Third Eye Blind: Aphantasia

[dwai]

13 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

I am not saying that there are not such things, but how do you know that it is not simply your subconscious mind making up mental imagery? At the level of conscious mind, it would just appear to you.

What is the "sub-conscious" mind and how is it different from the witness "I am"ness? 

 

I think what you call subconsciousness is what I simply call consciousness

[Apech]

18 minutes ago, dwai said:

What is the "sub-conscious" mind and how is it different from the witness "I am"ness? 

 

I think what you call subconsciousness is what I simply call consciousness

 

Closest to alaya-vijnana if you'll forgive the Buddhism?

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

What is the "sub-conscious" mind and how is it different from the witness "I am"ness? 

 

I think what you call subconsciousness is what I simply call consciousness

 

The differentiaion that I am trying to point out would probably be more like when you become angry. It happens and you can't really control it, but it is a "local" thing in your mind. The energy of the situation is causing a subconscious response. Just imagine it like instead of having anger arise in your mind as a response mechanism, instead you had a vision arise.

[dwai]

22 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

The differentiaion that I am trying to point out would probably be more like when you become angry. It happens and you can't really control it, but it is a "local" thing in your mind. The energy of the situation is causing a subconscious response. Just imagine it like instead of having anger arise in your mind as a response mechanism, instead you had a vision arise.

This is different from what I mean. Let me elaborate a bit more -- 

 

 In my experience the "imagined" images that I create, are different from the 3rd eye imagery. Usually the 3rd eye imagery is a result of some spiritual practices...such as meditation or taijiquan + neigong. 

 

When I meditate (still meditation) or even holding postures during Taiji practice, I see faces of people, sometimes dragons. People I don't know or recognize, or even sometimes my teacher's master shows up, enters and I experience the world through his eyes (he becomes my 'I AM'), if that makes any sense. I'll see him standing in front of me or standing in the horizon, immensely large. The ground and all around is his being....each movement is a ripple in the fabric of his being. Or sometimes he is tiny, like a miniature figure standing inside the taiji ball I have generated during practice. Sometimes he sends energy to me, into the LDT or the MDT.

 

Other type of 3rd eye vision I see is during circle meditation or taijiquan when I see the energy all around (like clouds of slightly grayish, white smoke). This happens irrespective of whether my physical eyes are open or closed. 

 

All of these are very difficult for my local mind to conjure up as usually they pop up unbeknownst to me. Does my local mind play a role in forming a local objective interpretation of the vision? More than likely it does, as it's role is to manifest objects for and in one's consciousness. 

[Jeff]

37 minutes ago, dwai said:

This is different from what I mean. Let me elaborate a bit more -- 

 

 In my experience the "imagined" images that I create, are different from the 3rd eye imagery. Usually the 3rd eye imagery is a result of some spiritual practices...such as meditation or taijiquan + neigong. 

 

When I meditate (still meditation) or even holding postures during Taiji practice, I see faces of people, sometimes dragons. People I don't know or recognize, or even sometimes my teacher's master shows up, enters and I experience the world through his eyes (he becomes my 'I AM'), if that makes any sense. I'll see him standing in front of me or standing in the horizon, immensely large. The ground and all around is his being....each movement is a ripple in the fabric of his being. Or sometimes he is tiny, like a miniature figure standing inside the taiji ball I have generated during practice. Sometimes he sends energy to me, into the LDT or the MDT.

 

Other type of 3rd eye vision I see is during circle meditation or taijiquan when I see the energy all around (like clouds of slightly grayish, white smoke). This happens irrespective of whether my physical eyes are open or closed. 

 

All of these are very difficult for my local mind to conjure up as usually they pop up unbeknownst to me. Does my local mind play a role in forming a local objective interpretation of the vision? More than likely it does, as it's role is to manifest objects for and in one's consciousness. 

 

My point was not to disagree with you, as I am completely confident that you do have 3rd eye visions. It was more to make a finer differentiation, that in general it is not as simple as conscious or 3rd eye. That many would call it 3rd eye, but it is actually more like my anger example of a "local" subconscious translation of the energy in the mind. It is very common for those who are only open to the 4th or 5th chakra to feel/sense energy that they don't consciously comprehend and have the mind translate that into some vision (or vivid dream) before the are actually open at the 3rd eye.

 

In particular, Spotless's friend story above describes it well. With great clarity it is a direct knowing of energy/light as there really is nothing to see. But for most, that energy reflect/translates into local mind and creates an "arising". All seeing is such a translation, with the difference that I am trying to describe being whether the underlying energy that is being translated is more at a "universal" consciousness level (like your teachers energy) or more a "local" mind-body level.

[blue eyed snake]

On 2017-5-10 at 6:17 PM, silent thunder said:

I recently (just a few weeks ago) discovered in a conversation with my wife... after nearly 30 years of marriage, that my wife has aphantasia.  She cannot form images or visualize anything in her mind.  When I say to her, imagine a red ball.  She does not see a red ball in some manner in her mind.  She has a sense of a ball that is red, but sees no virtual color or shape. 

 

This gob-smacked me... Didn't know this was possible, except in cases of brain damage, which is recorded.  But evidently for as many as one in fifty, folks are simply not able to form pictures/images, sounds, smells... nothing in their mind's eye.

 

Something I didn't even know was a thing in human constructs... It absolutely horrified me and has been weighing on me as I consider how other's meditate and dream... and think or even conceive of ideas and concepts.

 

It came about when I was really pegging her down over a dream she had had and how the building she was in was created... and she couldn't describe it in concrete terms.

 

She then revealed that she does not and has never in her life visualized any sight or sound of anything in her mind... that she indeed cannot and has no idea how to go about visualizing or creating any images in her mind... no sound, no sights, no smells... nada... only feelings of things... the overall sense of them. 

 

She dreams, but only through cognitive intuition... she feels the settings and the events... she does not experience them in the manner I do, by standing in a location, where I see, touch, feel, taste and smell all that is transpiring around me.

We are both utterly awed and stunned by how the other processes images and by how the other's mind works.

 

I told her, no wonder math and geometry were so challenging for you... for me, math is almost all visualization of groupings and relationships....

 

So  anyway there's that... aphantasia... third eye blind. 

 

 

 

interesting thread,

 

for many years, decennia really, i was like your wife. Unable to visualize ( although I did have dreams that were  'real' meaning i could give an description of the surroundings that were in my dream)

 

some years ago something happened and from that moment on i was able to visualize, probably not as strong as some others but it was sort of amazing for me. i'm sure  could train it quite easily now if I wanted.

 

reading this thread i realize that as a child  I was able to visualize too. And that I've lost that possibility after a traumatic experience.

 

but of course i do not say that that is the reaon that your wife can't.

 

but still, thought i should add my experienceto the thread

[allinone]

daydreaming is visualization?

 

its different from using the mind for to greate a picture how i get into shop.

 

nvm

mind can create predictions from past experiences and form the image.

 

also psychic phenomena is same level with mundane, its just like infrared vision what sees more than human eye.(its better not belive in pshychic phenomena existence bc once you know how t odo something you need have a real world organ for it otehrwise how you can mouth the knowledge out?.

Edited May 21, 2017 by allinone

[allinone]

On ‎20‎.‎05‎.‎2017 at 2:46 PM, Apech said:

I used to have a friend who told me they could not see any images in their mind.  She had to build images with words, describe them to herself.  I was quite amazed when I found this out because I visualise quite strongly.  It's not all head stuff either - I find that images spring from different places - for instance images which spring from the heart centre are fully formed and have a life and energy of their own, images which spring from the LDT are shockingly direct - like real things - while head generated images are more abstract.

you need use words. If you read a book silently only using mind not spellign the words out, you still is very faint stimulation of tongue, or throat.

if you watch video, using eyes then the understanding come when you get attached to what you see.

WSo there has to be some kind of connection made.

Edited May 21, 2017 by allinone

[Apech]

7 minutes ago, allinone said:

you need use words. If you read a book silently only using mind not spellign the words out, you still is very faint stimulation of tongue, or throat.

if you watch video, using eyes then the understanding come when you get attached to what you see.

WSo there has to be some kind of connection made.

 

 

Sorry I can't follow what you are saying.

[allinone]

1 minute ago, Apech said:

 

 

Sorry I can't follow what you are saying.

you need words to create an image. Its one way to do it. This is reference that you need use one of the sense organ to form a image, understanding, grasping. Image or form is grasping, then also any other activity is connected to sense organs, can be also internal organ.

 

fault is that the person who uses words doesn't investigate further. You can daydream so long till the pictures start flicker and you are unable to visualize, limitedness confirmed. You can use your mind to read a book and churn understandings out of it, but then at some point you are not able to anymore, limitedness confirmed.

[Apech]

1 minute ago, allinone said:

you need words to create an image. Its one way to do it. This is reference that you need use one of the sense organ to form a image, understanding, grasping. Image or form is grasping, then also any other activity is connected to sense organs, can be also internal organ.

 

fault is that the person who uses words doesn't investigate further. You can daydream so long till the pictures start flicker and you are unable to visualize, limitedness confirmed. You can use your mind to read a book and churn understandings out of it, but then at some point you are not able to anymore, limitedness confirmed.

 

The person I knew said they literally could not form an image in their mind.

[allinone]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

The person I knew said they literally could not form an image in their mind.

"she had to build images with words"

 

[Apech]

5 minutes ago, allinone said:

"she had to build images with words"

 

 

Well what I meant she still had no image just the description.

[allinone]

Just now, Apech said:

 

Well what I meant she still had no image just the description.

 

ok, i think the forming images biological pathway is natural for them who can do it. Using, abusing that power is idolatry. Its like i can run 7.8 sec 100m and i then use that skill to make a living.

[Taomeow]

[silent thunder]

1 minute ago, Taomeow said:

*deep bow*

i am not worthy....

 

dear god that was funny... thank you!

[allinone]

i know that people tell things wrongly, when they say they use mind to read, well then pls why you need book at all?

 

or why not imagine an orange, manifest it into physical reality? if you can't then the orange is from past experience derived, its fed to your brain beforehand so you got caught again because if you decided to imagine orange its already pass some centers and therefore it seem you can imagine it from scratch.

But if someone else asks you to imagine X thing, then you need evoke past experience, otherwise you could know chinese language without learning it.

[SpiritME]

On 5/10/2017 at 6:23 PM, Jeff said:

Very interesting. I don't mean to be rude, but would you be willing to ask her if I could remotely do an energy body scan on her?  See what I find at that mental translation space?

 

Thanks,

Jeff

 

Hi Jeff

 

Could you please scan my energy body to see why i can't see with my third eye. My imagination is the same, i can think the red ball but don't see it. 

 

Thanks 

 

 

[AussieTrees]

38 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

Haha,thankyou  Taomeow,

When 'the new layout'was happening,couldn't get login,so had a surf around.

found the Star Wars blog website,so had a look,they have a thread called."Talk like yoda I will."

"superficial they are"

[allinone]

by the way what is the meaning of that meme?

[Jeff]

45 minutes ago, SpiritME said:

 

Hi Jeff

 

Could you please scan my energy body to see why i can't see with my third eye. My imagination is the same, i can think the red ball but don't see it. 

 

Thanks 

 

 

 

Sure. Reply here or in a pm?

[AussieTrees]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

 

Sure. Reply here or in a pm?

Hi Jeff,

respectfully can you tell us all a bit more about your practice of body scan,curious,thanks.

[Kar3n]

2 minutes ago, AussieTrees said:

Hi Jeff,

respectfully can you tell us all a bit more about your practice of body scan,curious,thanks.

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42858-my-experience/

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/41978-q-a-for-jeff/

 

[Jeff]

43 minutes ago, AussieTrees said:

Hi Jeff,

respectfully can you tell us all a bit more about your practice of body scan,curious,thanks.

 

Just let me know if you have any more specific questions after the links that karen so graciously posted.

[Apech]

Have you seen the film Scanners? ....