jesus, each one argued very well by scholars, that I reached the conclusion that it would be impossible to tell who or what the historical Jesus really was, though I was pretty sure that he was not a mushroom. I tended to view him, if he actually existed at all, as possibly a religious activist with a background in some form of religious esotericism which could have been magic, like Morton Smith said, or maybe he was an Essene, these are not mutually exclusive by the way, that is how things remained from the mid Eighties until recently when I was looking for internet resources that related to Morton Smith's book, I found this fascinating site:

 

Jesus as a Magician

 

Which is a very well researched and tightly argued doctoral thesis which updates Smith's work and rectifies such criticisms as this:

 

Barry Crawford (Ph.D Vanderbilt University), currently Co-Chair of the Society of Biblical Literature's Consultation on Redescribing Christian Origins, in his 1979 review states that "Smith exhibits an intricate knowledge of the magical papyri, but his ignorance of current Gospel research is abysmal" ( Wikipedia article on Jesus the Magician)

and is one of the most interesting and compelling discussions I have read. After reading it, as far as I was concerned the idea that Jesus was an actual person and that he really did practice magic, became, to me at least, the most likely interpretation of the Gospels, and if so then, as I said earlier, all fundamentalist doctrines  can safely be ignored.

[SeekerOfHealing]

Yes. working with spirits and opening to the spirits will harm you. Jesus even if not existent there is certain beings in christianity which could be consider much more yang then the lower spirits of yin which they will run away.

 

To understand that (christian way) you need to understand doctrine of Palamas. I will quickly give you shortcut of what he said (which is very buddhist by the way). In orthodox christianity there is essence of God and energy of God. Calling name "Jesus" you calling actually energy of God (new age people would call it vibration etc.) which is more yang and this yang energy can transform you and things around. This is also actually basis of GOOD esoteric practice of buddhism. (Mantrayana/Mikkyo)

 

so... yes depends if you are practicing yin or yang arts you will get results to the nature of practice. What you actually quoted are yin practices but those can have actually yang practices inside them too but most of them are just amateur and novices who do not know "sh.t" about those things and just randomly clicks the buttons on the pilot and then cry about it calling Jesus name they find results without understanding the mechanics of it and becomes followers.

 

 

(I studied and practices christian/catholic/orthodox classics and read them too just in case someone would like to get into convo with me)

Edited May 7, 2017 by SeekerOfHealing

[shazlor]

1. The tens of thousands of ex new agers/Occultist who've claimed to end intense negative spiritual experiences (Alien abductions as well) by crying out to jesus name.

 

I wonder if by embodying the energetic frequency of Jesus' name,

I ponder if one's capable of projecting astral bolts of Zeus' fame?

 

"Do you know how to write? Do you know how to read?
 Do you know how to tint? Do you know how to try? 
Do you know how to ask? Do you know how to offer?
 Do you know how to send? Do you know how to slaughter?

 

A tenth as well; if malicious little witches I see

At play up in the air,

I work it so their way they lose,

Their hamas they lose, their homes can’t find.

 

(I know a tenth:

If troublesome ghosts

Ride the rafters aloft,

I can work it so they wander astray,

Unable to find their forms,

Unable to find their homes.)

"

 

Listen to this radio show about the Tchoa-Tchoa (spelling) considered to be Asian pygmies and malevolent fae for a compass bearing on the amplification of the 'alien' and 'negative spirit' psy-op phenomena... information on them is quite hard to come by.. The topic is discussed at 1hour 25minutes through to the end of the broadcast. He talks about them in more detail on other transmissions and interviews.

Happy hunting.

https://youtu.be/nHFBuqZiLxA

 

Truth is indeed stranger than fiction.... And the world is a small place....

 

"“There are two classes of fairies, the Dundonians, that are like ourselves, and another race, more wicked and more spiteful.” So says the west Irish peasant. The Maori has their counterparts, the fairy woodsman and the fierce malevolent Maero."

 

Believe it or don't, it is up to you - my source is one you will not find anywhere on the internet.

Some of the stories hold truth, though most are full of fallacies and outright imaginative dramatisation.

Patupaiarehe are not extinct, but there are few left. They avoid humans through distrust. They are a peaceful race, and they were attacked with no provocation. Humans have only gotten more warlike in their eyes and they want little to nothing to do with us. Although some rare few may still be able to approach and communicate, I wouldn't advise it. If you see one and it doesn't flee, do not approach. Wait until they either approach or leave. Avoid aggression at all cost. They have learned to protect themselves in manners we could not fathom.

 

Although they do not originate from New Zealand, they were the first settlers that could be classed as even somewhat human, though they are not human, they are one of the many Fae races - one of the oldest (YouTube 'New Zealand skeletons in the closet' for a segment where an archaeologist had 4ft 'human' remains dnanalyzed- same genetics as people in Wales 3,500 b.c... Hmmmm. The whole operation was closed and all findings locked away until 2063) and they still have their power.

 

Those who arrived in New Zealand, the ones now known as Maori, were not so originally. They were Polynesian; when Patupaiarehe and the Polynesian humans mated, they created Maori. Maori can be considered half human, half Fae.

 

I an told that not all Maori as we know them now are Maori to Patupaiarehe. Patupaiarehe only consider those who share their bloodline (no matter how little of that blood is there) to be true Maori. The rest, to them are still considered Polynesian.

 

This is all I Have been told, as it is all I am allowed to share.

 

I hope this may help some of you in further understanding, and in the case you chance a physical encounter or become lucid to your subconscious dream intrusions.

[shazlor]

P.S

 

[Jonesboy]

I have not started this thread to  argue or attack any belief systems, I'm genuinely seeking answers to this topic. I've encountered a huge stumbling block in my practices, that is the belief in the possibility that the Fundamentalist Christian worldview is correct after all and these esoteric practices will lead to eternal damnation. 

 

 

Here are a few reasons why I've considered this:

1. The tens of thousands of ex new agers/Occultist who've claimed to end intense negative spiritual experiences (Alien abductions as well) by crying out to jesus name.

Very cool, I would say the same thing has happened when calling out Buddhist deities as well.

 

2. Most NDE experiences seem to result in people becoming christians rather than any other faith around.

I would bet that most of that reporting is from western christian countries. Have you ever researched the results from NDE in Buddhist countries?

 

3

. Entities during DMT/Acid/LSD trips have been claimed numerous times to get hostile and angry when you ask them if jesus is lord.

Calling any being of the light especially one like Jesus would upset them. Makes sense.

 

4. supposed esp abilities disappearing after exorcisms.

Yes, a demon can enhance such abilities which would lead the person to desire them. Hence feeding the demon you could say. The abilities themselves are not bad and with continued depth the person could realize them without the demon presence.

 

5. The secular media's crackdown on abrahamic religions in preference to more secular new age hippe love paradigms.

New Age hippie love is basic teachings of Jesus without the church.. Love everyone man The secular media isn't about hippie love it is more anti religion in general.

 

there's a few more, But I'd like to start with these. This is the pink elephant in the room and i think it should definitely be addressed.

All the best,

 

Tom

Edited May 7, 2017 by Jonesboy

[wstein]

First most of these don't even suggest Demonic encounters let alone Possession.

 1. The tens of thousands of ex new agers/Occultist who've claimed to end intense negative spiritual experiences (Alien abductions as well) by crying out to jesus name.

 

This might suggest that Jesus is a 'way' towards relieving/avoiding 'negative spiritual experiences'. That in no way suggests the new ager or occult practices led to those 'negative spiritual experiences' in the first place.

 

When people get in trouble, they tend to call out to anyone/anything they think might help. As Jesus is widely touted to help in such situations, its not surprising they invoke his name. I would bet that in non-Christian parts of the world the cries are to the local gods.

2. Most NDE experiences seem to result in people becoming christians rather than any other faith around.

This is pretty much like 1. A lot of people don't believe there is anything more than the physical existence. An NDE strongly suggests they have been completely naive. As such they panic and call out for immediate help to anyone they think might provide it.

3. Entities during DMT/Acid/LSD trips have been claimed numerous times to get hostile and angry when you ask them if jesus is lord.

Entities tend to get hostile when anyone tries to cast them out. In fact most animals get hostile if you try to separate them from their food or their homes. Clearly you have not seen an exorcism done without enlisting Jesus. They are quite common in many parts of the world.

 4. supposed esp abilities disappearing after exorcisms.

Many people couldn't distinguish a vision from esp from telepathic intrusion. Entities are known to impart images in people minds (usually during dreams) as a means to bypass the normal protections and gain entry. Probably a few of the esp experience are actually 'borrowed' from possessing entities. More likely the ceasing of 'esp' is either no more manipulation by the entity or a self protection mechanism to avoid anything associated with their traumatic experience. It would not matter if esp had nothing to do with the original possession, only that it was similar in presentation.

5. The secular media's crackdown on abrahamic religions in preference to more secular new age hippe love paradigms.

What???

 

I would also like you to clarify what you mean by 'Demonic'. Most Christian religions lump all unapproved of practices as 'Demonic'.

[RiverSnake]

Jesus is a lovely fella, but he's still one Being in an entire ecosystem of varying consciousnesses. If your interested in spiritual growth why not just say a prayer to Jesus or perhaps and Angel to shine some light on this area of life for you? 

 

Here's a few books on ancient Christian magick. Study it, your religion has gone through many phases and shifts throughout the last 2,000 years and is still going through changes....it's important to be well rounded in your understanding of the religion you say you belong to. 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Christian-Magic-Coptic-Ritual/dp/0691004587/ref=pd_sim_14_3?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=0691004587&pd_rd_r=6K89AESJK16WK7QMNK6T&pd_rd_w=v0ZYO&pd_rd_wg=upeHs&psc=1&refRID=6K89AESJK16WK7QMNK6T

 

https://www.amazon.com/Magic-Christianity-Gnostics-Robert-Conner/dp/1906958610/ref=pd_sim_14_29?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=1906958610&pd_rd_r=P463XVXPVMX3F7T7PEN5&pd_rd_w=kJqE1&pd_rd_wg=cpfQp&psc=1&refRID=P463XVXPVMX3F7T7PEN5

Edited May 8, 2017 by OldSaint

[doc benway]

There's a perspective from which all the gods and demons, heavens and hells, and the one concerned with them are liberated. It is not the only perspective but lies at the core of Christianity and other traditions. If your intent is sincere and you look inward with patience and honesty, you will find your answers. Transcend the institutional attempts to control your search, they are mostly concerned with political and economic power.

[allinone]

christianity is brought in and spread by crusaders; native songs, myths are banned. So yes if you mention Jesus name it evokes hate.

 

Christiantiy will be destroyed by primordial darkness/ignorance. And by now already believers are gossiping and dancing, basically the way to pass time in churches, church meaning is just a house.

 

Its science what saves. But then again peeps uses fruits of science, these dam. sons of crusaders, invaders and colonists.

Edited May 10, 2017 by allinone

[Mandrake]

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/32579-eastern-philosophical-arts-practices-are-satanic/

 

You basically asked the same question in 2013.

 

As for an answer, lot's of people have given great input, but if you're not willing to engage in trying out different viewpoints, are you really asking for feedback or are you trying to instill doubt in others?

 

A question can be missionary work too.

 

 

M

 

 

 

Edit: Accidentally hit enter before finished.

Edited May 12, 2017 by Mandrake

[Fa Xin]

I say. Run as far away from that fear based paradigm if you want peace of mind.

 

Seeing demons in everything will make you a very intolerant and closed person.

 

Jesus had the right idea but his message was corrupted through many years of wielding it as a weapon against the people.

 

The only answers you need are within yourself. Om

[morning dew]

I say. Run as far away from that fear based paradigm if you want peace of mind.

 

Seeing demons in everything will make you a very intolerant and closed person.

 

Yeah, this is another classic video of that mindset.

 

[Aetherous]

I say. Run as far away from that fear based paradigm if you want peace of mind.

 

Seeing demons in everything will make you a very intolerant and closed person.

 

Jesus had the right idea but his message was corrupted through many years of wielding it as a weapon against the people.

 

The only answers you need are within yourself. Om

 

What you're saying is hilarious, because Jesus actually dealt with demons...

[Fa Xin]

What you're saying is hilarious, because Jesus actually dealt with demons...

Im glad you found it funny ! I do aim to please

 

There's a big difference between Jesus casting out real demons

 

And believing that every one else's spiritual practices are evil / open you up to demonic influences / don't work in defending against evil.

 

I grew up in a similar mindset community, I'm very aware of the fear and bias. In fact I was told at a young age in Sunday school that the "universal oneness is a false concept." I was about 13 at the time and reading the Dao de Ching. That was "my" truth so I naturally felt a disconnect.

 

It's a great topic though.

Edited May 13, 2017 by Fa Xin

[thelerner]

Im glad you found it funny ! I do aim to please

 

There's a big difference between Jesus casting out real demons

 

And believing that every one else's spiritual practices are evil / open you up to demonic influences / don't work in defending against evil.

 

I grew up in a similar mindset community, I'm very aware of the fear and bias. In fact I was told at a young age in Sunday school that the "universal oneness is a false concept." I was about 13 at the time and reading the Dao de Ching. That was "my" truth so I naturally felt a disconnect.

 

It's a great topic though.

While I like the sentiment expressed.  Maybe there's not much difference.  In that 2000 years ago was a very superstitious time, undoubtedly many bad things back then were considered caused by devils, certainly the preponderance of any kind of mental disease.  If you're trying to start a new religion you need a little more then a martyred holy man, you need miracles, lots of them, probably wouldn't hurt to throw in what Caesar and Plato reputedly had, ie virgin birth. 

 

I rather live in a world that followed more of Jesus's teachings and disregarded any divinity claims then what developed. 

[Fa Xin]

I guess the question becomes... if an interaction with said entity is beneficial, should we undertake it? Even if they're not "divine".

 

Many people aren't the most savory, yet we interact and trade/work with them.

 

Then again there's the issue of submission. We don't open our house to these shady characters.

 

Also, how do we recognize the signs of demons and how they work? Purely curiousity here. I think it would be beneficial for us, as seekers, to know.

Edited May 14, 2017 by Fa Xin