Third Eye Blind: Aphantasia

[SpiritME]

22 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

Sure. Reply here or in a pm?

Yes pm plz Jeff

 

Thank you 

[Daeluin]

Hmmm, what an interesting thread.

 

I suspect I am one of those affected by this, to some degree.

 

As a child I recall having vivid dreams, sometimes of places I still remember. Although when I attempt to visualize them, it is more the feel of how the looked and a very specific spatial/mechanical awareness of what they were. In some cases, I attached so strongly to one part of how I think something looked that that is all I have.

 

I can imagine a red ball, but I have to create it with some effort. I can imagine anything visually like this, but it requires construction, if that makes sense - unless I've seen it recently, and then I can connect to the feeling of the memory of what I've seen. Perhaps this is also related to how I construct things, by reaching until I have the necessary information.

 

I am left-handed, but still fairly close to ambidextrous. I went to college for music performance, but mostly because this is what I did in grade school - I quickly learned that while I had good technical ability, I needed work on creating the soul of the music. My art-work is also very math/pattern based. I work a lot with reasoning things out, and have a good sense of directional awareness and intuitive understanding of how machines work.

 

Mostly, with dreams, I think I do visualize things, but it is extremely difficult to consciously recall what things look like in any detail at all, even when in that hazy state before waking up, while my barely active mind is still connected to the deeper layers. Absolutely never remember faces. If someone was familiar to me in a dream I have to work this out with intuition, how the relationship of the person felt to me. I recall reading once that we can't read writing in dreams, and I guess I don't know if this is true or not, because it's always been impossible for me to read anything in dreams.

 

The one dream I had one night as a senior in high school that I woke up and still remember, was of a room. It had a tall ceiling, elaborate theater style curtains, and I was seeing it from a certain place within. Curious, I accepted that I had a clear memory of this room. I proceed to audition for all-state band for the first time a couple weeks later (never thought I'd actually make it, wasn't even nervous during it because of this), and proceeded to place. 5 months later I show up to the practice room - in a city I'd never been to before, the room was situated deep inside a big performing arts center, not open to the public, no windows. I take a seat and look up. Exactly same tall ceiling and thick curtains, from the same perspective. Uncanny... I had not thought much about my dream, but as soon as I looked up I remembered it as an exact match.

 

I used to escape into novels, and I would get to a point where the novel came alive inside of me, but it was like I was feeling everything that happened from the character's perspective. Visual descriptions were felt, as in how I might feel looking over a vast mountain vista - I would feel the sharp drop of before me, sense the vast distance spreading way out into some clouds and kinda see imaginary mountain peaks off in the distance, but the image of them would be indistinct and changing to different types of mountains whenever I revisit them, as though I am cycling through pictures of mountains I've seen before rather than creating them with my shen.

 

Now, having done energy work for some years, I've played with various different things, including the third eye. For me it has been a portal for working with energy, but I always seem to use too much effort when pulling on it. Also, for a long time I had more of a sense of yin energy than yang energy - it was only this past year that I began to feel yang energy or perhaps shen, and start to understand the principles to inviting it into deeper integration within. Along with this sensing of a new type of energy, some of my work has changed. For example, now when I do some types of qigong, my shen will crystallize and clarify somewhat, which I also associate with sitting more in stillness more regularly. When I sleep I seem to have dreams with a sharper quality to them.

 

A couple weeks ago I accidentally had some coffee for the first time in a while, couldn't sleep, and decided drinking some beer was the antidote... I had to much and regretted it, but also had an interesting experience... something about the beer helped to crystallize the energy to a greater extent, and I became more aware of a more "visual" sense of seeing the edges of various crystalline energy shapes all around my field. I associated this with the 3rd eye / pineal gland, but also with wood/liver type of energy from the alcohol.

 

Wood energy is something I don't have very much of, based on my BaZi chart, which seems to correspond with my life experience. Although I do have large, healthy, shiny, moist nails, and I used to have 20/20 vision, my eyesight has suffered over the years, though not bad enough to require glasses... perhaps it is a difference between having a healthy enough liver and weaker gall bladder, not sure. This describes my past somewhat well. It takes a lot to make me angry, while people with excess wood qi frequently have major issues with managing their excess energies.

 

I've always been the patient, quiet, someone timid and sort, after my initial burst of early childhood energy - supposedly if the 3rd chakra isn't developed in those early years, the 4th opens wide without regulation - I remember burning like a sun, but then after some time I burnt out. After that I was often bullied and pushed around, wasn't able to make decisions for myself. But nice side effect of NEVER getting headaches, which presumably is related to not having those excesses of pent up qi - any of my excesses related to hun were explored in my imagination, outside of my body. I've experienced hangovers, but this seems a bit different. When in high school sometimes my mother and I would have a disagreement (she never gave in) and I could get pushed into something like anger, so I would just walk off and around the block, and then I'd be fine and was ready to move on. Wood energy is also associated with the hun, which is also associated with dreaming and vision.

 

All in all it seems something related to the hun spirit is the issue with aphantasia.

 

Oh and @Jeff, feel free to do whatever / share whatever. My sense is that I am able to work in these energy centers related to vision more and more, but need a lot more refining and gaining experience on how they operate rather than trying to push the energy I am used to through them. I think I need a lot more work with inviting the various shen back into the body now that I am taking back over the 3rd chakra regulation of energy and creating a home/field for the higher vibration energies again.

 

I've started to connect this to the energy gate between the shoulder blades called "spirit gate" - when the shen is able to reside here, I am able to act and react from a more stabilized perspective without feeling the need to move out of the way of things coming to me. Shen/spirit likes stillness and all that. Once the shen is relaxed and in place here, I'm getting that it is more centered and one is less easily pushed around.

[Daeluin]

Oh and yeah, learning has always been a little difficult. I love things like math and chemistry, but it always seems to take me a lot more effort to hold the space for calculating equations. I can do math in my head, but it's like I do it on paper, and takes a lot of energy to hold each number stable long enough to work my way through something simple like adding 2 3digit numbers together.

 

I do also remember one quite lovely brief glimpse of meditative bliss. My mind was so clear that when I went to remember a number, I just thought of it, let it go, and it stayed right there in my mind without any effort.

[Jeff]

5 hours ago, Daeluin said:

...

Oh and @Jeff, feel free to do whatever / share whatever. My sense is that I am able to work in these energy centers related to vision more and more, but need a lot more refining and gaining experience on how they operate rather than trying to push the energy I am used to through them. I think I need a lot more work with inviting the various shen back into the body now that I am taking back over the 3rd chakra regulation of energy and creating a home/field for the higher vibration energies again.

...

 

Your case is a little more complicated, as you have higher energies streaming in at the crown. So it is not just your own "local" energy affecting local mind state and the ability to imagine stuff. It would be more like your imagining would "spill over" to things and people around you. If you ever want to try an experiment, we could create a little more "space" for you (or more power) and see if it became easier for you to imagine stuff. Kind of like create a little cove in the flow of the river.

[Brian]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

 

Your case is a little more complicated, as you have higher energies streaming in at the crown. So it is not just your own "local" energy affecting local mind state and the ability to imagine stuff. It would be more like your imagining would "spill over" to things and people around you. If you ever want to try an experiment, we could create a little more "space" for you (or more power) and see if it became easier for you to imagine stuff. Kind of like create a little cove in the flow of the river.

I am curious, Jeff. I perceive some strong resonances between Daeluin and me, and some sharp contrasts as well. I think our comments & your responses to us in this thread suggest this as well.  I, for one, would be interested (either here or via PM, at your discretion) in hearing your perception of the comparison/contrast you see.

 

(Not just from Jeff, BTW -- I am always open to sincere feedback/insight which might provide me with greater understanding or help me along my path.)

[Apech]

2 hours ago, Brian said:

I am curious, Jeff. I perceive some strong resonances between Daeluin and me, and some sharp contrasts as well. I think our comments & your responses to us in this thread suggest this as well.  I, for one, would be interested (either here or via PM, at your discretion) in hearing your perception of the comparison/contrast you see.

 

(Not just from Jeff, BTW -- I am always open to sincere feedback/insight which might provide me with greater understanding or help me along my path.)

 

I thought you were identical twins separated at birth.

[Brian]

40 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

I thought you were identical twins separated at birth.

The judge ruled Daeluin doesn't have to acknowledge that.

[Jeff]

12 hours ago, Brian said:

I am curious, Jeff. I perceive some strong resonances between Daeluin and me, and some sharp contrasts as well. I think our comments & your responses to us in this thread suggest this as well.  I, for one, would be interested (either here or via PM, at your discretion) in hearing your perception of the comparison/contrast you see.

 

(Not just from Jeff, BTW -- I am always open to sincere feedback/insight which might provide me with greater understanding or help me along my path.)

 

Yes, the two of you have similar energy body configurations. Will send you a pm directly to discuss.

[Daeluin]

13 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

Your case is a little more complicated, as you have higher energies streaming in at the crown. So it is not just your own "local" energy affecting local mind state and the ability to imagine stuff. It would be more like your imagining would "spill over" to things and people around you. If you ever want to try an experiment, we could create a little more "space" for you (or more power) and see if it became easier for you to imagine stuff. Kind of like create a little cove in the flow of the river.

 

Well, my sense is that whatever is coming in through the crown is for integration, and "my" role is to help facilitate this by cleaning up space within and staying clear and empty enough for integration to occur. So creating more room for "ego-me", I'm not sure. I sense I should trust the process and do my best to "be nothing." Though I imagine that this will become more difficult to do without sensing in much greater detail as things progress.

[Jeff]

19 minutes ago, Daeluin said:

 

Well, my sense is that whatever is coming in through the crown is for integration, and "my" role is to help facilitate this by cleaning up space within and staying clear and empty enough for integration to occur. So creating more room for "ego-me", I'm not sure. I sense I should trust the process and do my best to "be nothing." Though I imagine that this will become more difficult to do without sensing in much greater detail as things progress.

 

No problem, but I would not say that it would be creating more room for ego you. Maybe think of it more like two polarities of a pendulum (male and female side energies). Everyone's pendulum swing range and speed is limited by issues and fears (ego stuff) that limit the movement of that pendulum. The spillover I was describing is when there is too much energy/flow for the pendulum range (clear space of mind).

[Daeluin]

44 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

No problem, but I would not say that it would be creating more room for ego you. Maybe think of it more like two polarities of a pendulum (male and female side energies). Everyone's pendulum swing range and speed is limited by issues and fears (ego stuff) that limit the movement of that pendulum. The spillover I was describing is when there is too much energy/flow for the pendulum range (clear space of mind).

 

OK, hehe... it sounds like we are saying the same thing then. Though I am unclear about accepting help from another in clearing out space inside. I feel this is something I need to do on my own. Help from another may have larger results, and may allow the pendulum to swing more, and yet it may also set much more in motion as a part of this, so it is a big decision. Maybe you can share more with me in PM.

[s1va]

On 5/10/2017 at 11:17 AM, silent thunder said:

I recently (just a few weeks ago) discovered in a conversation with my wife... after nearly 30 years of marriage, that my wife has aphantasia.  She cannot form images or visualize anything in her mind.  When I say to her, imagine a red ball.  She does not see a red ball in some manner in her mind.  She has a sense of a ball that is red, but sees no virtual color or shape. 

 

This gob-smacked me... Didn't know this was possible, except in cases of brain damage, which is recorded.  But evidently for as many as one in fifty, folks are simply not able to form pictures/images, sounds, smells... nothing in their mind's eye.

 

Something I didn't even know was a thing in human constructs... It absolutely horrified me and has been weighing on me as I consider how other's meditate and dream... and think or even conceive of ideas and concepts.

 

It came about when I was really pegging her down over a dream she had had and how the building she was in was created... and she couldn't describe it in concrete terms.

 

She then revealed that she does not and has never in her life visualized any sight or sound of anything in her mind... that she indeed cannot and has no idea how to go about visualizing or creating any images in her mind... no sound, no sights, no smells... nada... only feelings of things... the overall sense of them. 

 

She dreams, but only through cognitive intuition... she feels the settings and the events... she does not experience them in the manner I do, by standing in a location, where I see, touch, feel, taste and smell all that is transpiring around me.

We are both utterly awed and stunned by how the other processes images and by how the other's mind works.

 

I told her, no wonder math and geometry were so challenging for you... for me, math is almost all visualization of groupings and relationships....

 

So  anyway there's that... aphantasia... third eye blind. 

 

 

 

I was surprised when I read this post.   I knew that I can't visualize well, but, I did not know others can picture so well.  

Based on what I read on this topic so far, this does not seem so clear cut .  There seems to be varying degrees of visualization, starting with no image to perfectly clear and vivid visualization.  Please check out the questionnaire below.  I fall in between the spectrum.   I can visualize, but it is cloudy, hazy or not very clear.  There are some things, that I can visualize with moderately clear  details.  But, if someone asks me to suddenly visualize a red ball, I have to make effort and still get only a hazy/cloudy picture of a red ball.  I saw a description saying behind a dark curtain or something like that, it is also not a stable picture.  

 

I found a questionnaire here:  http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~kihlstrm/MarksVVIQ.htm  .  I answered 4 (vague and dim) or 3 (moderately clear and vivid) for most of the questions.   I would be interested in knowing how others answer this.

 

As Brain has mentioned, in my case also, there are no issues with dreams.  Lately, there were lot of  vivid dreams.  I am not sure, if this has anything to do with third eye.  I sometimes get (moderately) clear visions during meditation.   Also, during meditation (and many other times, when I close the eyes), there is the bright golden inner light and sometimes with colors and shapes, etc.    Sometimes, this inner light gets so bright, it's blinding.   I could never visualize the lotus or images they associate with chakras, but there is vibration, light and colors at energy centers.

 

The visualization of the sound , smell, taste, feel part is puzzling.   If I recall one of the popular singers singing, the image/visualization of the singing is not  clear, but I can recall the singing or music, or their voice clearly in my mind.  The same goes for smell, taste or feel.  I wonder, if someone can't recall the sounds, how would they distinguish or remember a each person's unique voice?

 

This lack of clear visualization did not impact my learning abilities, math, geometry or computer science anything like that.  If anyone has this problem, I wouldn't want them to worry unnecessarily.  I can assure that I did alright (better than alright) and still do  

Edited May 28, 2017 by kāvēri

[Taomeow]

3 hours ago, kāvēri said:

 

 

The visualization of the sound , smell, taste, feel part is puzzling.   If I recall one of the popular singers singing, the image/visualization of the singing is not  clear, but I can recall the singing or music, or their voice clearly in my mind.  The same goes for smell, taste or feel.  I wonder, if someone can't recall the sounds, how would they distinguish or remember a each person's unique voice?

 

To recognize on exposure is not the same as to recreate in one's inner senses.  The recognition of voices does not require being able to imagine them when they are silent.  I have learned much about the difference between the two when learning to do my main taiji form in my mind.  I could do it only a few years after I could do it in the physical world.  That was a breakthrough for me, since it actually means now I'm free to practice whenever and wherever I want -- regardless of the outer circumstances.   

 

For me the visual part of visualization was the learned skill, but the rest of the sensorium has always been super acute -- in fact, the practical problem for me is more along the lines of, "how do I stop imagining this so acutely and vividly."  I can get a buzz from drinking imaginary wine, satisfy hunger by eating imaginary food, smell imaginary flowers and listen to imaginary music of sublime beauty -- it's much harder for me to shut down my senses than to let them do what they fancy.  

Edited May 28, 2017 by Taomeow

[s1va]

After speaking with few other people and reading this thread entirely, I can confirm that I cannot visualize things the way they do with clarity.   This was surprising to them and it was surprising to me.  So, add me to the list also!

 

When I came across the phrase daydreaming, few times in last year.  I had to lookup the Wiki pages and dictionary to make sure what exactly it meant and how it is different from night dreams.  Now, this explain why.  Something similar to daydreaming happens to me with vague visualizations.  I call this absent mindedness or caught up in thoughts.  I can't daydream like how it is described.  

 

On 5/23/2017 at 11:30 AM, Daeluin said:

 

I can imagine a red ball, but I have to create it with some effort. I can imagine anything visually like this, but it requires construction, if that makes sense - unless I've seen it recently, and then I can connect to the feeling of the memory of what I've seen. Perhaps this is also related to how I construct things, by reaching until I have the necessary information.

 

 

ditto....  I don't have to add a single word, the above matched my experience 100%.

 

On 5/23/2017 at 11:30 AM, Daeluin said:

Mostly, with dreams, I think I do visualize things, but it is extremely difficult to consciously recall what things look like in any detail at all, even when in that hazy state before waking up, while my barely active mind is still connected to the deeper layers. Absolutely never remember faces. If someone was familiar to me in a dream I have to work this out with intuition, how the relationship of the person felt to me. I recall reading once that we can't read writing in dreams, and I guess I don't know if this is true or not, because it's always been impossible for me to read anything in dreams.

 

The one dream I had one night as a senior in high school that I woke up and still remember, was of a room.

 

You saved me from typing lot of things  .   This matches my experience, more or less perfectly.  However, you recall one dream from high school.  I can recall none.

 

On 5/23/2017 at 11:30 AM, Daeluin said:

I used to escape into novels, and I would get to a point where the novel came alive inside of me, but it was like I was feeling everything that happened from the character's perspective. Visual descriptions were felt, as in how I might feel looking over a vast mountain vista - I would feel the sharp drop of before me, sense the vast distance spreading way out into some clouds and kinda see imaginary mountain peaks off in the distance, but the image of them would be indistinct and changing to different types of mountains whenever I revisit them, as though I am cycling through pictures of mountains I've seen before rather than creating them with my shen.

 

ditto....  once again matches my experience, the image being indistinct and changing to different types matches perfectly.   I would have explained this in my own words.

 

There are many images from past that I can recall with low/moderate amount of clarity.  It is still nowhere as clear as others describe.  However, the things I have not seen, like this novel example or the red ball, it is extremely hard to picture an image for these.  When I do, it is cloudy, vague, indistinct and changes to different types as you mentioned.  It is as you described on the first quote above, related to how I construct things until I have the necessary information.

 

 

On 5/23/2017 at 11:30 AM, Daeluin said:

Oh and @Jeff, feel free to do whatever / share whatever. My sense is that I am able to work in these energy centers related to vision more and more, but need a lot more refining and gaining experience on how they operate rather than trying to push the energy I am used to through them. I think I need a lot more work with inviting the various shen back into the body now that I am taking back over the 3rd chakra regulation of energy and creating a home/field for the higher vibration energies again.

 

@Jeff, feel free to do whatever / share, Thanks.    I am not able to explain it in terms of chakra or in detail as how Daeluin does.

 

As Daeluin mentioned, my dreams are also getting sharper lately.  I have had lucid dreaming at times in the past few years, and some other experiences on dreams.

 

I am still not quite sure, if this affects learning in anyway.  There is a picture puzzle in this link:  https://www.newscientist.com/article/2083706-my-minds-eye-is-blind-so-whats-going-on-in-my-brain/

 

I think this is a great image puzzle that might help determine, if someone has this issue.  I had a tough time imagining the picture and to find which are the rotated images of the picture down on that page.  However, I did find the right answer before or at the same time, with the people who could picture the image.  Later when I processed in mind to determine, how I did that, it was a revelation.  My mind rapidly absorbed other details of the picture as thoughts, like angels in that picture, counting how many green and white tiles were there.  When they asked later, which are the turned image of the that block, with the information such as angle, direction and with a really vague and unclear image (without any colors), I could find the answer.

 

On 5/20/2017 at 4:07 PM, blue eyed snake said:

reading this thread i realize that as a child  I was able to visualize too. And that I've lost that possibility after a traumatic experience.

 

Thank you.  I think this might very well be a possibility in my case.  It feels like I had the ability to visualize as a child.   I think, I lost the ability at some point of time, when I was a kid.

Edited May 28, 2017 by kāvēri