Avidya Lesha - Subtle ignorance needed for a jivanamukta to operate in the dualistic world

[dwai]

There have been conversations about "enlightenment" and how and whether a truly liberated jivanamukta (freed from cycle of reincarnation while in living body) can function in the world.

 

http://www.advaitin.net/Subrahmanian/Avidya_lesha.pdf

 

 

Quoting a part of the larger pdf linked to in this post...

 

 

Though sublated, nonetheless, illusory ignorance, does persist, for some time,that is, till the fall of the jnAni’s body. How? Like the erroneous vision of two moons persisting briefly even after the eye-disease, timira, responsible for the erroneous vision, is cured. Why does mithyAjnAna persist even after it is sublated? Because of samskAra, impression 

 

That which accounts for the functioning of a jivanmukta is called avidya-lesha,the trace of avidya, avidyaa-gandha, the tinge of ignorance, etc. It is neither avidyaa nor is it any part thereof. 

 

For how can one contest the fact of another possessing the knowledge of Brahman – vouched for by his heart’s conviction – and at the same time continuing with the body? 

0.  

Those actions which have started yielding results, and those by which the body of the man of Knowledge has been molded, get exhausted ONLY THRU EXPERIENCING THEM, just as an arrow etc. that has gathered momentum after being shot towards a target, stops only with the exhaustion of its momentum, and not because it has no purpose to serve at the time it pierces the target. Similar is the case here. ....Therefore, as in the case of an arrow that has been shot, the experiencing of the results of actions that have become active is INEVITABLE for the man of Knowledge, even though there is no need of his living etc. Hence, what has been said that, ‘His delay is for that long...’ is reasonable. Therefore the criticisms that were advanced are illogical. 

Edited May 8, 2017 by dwai

[neti neti]

Question: I see you doing things. How can you say that you never perform actions?

Sri Ramana Maharshi: The radio sings and speaks, but if you open it you will find no one inside. Similarly, my existence is like the space; though this body speaks like the radio, there is no one inside as a doer.

 

Question: I find this hard to understand. Could you please elaborate on this?

Sri Ramana Maharshi: Various illustrations are given in books to enable us to understand how the jnani can live and act without the mind, although living and acting require the use of the mind.

The potter’s wheel goes on turning round even after the potter has ceased to turn it because the pot is finished. In the same way, the electric fan goes on revolving for some minutes after we switch off the current.

Prarabdha (predestined Karma) which created the body will make it go through whatever activities it was meant for.

But the jnani goes through all these activities without the notion that he is the doer of them. It is hard to understand how this is possible. The illustration generally given is that the jnani performs actions in some such way as a child that is roused from sleep to eat eats but does not remember next morning that it ate.

 

It has to be remembered that all these explanations are not for the jnani. He knows and has no doubts. He knows that he is not the body and he knows that he is not doing anything even though his body may be engaged in some activity. These explanations are for the onlookers who think of the jnani as one with a body and cannot help identifying him with his body.

Edited July 11, 2017 by neti neti

[neti neti]

http://www.yogamag.net/archives/2009/bfeb09/jivan.shtml

 

Quote

A perfectly balanced mind

Now, mark the nature of the mind of a jivanmukta. It is perfectly balanced under all circumstances. It is always cool and unaffected by the pairs of opposites. It is free from elation and depression. It is neither elated by enjoyments nor depressed by sorrow and grief. Without being affected by the pleasures or pains of enjoyments though moving in them, the mind of a jivanmukta becomes inured to them. Through internal contentment and freedom from pain, there will arise in the jnani equanimity of mind in all circumstances and at all places. Even when pain and the rest attaching themselves to his body exhibit on his face, his mind never writhes under them or their antithesis. It is free from impure desires. There will be no anger or craving. There will not arise any impulse of lust in such a mind. There is not the least longing for objects. His mind is above worldly things. He is not affected by the world. He need not have a separate room or seat. He need not close the eyes. He need not practise sense withdrawal. Such a mind which, though apparently enjoying the diverse objects, does not in reality enjoy them, may be stated to be Brahman itself.

Dual consciousness

An occultist learns through self-control and discipline to work on two planes at once: to be partly out of his body even as he is working on the physical plane, so that while he is writing or speaking, he may be doing other things with his astral body. When such is the case with an occultist, little need be said of a full-blown jnani who is resting in his own swarupa, essential nature. A jnani has dual consciousness. He has consciousness of Brahman as well as of the world. He sees the world as a dream within himself. A jnani is always in samadhi. There is no ‘in samadhi’ and ‘out of samadhi’ for a jnani like that for a raja yogi.

When you play on the harmonium, you adjust the tune first. It may be fixed either on the second reed or the fourth reed according to the strength and power of your voice. Then you begin to play on the various reeds. The sapta swara, seven notes, are pronounced now. You can play the various ragas and raginis. He who is aware of the main shruti, musical note, can be compared to a jnani who knows the atman or the support for this universe. He who is aware of the sapta swara only without knowing the fundamental shruti is like an ajnani who is unaware of the atman, and has knowledge of the sense objects only.

When you see an object with your eyes, you know that it is through the light of the sun that you are able to see it. You have a double drishti, vision. Similarly, a jnani always has a double drishti when he performs worldly activities. Even when he works, he knows he is not working; he is unattached. Even though he sees the world, it is all Brahman and Brahman for him.

 

Edited July 12, 2017 by neti neti

[s1va]

On 5/8/2017 at 5:19 PM, dwai said:

Quote

Those actions which have started yielding results, and those by which the body of the man of Knowledge has been molded, get exhausted ONLY THRU EXPERIENCING THEM, just as an arrow etc. that has gathered momentum after being shot towards a target, stops only with the exhaustion of its momentum, and not because it has no purpose to serve at the time it pierces the target. Similar is the case here. ....Therefore, as in the case of an arrow that has been shot, the experiencing of the results of actions that have become active is INEVITABLE for the man of Knowledge, even though there is no need of his living etc. Hence, what has been said that, ‘His delay is for that long...’ is reasonable. Therefore the criticisms that were advanced are illogical. 

 

 

In this example the actions that started yielding results sound like prarabdha karma.  If a jivanmuktha performs actions with this subtle ignorance (or for any reason), such actions will have ripple effect like any other actions setting forth cause and effect for others.  He may be free from not creating any more impressions.  What about the effect of his actions on others?

 

(I am assuming there are others since the quote talks about actions and results, etc., sounds like there is more than one ) 

[dwai]

7 minutes ago, kāvēri said:

 

In this example the actions that started yielding results sound like prarabdha karma.  If a jivanmuktha performs actions with this subtle ignorance (or for any reason), such actions will have ripple effect like any other actions setting forth cause and effect for others.  He may be free from not creating any more impressions.  What about the effect of his actions on others?

 

(I am assuming there are others since the quote talks about actions and results, etc., sounds like there is more than one ) 

The others are also projections of that One Consciousness.

[Jonesboy]

That's if you believe in One Consciousness

[s1va]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

The others are also projections of that One Consciousness.

 

Assuming it is One Consciousness projected., there still seems to be a gap.  The projection has many and it seems to be governed by some rules, like gravity or cause and effect.  In the projection, his actions still has impact on the others.  Unless we can write off the entire projection as illusion.

 

If we can write it off as illusion, then there is no need for the jivanmukta to show compassion, or help others.  When I realize in a dream that I am dreaming, yes I can continue and play along on the dream, but who else is there for me to help wake up?   Yet, we see jivanmuktas doing everything they can to help others attain that state.   Why should Ramana Maharishi tell others to question who they are?  

[dwai]

3 hours ago, kāvēri said:

 

Assuming it is One Consciousness projected., there still seems to be a gap.  The projection has many and it seems to be governed by some rules, like gravity or cause and effect.  In the projection, his actions still has impact on the others.  Unless we can write off the entire projection as illusion.

 

If we can write it off as illusion, then there is no need for the jivanmukta to show compassion, or help others.  When I realize in a dream that I am dreaming, yes I can continue and play along on the dream, but who else is there for me to help wake up?   Yet, we see jivanmuktas doing everything they can to help others attain that state.   Why should Ramana Maharishi tell others to question who they are?  

RM only told others to ask who they are if they asked for "methods". For many methods were not necessary and in his silent presence  they came to awaken.

we need to do shravana-manana-nidhidhyasana all the time until the truth becomes constantly apparent. 

[neti neti]

Quote

Question: What is the exact difference between worldly activity and dhyana?

Ramana Maharshi: There is no difference. It is like naming one and the same thing by two different words in two different languages.

 

The crow has two eyes but only one iris which is rolled into either eye as it pleases. The trunk of an elephant is used for breathing and for drinking water. The snake sees and hears with the same organ.

 

[Nothingness]

This is spot on. There has to be ignorance for a person to be dreaming right? 

 

Now this makes a lot of confusion regarding things like Manonasa, where the absolute dissolution of the mind happens, yet the body mind of that person doesn't die. 

 

For whom doesn't it die? 

Edited August 20, 2017 by Nothingness