The prison of beliefs.

[Shad282]

(A thread to share some thoughts not to argue)

 

No matter how much people get deep into spirituality, they always remain in prison. A prison that might be wider than non-spiritual people but it remains a prison.

 

Whether a daoist, buddhist, sufi, christian, astral, light...etc. Each has its own custom prison, size may change, but remains a prison.

 

A prison that is made of beliefs. beliefs that sound liberating, wise, sometimes true but they remain Beliefs.

 

Belief may help us to see a truth but only its truth and nothing else. They are like the bars of the prison, one after the other blocking us from seeing the whole truth and what is beyond them.

 

Coming from a small prison to a bigger one, may feel liberating, freedom but for how long? And what is beyond that?

 

Are you ready to drop your beliefs?

Edited May 8, 2017 by Shad282

[Michael Sternbach]

Do you think it's possible to be entirely without beliefs?

[Marblehead]

Nice concept to speak to.

 

I try to be a "show and tell" kind of guy but I must admit that I have my set of beliefs and they are the roots of my set of values.

 

While we may be imprisoned I think we will find that the door isn't locked so we can escape any time we wish or have cause to escape.

[rene]

Do you think it's possible to be entirely without beliefs?

It must be; I am.

 

Even Dao is just an idea. (-:

 

warm greetings

[Brian]

Do you think it's possible to be entirely without beliefs?

I believe it is.

[silent thunder]

I believe it is.

I just snorted...

[C T]

Relatively, beliefs can help expedite and clarify one's path. 

 

Ultimately, the nature of beliefs are akin to vapour, or clouds, or smoke - though seemingly appearing

Yet beyond mere appearances, all beliefs are ephemeral and ever-changing.

 

Know that relative and ultimate are not two, and not one either 

Each arise in relation to the other. 

 

Likewise, the illusion of imprisonment

arise in relation to tendencies of clinging and aversion only.

 

Free of clinging and aversion 

One is free of all positions. 

 

Vast is the mind

No prison can contain it. 

[Geof Nanto]

I'll stick with the relative. One person compared to another person can be held more or less captive by their beliefs. So much of what we believe (take for granted) is subconscious.  I suspect we are all blind to our most fundamental beliefs in that we think of them as reality. 

 

Moral beliefs come to mind; belief in what is right and what is wrong. At some basic level these are bedrock beliefs for most all of us.  As an extreme example, a person without beliefs would have no opinion on whether the rape of a small child is right or wrong. 

[rene]

Yueya, you are right! Thanks for showing me my error; I thought I might be right but I was wrong. (-:

[Jonesboy]

(A thread to share some thoughts not to argue)

No matter how much people get deep into spirituality, they always remain in prison. A prison that might be wider than non-spiritual people but it remains a prison.

Whether a daoist, buddhist, sufi, christian, astral, light...etc. Each has its own custom prison, size may change, but remains a prison.

A prison that is made of beliefs. beliefs that sound liberating, wise, sometimes true but they remain Beliefs.

Belief may help us to see a truth but only its truth and nothing else. They are like the bars of the prison, one after the other blocking us from seeing the whole truth and what is beyond them.

Coming from a small prison to a bigger one, may feel liberating, freedom but for how long? And what is beyond that?

Are you ready to drop your beliefs?

Isn't this a belief?

 

Beyond I would say is being and the ability to share that which is beyond thought.

[C T]

 

As an extreme example, a person without beliefs would have no opinion on whether the rape of a small child is right or wrong. 

 

And what should a person with beliefs do chancing upon one who has (allegedly) raped a small child? 

[Spotless]

No belief is necessary - and one without belief would be no more inclined to do harm than another - in fact they would be radically less inclined. Belief is a compressed spring always at bay or in action.

 

Belief is the prison - it is position.

 

One can have faith and no belief - and have no suffering - not because of indifference or foolish disregard - in non-belief faith is Presence Known / no effort. Faith in nothing / all and everything.

 

Note -

 

I am using the word faith in an older more traditional sense whereas currently and particularly in the USA - the word Faith has been hijacked: people here often refer to Faith Based groups and the actual meaning very specific to these groups are belief based and frequently fundamentalist belief based.

Edited May 9, 2017 by Spotless

[liminal_luke]

Belief is the prison - it is position.

 

 

I feel intuitively that you´re really on to something, and want to get it -- but I don´t.  How is the statement that "belief is the prison" not itself a belief?  Or is it?  If you don´t have beliefs, well, how do you believe anything?  Maybe faith is like a belief but held really lightly?

 

If your sense of me is that I´d do better just wrestling with this on my own, feel free not to respond.  I don´t mean to bog down in hopeless and unuseful philosophizing.  I just don´t really get it. 

Edited May 9, 2017 by liminal_luke

[C T]

In my opinion, beliefs operate within the limits of the intellect - therein all beliefs are by default subject to biases. 

 

Echoing what Spotless mentioned above regarding authentic faith, i see it as a refined or transcended aspect of belief, where the one who accesses it is has gained intuitive insights and therefore no longer bound within belief's dualistic framework. 

 

Faith is built on trust (in some sense, in the unknown and unknowable, yet accessible thru contemplation and meditation), whereas belief/s are built upon intellectual deductions and assumptions mostly. Not saying one is more superior than the other. Both have merit when approached correctly, and in fact, i see belief as the springboard towards the development of authentic faith, if cultivated with a sense of openness and awareness. 

[Marblehead]

And what should a person with beliefs do chancing upon one who has (allegedly) raped a small child? 

 

Move up their expiration date.

[rene]

Yueya, you are right! Thanks for showing me my error; I thought I might be right but I was wrong. (-:

Well, now I dont know if that^^ is right or wrong, heh. Great points all. (-:

[Spotless]

Beliefs are not limited to creation in the intellect - they are often from emotion - and this may sound odd but often from a level of lust.

Most religion is quite base and considerably twisted.

 

On a higher note - most religions have attraction in the higher emotions based in the pull from the vacuum of spiritless life.

 

The intellect has little to do with choices in life - primarily because knowone is driving - trance is driving. It is the illusion that we are in the drivers seat that makes it epoxied to the addiction to "other".

 

The idea that we do not need belief - that it IS position - is in the "setness" of belief. It is a closed loop which we then fortify with the so called intellect and fires within. Constant repetitious looping and angles of arguement and straw man jibberish - insanity in action.

 

Belief is - Belief IN

It is a glued too position - however lightly.

 

The Faith I speak of is not a light belief - it is not faith IN anything - it is faith unheld.

A knowing in not knowing - an understanding in "no effort" "non-grasping".

 

A belief is of the past - it is past time - it is old the moment it is tied.

 

In ones life consider the striking light of a sunset unexpectedly displayed, the sudden smell of something wonderful - these bring you suddenly to the present - to Presence. There is "Nothing" for a moment but Presence to the present - you are in the only existence that exists - Now. You are gone - for a brief moment the clouds have cleared and you are in ashtonishing Presence - you feel the light in everything. You have not yet labeled it and decided if you believe in it or not - you are not in babble - the mind has not yet hijacked the experience - emotions have not tried to hold it - instinct has not yet craved more of it.

 

Faith is movement within Now. It is stillness within Now.

It is non-grasping. It is being in free fall without fear. Knowing nothing.

Edited May 9, 2017 by Spotless

[Marblehead]

Well, now I dont know if that^^ is right or wrong, heh. Great points all. (-:

 

Get yourself beyond right and wrong.  You know well how to do that.

[Marblehead]

Belief is - Belief IN

 

But I will continue to hold to my belief "of" ...

 

And that is because I find it better to believe in something rather than believing in nothing.  Nihilism follows believing in nothing.

[cold]

I currently believe In-N-Out burgers are very good!

That may change if I get a bad one...

[Michael Sternbach]

Beliefs can imprison you. And they can free you.

[Spotless]

But I will continue to hold to my belief "of" ...

 

And that is because I find it better to believe in something rather than believing in nothing.  Nihilism follows believing in nothing.

Belief is always belief in nothing - it is always in past which does not exist - it is always a belief in illusion.

 

It is always in a sense a fundamentalist trap.

 

It is possible to have all of the perceived assets of Belief without the quagmire of Belief.

Nihilism is as barren as fundamentalism - they are the same.

The Athiest is as much a fundamentalist as a Fundamentalist.

These are all "dead" zones - highly walled off illusory frequencies - however intellectually open or lovingly embraced.

[Spotless]

Beliefs can imprison you. And they can free you.

Belief cannot set you free - but it can free up considerable suffering for a time - which can be invaluable for someone who is in real need of some solace, some break from boxes they have created for themselves. Frequencies of "being" that have played out and are no longer satisfactory (for at least moderately comfortable trance illusion sleep walking).

 

In the larger sense they will not set you free - they will fall away as "you" dies and Presence resides.

 

Belief is nothing other than binding.

Imagine every asset of Belief without the binding - you are then enjoying faith - unbounded faith.

[Jonesboy]

Belief cannot set you free - but it can free up considerable suffering for a time - which can be invaluable for someone who is in real need of some solace, some break from boxes they have created for themselves. Frequencies of "being" that have played out and are no longer satisfactory (for at least moderately comfortable trance illusion sleep walking).

 

In the larger sense they will not set you free - they will fall away as "you" dies and Presence resides.

 

Belief is nothing other than binding.

Imagine every asset of Belief without the binding - you are then enjoying faith - unbounded faith.

Faith is another word for belief.. no matter how rosy you try to make it.

[Spotless]

If you consider that you are a Buddhist then you have conceptualized yourself in past.

If you are a practicing Buddhist you are not A Buddhist.

 

Of course for convenience we may say "I'm Buddhist" and understand the difference.

 

In temple the above can be seen clearly - those in belief and those few in practice - it is stark.