The prison of beliefs.

[Brian]

Cloud based computing needs an internet, a network of computers connected together

Inside that network is set up a virtual reality and everyone who enters that reality needs an account and pays a price

 

Same with any other religion, once you connect with peers with same beliefs they install in you programs so that you become one of their supporters, so that you maintain that reality

Indeed, but the "user" can be blissfully unaware and ignorant of all that happens behind the curtain.

[silent thunder]

One of my favorite sections in my favorite play!

 

Are you familiar with Tom Stoppard's "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead"?

It's one of my favorite plays of all time.  Exquisite!  Genius.  I would love to do it in rep with Hamlet some day.  Same cast, same roles, same sets, alternate days, weekend double bills... ah... love it. 

 

I still bum out a bit when I recall finding out that I was slated to be offered the role of Rosencrantz in an arena production back in my acting days, but was poached by another Director before getting the offer.   The two Directors, both friends of mine had lunch and Nolte, the Director who poached me, falsely told Smucker, the Director of R&G, that I had already committed to his production of Oedipus, when I had heard about neither yet.   Flattering that he'd do that... but I was pissed when I found out.

 

As it played, my very best friend in the biz ended up playing Rosencrantz instead of me and honestly he thrived in that role... I think it worked out for the best.... but man was I pissed.  Interesting... that buddy who played Rosencrantz just opened his own classical theater up in Oregon.  At some point he'll do those plays in rep... we've talked about it often. 

 

Gotta dig that out and reread it now too...

[dawei]

Shady, Nice topic

 

Lots of great comments...   here are mine.

 

We are inescapably tied to belief as long as we're thinking or expressing anything; That is the whole point of DDJ1:1.   IMO, the distinction of 'faith' still falls within the mind of thinking or expressing.   So, if we're in the [prison of the] mind in day to day stuff... belief is in every pore of the body.

 

If we want to define non-doing or non-grasping, that is our mental explanation and thus within expressing and still a prisoner. 

 

IMO, only in the actual state of residing that is beyond mind and thought or expression can we...

 

Indeed, but the "user" can be blissfully unaware and ignorant of all that happens behind the curtain.

 

... get behind the curtain.

 

But to talk of a user and curtain is to be expressing.... 

 

 

The Dao that can be thought or expressed is not the eternal Dao.

 

The mind that is thinking or expressing is not the universal/collective mind.

 

The challenge may be in thinking of Dao on different levels.   But if you truly get that, then just substitute mind and your along the path of true understanding of Dao... of mind.

[Marblehead]

Okay, I have the time now.

Belief is always belief in nothing - it is always in past which does not exist - it is always a belief in illusion.

 

In the most part beliefs are established from past events.  Sure, this is true.  But the beliefs we hold allow us to make the best choices in our life.  As I stated, our beliefs are what our values are based in.  If you have no beliefs then you have no values  That means you would accept any kind of behavior by other upon yourself.  That is nihilism.

It is always in a sense a fundamentalist trap.

 

​No, it is exactly the opposite.  Having beliefs and values is what allows one to be free from oppression. 

It is possible to have all of the perceived assets of Belief without the quagmire of Belief.

 

Our beliefs are what give our life meaning.  Without beliefs there would be no meaning for a person's life.  Again, nihilism.

Nihilism is as barren as fundamentalism - they are the same.

 

That is totally off the wall.  Nihilism is without meaning; fundamentalism is life with meaning, regardless of the validity of the fundamental doctrines.

The Athiest is as much a fundamentalist as a Fundamentalist.

 

You have absolutely no idea what you are saying here.  Atheism is simply the non-acceptance of anything supernatural.  It is a philosophy closer to Taoism than is any other philosophy.

 

These are all "dead" zones - highly walled off illusory frequencies - however intellectually open or lovingly embraced.

 

Your argument is a dead zone because it reflects nothing of reality.  I think you forgot to add any wisdom in this post.  Reality never lies to us.

[Marblehead]

Beliefs need validation; 

Validations stunt faith. 

 

 

Vastly different in terms of scope, and yet simple to see. 

 

Are you sure about that?  I doubt the validity about beliefs needing validation.  In a lot of cases all they need is faith.

 

Beliefs do not need be validated.  But I will agree that validation stunts, or negates, faith.

 

The concept of "blind faith" comes to mind.

[Marblehead]

Indeed, but the "user" can be blissfully unaware and ignorant of all that happens behind the curtain.

 

I've been there, done that.

[roger]

(A thread to share some thoughts not to argue)

 

No matter how much people get deep into spirituality, they always remain in prison. A prison that might be wider than non-spiritual people but it remains a prison.

 

Whether a daoist, buddhist, sufi, christian, astral, light...etc. Each has its own custom prison, size may change, but remains a prison.

 

A prison that is made of beliefs. beliefs that sound liberating, wise, sometimes true but they remain Beliefs.

 

Belief may help us to see a truth but only its truth and nothing else. They are like the bars of the prison, one after the other blocking us from seeing the whole truth and what is beyond them.

 

Coming from a small prison to a bigger one, may feel liberating, freedom but for how long? And what is beyond that?

 

Are you ready to drop your beliefs?

 

 

My feeling is that, if the belief is correct (an idea that is actually true), then it's liberating, not imprisoning.

 

ACIM says that an idea can be, 1. wholly false (a lie) 2. partially true (a "half-truth") 3. wholly true (an "absolute truth").

 

I guess I'm saying, but not with the intention of arguing, that I feel that beliefs can create freedom, or bondage if false.

[words]

Beliefs themselves are not a prison. they are more like...spaces we dwell in. they're like building blocks for reality models that we live in.

 

Holding on to a belief/set of beliefs it's what chains. Instead of freely flowing, one becomes anchored to their belief through their own clinging to it.

 

I don't know if it's possible to be without belief. what i know is that there's no sense of prison if there's no holding on. 

 

going with the first metaphor, a set of beliefs is more like a room than a prison if one doesn't lock themselves in it. they're free at any moment to leave it and enter another room and so on. being imprisoned in a set of beliefs it's a bit like agoraphobia, where the person becomes imprisoned in their own home by their own fear of what's outside.

 

and about the idea that a person without beliefs wouldn't distinguish between right and wrong...beliefs are mind territory. the heart can distinguish and guide just fine without subscribing to any belief.

[C T]

Are you sure about that?  I doubt the validity about beliefs needing validation.  In a lot of cases all they need is faith.

 

Beliefs do not need be validated.  But I will agree that validation stunts, or negates, faith.

 

The concept of "blind faith" comes to mind.

Its like the relationship between you and your chair (your fav analogy, remember?) 

 

Beliefs are basically value-derived. So how can they be separated from the validation process? Its impossible. 

 

The conclusiveness of that process is secondary. 

[Michael Sternbach]

Many beliefs are adopted from parents and teachers already in childhood. They are rarely being examined later.

 

However, beliefs are constantly self-validating due to selective perception. Meaning that data in accordance with one's established beliefs will be accepted more easily than data that contradicts them.

[Stosh]

Everyone may trip over or sit on the chair in a dark room. Its not a matter of selective perception flattering the ego.

I paraphrase a quote I checked up on.

Theres that which the eye sees as favorable , theres that which it sees as unfavorable, and theres the stuff which the eye sees as neither favorable ,nor unfavorable.

So non-dualistic data ,, without validation value, I am thinking , does exist even in buddhist doctrine.

Conditioned things are impermanent, those that are not are dhamma. The chair itself is dhamma. Your opinion on it , as being a chair ,is impermanent.To prove the idea is impermanent, we can call it firewood ,and burn it. To prove its dhamma , try ,and fail, to eat it.Why one cannot eat it, is that it has undeniable properties which are not conducive to being eaten ,regardless of our opinions.

That it will eventually rot, and not continue to exist as a chair, one could describe as impermanent. But this doesnt change the fact , the dhamma ,of the chair now, is inedible , now.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Its like the relationship between you and your chair (your fav analogy, remember?) 

 

Beliefs are basically value-derived. So how can they be separated from the validation process? Its impossible. 

 

The conclusiveness of that process is secondary. 

 

We two may be singing different songs here.

 

Yes, me and my chair..  It started out initially as a belief.  I believed the chair would support my weight.  I have sat on it hundreds of times since that first try.  The chair has always supported my weight.  And it has supported the weight of any one else who sat on it.  It has never failed; not once.  Belief is no longer needed.  It is a given that until something on it breaks it will continue to support my weight.  The belief has become reality.

 

Here's the trick.  Some beliefs have never been supported by a single fact from reality.  But they remain an important part of a person's life for whatever the reason.  A belief, if held blindly, needs no validation.  "I believe it because I want to."

 

And so, millions of people continue to believe in certain concepts even though they have never observed a single fact that supports the belief.  Why?  Because they were told to believe it.  That's all.

[C T]

Everyone may trip over or sit on the chair in a dark room. Its not a matter of selective perception flattering the ego.

I paraphrase a quote I checked up on.

Theres that which the eye sees as favorable , theres that which it sees as unfavorable, and theres the stuff which the eye sees as neither favorable ,nor unfavorable.

So non-dualistic data ,, without validation value, I am thinking , does exist even in buddhist doctrine.

Conditioned things are impermanent, those that are not are dhamma. The chair itself is dhamma. Your opinion on it , as being a chair ,is impermanent.To prove the idea is impermanent, we can call it firewood ,and burn it. To prove its dhamma , try ,and fail, to eat it.Why one cannot eat it, is that it has undeniable properties which are not conducive to being eaten ,regardless of our opinions.

That it will eventually rot, and not continue to exist as a chair, one could describe as impermanent. But this doesnt change the fact , the dhamma ,of the chair now, is inedible , now.

thats only if one sees eating as self-existing, which it is not. So there are primary and secondary conditions that contribute to actions arising. Eating for example. The secondary attributes of a wooden chair can certainly contribute to the eating process. Alternatively, one can sit on a pumpkin too 

[C T]

We two may be singing different songs here.

 

Yes, me and my chair..  It started out initially as a belief.  I believed the chair would support my weight.  I have sat on it hundreds of times since that first try.  The chair has always supported my weight.  And it has supported the weight of any one else who sat on it.  It has never failed; not once.  Belief is no longer needed.  It is a given that until something on it breaks it will continue to support my weight.  The belief has become reality.

 

Here's the trick.  Some beliefs have never been supported by a single fact from reality.  But they remain an important part of a person's life for whatever the reason.  A belief, if held blindly, needs no validation.  "I believe it because I want to."

 

And so, millions of people continue to believe in certain concepts even though they have never observed a single fact that supports the belief.  Why?  Because they were told to believe it.  That's all.

You are alluding to irrational thought processes by mentioning blind beliefs. Akin to superstition. 

 

Those that choose irrational beliefs are still bound by the need for validation, otherwise they would not believe blindly. 

[Stosh]

thats only if one sees eating as self-existing, which it is not. So there are primary and secondary conditions that contribute to actions arising. Eating for example. The secondary attributes of a wooden chair can certainly contribute to the eating process. Alternatively, one can sit on a pumpkin too 

I still have a lot to catch up on, like ,... self existing?         WTF  ?  

[Spotless]

Beliefs are valuations - conceptualizations created in past upon judgement.

 

The sieve through which we matriculate into our frequencies is the net of judgements and confinements and valuations and disregards which holds the strings taught and reactive and in accord. To some life outside this is unthinkable and no arguement will overcome their barriers.

 

I have never put forth that any of this is bad, not part of being human or otherwise - but it is the "prison".

 

And as hard as it is to believe / conceptualize - it is possible to Be otherwise.

 

I am trying to point at that "otherwise" of the Heart.

 

Feel the following:

Belief = non-grasping (Does this feel in any way correct?)

 

Faith = non-grasping. (Does this feel generally correct?)

 

It is self evident that Belief and Faith are not the same.

[Marblehead]

You are alluding to irrational thought processes by mentioning blind beliefs. Akin to superstition. 

 

Those that choose irrational beliefs are still bound by the need for validation, otherwise they would not believe blindly. 

 

We are getting close.  Thanks for a fair discussion.

 

But what you describe as "irrational" is not irrational to the believer.  Yes, akin to superstition.

 

Your last sentence:

 

Their beliefs are validated by others who believe the same thing.  Facts and truth are not needed - only similar acknowledgement.

[Spotless]

It has been said that in order to Awaken or perhaps it was "in order to reach Enlightenment" one must come to hate one's self, ones story, ones life - (something along these lines) - and in a very real sense this is true.

 

One comes eventually to "the baggage" and sees that even the realization / awareness of the baggage brings no relief of it.

We can try to heal it, clean it, re-package it, filter it, paint over it, transform it, heat it, water it, nurture it, logic it, compartmentalize it, re-vision it, forgive it - but at some point we see "doing" IS its cause.

 

At this point some call for surrender - and this is close - but even surrender can be seen as "doing". It's essence is "release".

A shift

Non-grasping

Freefall

Trust

Presence

 

The baggage falls away - the beliefs, the fear, the positions.

 

Absolute truth is always with us - it is intertwined and held in our frequencies (karma) becoming half truths and disfigured fragments which argue against the grain of their origination. One needs no belief to have truth - it is our nature - it is who we are.

 

Without baggage will we still be fully able to function - in a lightness that is astonishing.

[Marblehead]

It has been said that in order to Awaken or perhaps it was "in order to reach Enlightenment" one must come to hate one's self, ones story, ones life - (something along these lines) - and in a very real sense this is true.

 

Hi Spotless,

 

I view this as nihilistic thinking.  Therefore I must declare it invalid.  It is my opinion that one must love one's self.

 

And then I will basically agree with the rest of your post.

 

And yes, "release", not "surrender".

 

Then, after release of all the baggage all that is left is reality.  I like reality even though if messes with me now and then.

[Jeff]

Hi Spotless,

 

I view this as nihilistic thinking.  Therefore I must declare it invalid.  It is my opinion that one must love one's self.

 

And then I will basically agree with the rest of your post.

 

And yes, "release", not "surrender".

 

Then, after release of all the baggage all that is left is reality.  I like reality even though if messes with me now and then.

I think you raise a very good point regarding learning to love oneself. Forgiving oneself and others is the key. With true forgiveness, all of the rest just drops away, leaving the natural love(and light) to shine through.

[Stosh]

It has been said that in order to Awaken or perhaps it was "in order to reach Enlightenment" one must come to hate one's self, ones story, ones life - (something along these lines) - and in a very real sense this is true.

 

I would like to know who made this statement , do you remember? I would like to destroy their construct for them.

[allinone]

when you realize that its ugliness dirtiness to what we are sensually attracted to then there is so much things to adhere. Hell yeah.

[allinone]

I would like to know who made this statement , do you remember? I would like to destroy their construct for them.

 

how familiar are you with Sutras? suffering has to be developed.

[allinone]

I think you raise a very good point regarding learning to love oneself. Forgiving oneself and others is the key. With true forgiveness, all of the rest just drops away, leaving the natural love(and light) to shine through.

 

nope, how you separate that the bad feeling in you is really a bad?

 

edit: better to say its not possible to separate you have to cultivate and see by experience so you have no choice that to be stupid and just accept that you are one.

 

Can i say pls realize that you are utterly ...

Edited May 10, 2017 by allinone

[Jeff]

nope, how you separate that the bad feeling in you is really a bad?

 

edit: better to say its not possible to separate you have to cultivate and see by experience so you have no choice that to be stupid and just accept that you are one.

 

Can i say pls realize that you are utterly ...

There is no separation (or pushing away). One simply "forgives" oneself and the issue/fear drops. The underlying energy that was trapped in the issue/fear (that caused you to keep focusing on it) is freed up.