The prison of beliefs.

[allinone]

Not a real problem.  You were still within linked concepts to the topic.  I can't interact with you because I don't speak the Buddhist language.

 

Sutras is easy, the headline is for the highest level knowers then as you go on to the first sentences it starts elaborate and goes on and on till the less knowledgeable get it too. So there is also Sutra levels as they elaborate each other. Some Sutras are allencompassing that even 4 lines will explain entire Sutra and at the same time can be explained infinetly.

 

basically you need remember only one 4 line gatha and you potentially know everything.

 

There is one Samadhi what cultivates all qualities at the same time.

 

(ask professional Buddhists, i am not buddhist)

Edited May 10, 2017 by allinone

[allinone]

Forgiveness is simply a word describing the letting go of a painful attachment. Forgiveness is more about the absence of subconscious doing, than any doing itself.

 

at some point things aren't muddled, you see things as they are, if i could see pain as what it is it is no pain anymore.

[liminal_luke]

I believe in The Great Pumpkin!

 

And that belief, my friend, has put you in a Great Pumpkin prison.  

[Sudhamma]

The country's legal system is the framework of the law-abiding citizens' prison. Drop that, and you become a menace to society. Similarly, drop your religious beliefs, say, the 10 commandments, or a lesser number, the 5 precepts and go about contravening them, you become a dangerous menace to your community. No need to believe me, try it out by breaking them and see what you will become and how you will be made accountable for your actions.

[Spotless]

The country's legal system is the framework of the law-abiding citizens' prison. Drop that, and you become a menace to society. Similarly, drop your religious beliefs, say, the 10 commandments, or a lesser number, the 5 precepts and go about contravening them, you become a dangerous menace to your community. No need to believe me, try it out by breaking them and see what you will become and how you will be made accountable for your actions.

This is a "straw man" arguement - it is like the arguement that if we allow homosexuals legal rights we will suddenly move on to beastiality. The conversation here is in general with regard to "adhesion in beliefs" in reference to being in the prison of illusion.

 

You are more likely to break laws in the fashion you have suggested by being in the state which you are unknowingly defending.

[Anam]

It's a very good and complicated topic and I have enjoyed reading the back and forth. One thing i have seen over the years is the rush to ''drop story'' or let go of beliefs, as I think this is seen by many as  a fast route to conquering human suffering. And yet I do think (believe? ) we all stick to stories or stories about the dropping of story in one way or another, however subtle.

I think the rush to drop belief (story) before a lot of work is done with the self is most likely premature. In a way the self work is the cultivation of a firmly rooted natural law, so that if ''belief'' is dropped there remains a natural pool of authentic goodness which sustains compassion and mercy and love etc. Otherwise there is the danger of coldness, merciless detachment, etc

In this rush to drop story i see the dark roots of moral relativism. I may be misunderstanding what moral relativism is, but it seems to me to be a forced detachment from what is called reality, where we might say,for example, oh, nothing is good or bad, everything just is, etc., as a demonstration of how we have left the prison of beliefs. How can this be particularly useful?

I don't appreciate moral relativism, I think it is an excuse to turn away from action, because of not being able to bear the amount of suffering in the world that our fellow beings and we ourselves sometimes endure. But it seems more and more common.

I think there is plenty of time before birth and after death to be without 'belief', but while we are here we should probably find a worthwhile position, as close to the truth as we can presently understand. 

 

(Just offering a passing opinion, which is not fully worked out and is subject to change.)

[Marblehead]

And that belief, my friend, has put you in a Great Pumpkin prison.  

 

But I'm not alone.  Charlie Brown is here with me.  Therefore belief is validated.

[Marblehead]

 

(Just offering a passing opinion, which is not fully worked out and is subject to change.)

 

But I think you are on the right path.  Keep walking.

 

That's all I do here, offer my opinions and understands.  I claim no "truths".

 

But my chair is real.

[Stosh]

The dudes who toppled the twin towers , believed in what they were doing was right. The dude who steals a car ,has his justifications, rationalizations. Lz and Cz, felt that the core of people was inherently good on its own, without the social endorsement.

To rely on ones conscience , without the,, escape to justifications , just leaves one with the full burden of what they do.. You dont have to agree with them. I dont know for sure if moral relativism says one is always right or not,,, but their idea they had is not saying you are right , It is taking the imaginary generally held social sanction out of the equasion entirely.

You are not right, to east pasta, according to society, you are not wrong to eat pasta according to society, neither is it right or wrong for anyone else ,based on your opinion either. You either eat it or do not , and consider it to be what you think is the thing you should do. But you can still decide that its stupid for the diabetic person..You make decisions all the time, as it is , that you dont attach moral justifications to.

[dwai]

The idea of tremendous dissatisfaction with ones life as one possible key to Awakening is not new - many great masters have brought this up. "Hating oneself" is hating that which does not exist - no reason to get stuck on the word "hate".

 

Forgiving this false self is an interesting occupation but oddly it is generally more somatic elixir- though it is part and parcel to some of the melting that is required to final exhaustion.

 

Within all the pretty pictures of Awakening and Oneness and Enlightenment - and all the not-understood quotes - we skim over the non-conceptual aspects of our sages and masters - it was not a cake walk.

 

The following quote is from someone that a few of you may consider at least Awake - it is nothing new other than he is alive and not centuries dead:

 

"Enlightenment is a destructive process.

It has nothing to do with becoming better or being happier.

Enlightenment is the

crumbling away of untruth. It’s seeing

through the facade of pretense. It’s the

complete eradication of everything we

imagined to be true."

– Adyashanti

 

Half your sages and masters had a pretty tough time of it - so many were drunks and on the constant verge of suicide it is difficult to count them.

 

Did you like Allen Watts? If he spoke to a microphone he was plastered - virtually always half smashed if in public and lecturing.

 

We can all sit with our pinkies up and have tea and speak of "love" and non- grasping as though we have a clue.

 

But there is a reason so many sages and masters have come to Presence by deeeeeep dissatisfaction with life and great struggle - and one will not find in many of them an exception to this.

 

If one is not driven to very long hours of meditation - typically 16+ hours a day - one is driven to exhaustion - and it is in these that Presence arrives. As someone has said approximately - "you must want it like a drowning man"

Suffering is one of the primary causes for seeking. Seeking eventually leads to liberation.

[silent thunder]

curiosity and suffering led me to seek

seeking led to exhaustion

exhaustion led to release

 

no liberation yet... but there's a window with a lovely view

[Michael Sternbach]

The idea of tremendous dissatisfaction with ones life as one possible key to Awakening is not new - many great masters have brought this up. "Hating oneself" is hating that which does not exist - no reason to get stuck on the word "hate".

Forgiving this false self is an interesting occupation but oddly it is generally more somatic elixir- though it is part and parcel to some of the melting that is required to final exhaustion.

Within all the pretty pictures of Awakening and Oneness and Enlightenment - and all the not-understood quotes - we skim over the non-conceptual aspects of our sages and masters - it was not a cake walk.

The following quote is from someone that a few of you may consider at least Awake - it is nothing new other than he is alive and not centuries dead:

"Enlightenment is a destructive process.

It has nothing to do with becoming better or being happier.

Enlightenment is the

crumbling away of untruth. It’s seeing

through the facade of pretense. It’s the

complete eradication of everything we

imagined to be true."

– Adyashanti

Half your sages and masters had a pretty tough time of it - so many were drunks and on the constant verge of suicide it is difficult to count them.

Did you like Allen Watts? If he spoke to a microphone he was plastered - virtually always half smashed if in public and lecturing.

We can all sit with our pinkies up and have tea and speak of "love" and non- grasping as though we have a clue.

But there is a reason so many sages and masters have come to Presence by deeeeeep dissatisfaction with life and great struggle - and one will not find in many of them an exception to this.

If one is not driven to very long hours of meditation - typically 16+ hours a day - one is driven to exhaustion - and it is in these that Presence arrives. As someone has said approximately - "you must want it like a drowning man"

Yes, I like Alan Watts. I read a lot of his books. He was relentlessly teaching that aspiring after Enlightenment was useless. Acceptance of yourself and the world as perfect in your/its very imperfection was the key. That sounds a lot like love to me.

 

He was also very critical of what he called the "aching legs type of Buddhism" - the sitting-16-hours-in-zazen kind of thing. (And was in turn critisized by a representative of the latter school for his unorthodox attitude.)

[Spotless]

Edited May 11, 2017 by Spotless

[Michael Sternbach]

Curiosity had a great deal to do with my initial investigations - I was brought up Catholic and from the outset found it profoundly "off" but there was a "something"'going on in it. I examined it and at one point became an alter boy and at another point attended church everyday - but it was something I stood witnessing - it was still just as "off".

When I was in my mid to late teens I began reading and was struck fairly quickly by two things - One: how strongly I was programmed. Two: how radically different and expansive alternate views were.

I hit some very major milestones permanently in my early twenties and then "left" practice for a time. I remember someone asking why? given what "I had attained" and I said something to the effect that "I need to go out and lose myself in life".

One can proceed in practice in a robotic sense - as Allen Watts alluded to and Micheal Sternbach reminded us - but if we are truly driven to it - it is not what Watts was referring to. (Nor what I was referring to in an earlier post)

The programming of the time when I was younger was that it took a thousand lifetimes to attain Awakening/Enlightenment - this state was so off the table it was actually not something I was "striving" for - I approached practice vigorously but with only one aim: to expand my consciousneness / awareness, relinquish obstruction and foster timeless endurance and never ending patience. To see with an open eye and then see again and again anew. I carried Socrates within deeply - he was my first and most profound teacher.

Yes, there is a time and place for (almost) everything.

[Spotless]

Rather than conceptualize the idea of release from the adhesion of beliefs consider:

 

All of the great sages and masters say something to the effect: "I know nothing"

 

Socrates was told that the Oracle of Delphi was asked who was the wisest man in Athens and the Oracle replied "Socrates".

To which Socrates replied "the only thing I know is that I know nothing". This resonated like a gigantic gong through my entire space - and it still is always there.

 

This is what the conversation here is about - at least it is what I have been trying to point to.

How could someone like Socrates say such a thing?

It is possible to see some "saint" say this - giving it up to god etc. - but Socrates?

The massive mind of Socrates saying "I know nothing" ?

 

To know "something" is to hold it - deaden it - a belief in or of it.

 

It is possible to know in not knowing - nothing held

 

It takes a courage that cannot be had - it can only be attained by grace.

Fear compels us to hold and grapple, instinct to hoard and protect, emotion to will and covet.

[silent thunder]

 

Curiosity had a great deal to do with my initial investigations - I was brought up Catholic and from the outset found it profoundly "off" but there was a "something"'going on in it. I examined it and at one point became an alter boy and at another point attended church everyday - but it was something I stood witnessing - it was still just as "off".

 

When I was in my mid to late teens I began reading and was struck fairly quickly by two things - One: how strongly I was programmed. Two: how radically different and expansive alternate views were.

 

I hit some very major milestones permanently in my early twenties and then "left" practice for a time. I remember someone asking why? given what "I had attained" and I said something to the effect that "I need to go out and lose myself in life".

 

One can proceed in practice in a robotic sense - as Allen Watts alluded to and Micheal Sternbach reminded us - but if we are truly driven to it - it is not what Watts was referring to. (Nor what I was referring to in an earlier post)

 

The programming of the time when I was younger was that it took a thousand lifetimes to attain Awakening/Enlightenment - this state was so off the table it was actually not something I was "striving" for - I approached practice vigorously but with only one aim: to expand my consciousneness / awareness, relinquish obstruction and foster timeless endurance and never ending patience. To see with an open eye and then see again and again anew. I carried Socrates within deeply - he was my first and most profound teacher.

 

*deep bow*

 

Wow, the parallels in our lives is often stunning, but this one takes the cake, often with your words I get the sense that we all reflect each other in so many ways, but with a few here... it's a bit like I'm echoing their process, with subtely altered harmonics like I'm riding the set of waves behind theirs in the ocean of life.  Substitute Charismatic Lutheran for Catholic and I could see myself thinking I wrote the bolded. 

 

There are a few contributors here that give me this sense, but with you in particular, your manner of expressing and phrasing often trigger openings, evaporations and release for me.  So thank you for sharing as much of your time and effort as you do here, it is deeply appreciated.  Particularly as you seem able to communicate ineffible concepts, processes and qualities in a manner that I don't always comprehend and can't put into words myself often, but the expressions resonate and a deeper sense is transmitted and induces realization on a level beneath thought... like my name... silent thunder... it's an internal *woof* associated with vajra like intensity of realization and resonation.

 

The deep abiding connection to essential nature and spirit was always present for me in the church as a child and young man.  I experienced realizations and potent spiritual experiences of expansion and going within... multiple times in the setting of the church, but there was always the unshakable and palpable sense of that deeply 'off' quality in all matters church.  

 

I recall how fervently and obsessively I was seeking the core truths through the doctrine in confirmation years.  Everyone assumed that I was on my way to becoming a minister.  My passion was absolutely burning for truth regarding the experiences, I'd had.  I just hadn't identified the programming yet and so thought its source was indeed in the doctrine.

 

Inevitably my persistent and frankly, very manic seeking and questioning met with dead stares, uncomfortable feelings and utterly unsatisfying, or downright absurd answers from elders... so I eventually read the bible for myself.   They all kept quoting it in trying to answer my questions and told me the answers were there...   boy were they... just not the ones I expected. 

 

I'm now in my second cycle of walking away from 'practice'.  Though it's not like it was before... I've not dumped it with any emotional attachment or baggage or guilt or judgement or regret as I did in my angsty early years.

 

The concept of practice is just really about embodying awareness of fluidity... nothing robotic as you say... I just can't abide in anything robotic, no more running away and getting lost in pursuits, no more seeking...

 

really no more effort of any kind is welcome.

 

I still engage in playing forms, but it's fluid and comes and goes... I still sit formally, on occasion, but not like I used to, there is no clock, or should or shouldn't.. there is just fluid expression 

 

It happens when it happens, or it doesn't happen and nothing is shoved, coerced, or manipulated, pulled, coaxed or flirted with...

 

Breathing.  breathing into beingness...

just the most basic being... sitting, standing or walking... in line at the grocery store, or driving the car

teaching my son math, sketching

 

just being... softening... release. 

 

nice view from this window

[dwai]

Yes, there is a time and place for (almost) everything.

 

And trying to do something before one is ready often leads us down the longer road. But then, who can say that the longer road wasn't what was needed to be ready for it to be the "right" time and place?