UFC Fighter Says He Will Defend Tai Chi

[Green Tiger]

If you haven't heard, tai chi is under serious fire lately after a retired Chinese MMA guy totally laid the smack down on some supposed tai chi master.  The video made it all over the internet.  The New York Times even ran a piece on it today.

 

Because of the sacred cow status of traditonal Chinese martial arts in China, all sorts of people have been called for the MMA guy's head.  Some Chinese millionaire even offered huge cash prizes to any TCMA fighter who beats him.  It's attracted a few big names.  

 

Former UFC fighter, Nick Osipczak said he likes to see tai chi tested, but also said he'll fight Xu Xiaodong if there's going to be prize money.

“I actually like what Xu is doing and think it is good for the current state of martial arts. It will help expose those living in fantasy land, deluding themselves and their students into thinking they can fight. You cannot be a good fighter if you only ever stay within your comfort zone and practise with your students who are inferior to you in skill. Real, hard sparring over many years is essential to not just refine the movements but also to shape the mindset. Otherwise, the moment things start going against you, you will mentally crumble and succumb to defeat. In my last fight my orbital bone was broken in two places early on, but I managed to stay focused, and gain the victory.”

Edited June 8, 2017 by Green Tiger

[RiverSnake]

I also agree it's quite healthy for martial arts as a whole. Dojo challengers play a key role in keeping teachers and styles on there toes....making sure people don't get too complacent and live in the illusions of competence. When your teaching an art that is supposed to save people's lives there is no room for ego....always remember your training under the sword. 

 

"Day after day train your heart out, refining your technique. That is the way of the warrior." Morihei Ueshiba 

Edited May 11, 2017 by OldSaint

[Aetherous]

Taijiquan (as we all know it) is 99% not a martial art...that's why this happened.

[Michael Sternbach]

Regarding its foundations, Taiji is actually a most excellent martial art. And Taiji masters of yore were renowned for kicking butt. However, the art is rarely being practised with this aim today.

 

As far as it's at all taught as a functional system of fighting, it is self-defence oriented rather than sport oriented. Much like the Southern Shaolin styles, it typically goes for the weakest spots of human anatomy. Which makes it less suitable fot competition fighting, where those targets are outlawed.

[C T]

the thing with Tai Chi is the slow mastery process. 

 

The cream usually wont rise till a practitioner has been at it (daily) for a couple of decades. 

By that time its hard to envisage a Tai Chi adept wanting to engage in MMA frenzy

 

Yet, no surprise that among all the different forms of trad Chinese martial arts, it is the most potent...

...but the most peace-centred simultaneously.  

[dawei]

Please correct me, but Tai Ji is taught as what to do while on your feet... when you are on your back... that is a street brawl.

 

That is why wrestlers tend to excel in MMA. 

[windwalker]

Taiji as a  practice only exist in those who practice it. 

Why is it that many who practice it look for conformation of 

their practice outside themselves.  

 

I don't  

[dwai]

The guy who was beaten, did the exact opposite of what a taiji person should do. He backpedaled and tried to maintain distance between the boxer and himself. He should have entered and got into push hands or grappling range.

 

It's pointless talking about this guy because he is not really a taiji master...just some bs guy who got promoted in a tv show.

[Sudhamma]

Backpedalling in reaction to the straight incoming onslaught is a huge mistake. Wei Lei's hands were not able to ward away those incoming punches. No 'muscle memory'? No 'listening' jing? One of the defensive strong points of Taijichuan is to respond to the attack like a ball (if you understand what I'm trying say). Anyway, it all boils down to experience. Wei Lei did not seem to have any fighting experience and foolhardy enough to accept the challenge from Xu,a MMA fighter. One adage in CMA is, One is Strength, Two is Boldness, and Third is Kungfu. Martial Arts skills only comes in third in priority of importance. A good fighter must have those qualities to win, not false confidence.

 

" Be afraid of one who practise a single kick a thousand times".

 

Edit: actually, it should be One is Boldness, Two is Strength, and Third is Kungfu. Boldness comes first.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Sudhamma

[Mig]

Taijiquan (as we all know it) is 99% not a martial art...that's why this happened.

If it is not martial art why using the name of fist (quan) of the ultimate? What is taiji if is not a martial art?

Edited May 11, 2017 by Mig

[Mig]

Backpedalling in reaction to the straight incoming onslaught is a huge mistake. Wei Lei's hands were not able to ward away those incoming punches. No 'muscle memory'? No 'listening' jing? One of the defensive strong points of Taijichuan is to respond to the attack like a ball (if you understand what I'm trying say). Anyway, it all boils down to experience. Wei Lei did not seem to have any fighting experience and foolhardy enough to accept the challenge from Xu,a MMA fighter. One adage in CMA is, One is Strength, Two is Boldness, and Third is Kungfu. Martial Arts skills only comes in third in priority of importance. A good fighter must have those qualities to win, not false confidence.

 

" Be afraid of one who practise a single kick a thousand times".

一力二胆三功夫 not sure if this apply in this video clip. Starting 1993 the beginning of a wake up call about CMA efficiency in fighting. It is not only the style but the individual. The problem I have always encountered with most of CMA is the efficiency in fighting and clearly we know that there is much more mysterious, secret art that doesn't work in real life.

[Sudhamma]

If Taijichuan is being practised as a martial arts should, then it is a martial arts. Afterall, the fighting form was a collection of effective fighting techniques during the end-Ming period. The founder of Yang-style Taijichuan (an off-shoot of Chen style), Yang Luchan had a nick-name, "Yang the Undefeated" as he defeated all comers during his day. In those days, the fights were not under UFC/MMA rules, however, except for no eye-gouging, no throat or neck strike, and no groin attack, all other strikes including elbows and breaking of limbs were permitted. The last of such brutal fights were in around 1928 prior to the establishment of Nanjing Central Kuoshu Academy, and the first two days of the competition saw a few notable martial artists were killed, and immediately the rules were changed to what is now Sanda or Sanshou.

 

After China became the People's Republic, the Government wanted to popularize Taijichuan as a form of exercise to rebuild the health of the people in those early days of the New China. So traditional Taijichuan families were given that task to simiply those difficult martial movements for the senior citizens. From the emphasis of martial effectiveness, it was then health improvements. The second wave of change (in the '70s?) came when the various taijichuan families were asked to form 'universal' sets of taijichuan suitable for grading in competitions. 

 

Is learning Taijichuan as a martial arts form possible? Sure, you must first identify a good sifu knowledgeable and has fight experience to back up his skills. Second, you must have the time and stamina to learn the martial side of the art. Third, you (with your sifu's approval) must be bold enough to test the skills. Taijichuan is taijichuan, no boxing, no kick-boxing. You will be certain to lose the first few fights, and you fall-back to your sifu for honing. Then go and fight again till you win. After that, go up the difficulty ladder. That's fight experience for you. 

[Taoist Texts]

 What is taiji if is not a martial art?

 

What is a martial art?

[windwalker]

If Taijichuan is being practised as a martial arts should, then it is a martial arts. Afterall, the fighting form was a collection of effective fighting techniques during the end-Ming period. The founder of Yang-style Taijichuan (an off-shoot of Chen style), Yang Luchan had a nick-name, "Yang the Undefeated" as he defeated all comers during his day. In those days, the fights were not under UFC/MMA rules, however, except for no eye-gouging, no throat or neck strike, and no groin attack, all other strikes including elbows and breaking of limbs were permitted. The last of such brutal fights were in around 1928 prior to the establishment of Nanjing Central Kuoshu Academy, and the first two days of the competition saw a few notable martial artists were killed, and immediately the rules were changed to what is now Sanda or Sanshou.

 

After China became the People's Republic, the Government wanted to popularize Taijichuan as a form of exercise to rebuild the health of the people in those early days of the New China. So traditional Taijichuan families were given that task to simiply those difficult martial movements for the senior citizens. From the emphasis of martial effectiveness, it was then health improvements. The second wave of change (in the '70s?) came when the various taijichuan families were asked to form 'universal' sets of taijichuan suitable for grading in competitions. 

 

Is learning Taijichuan as a martial arts form possible? Sure, you must first identify a good sifu knowledgeable and has fight experience to back up his skills. Second, you must have the time and stamina to learn the martial side of the art. Third, you (with your sifu's approval) must be bold enough to test the skills. Taijichuan is taijichuan, no boxing, no kick-boxing. You will be certain to lose the first few fights, and you fall-back to your sifu for honing. Then go and fight again till you win. After that, go up the difficulty ladder. That's fight experience for you. 

links to what is posted?

[Sudhamma]

Hi Windwalker, those 1928 competitions were 'Lei Tai' or 'Leitai'. Can't give you the links now as I did not record the information when I read them years ago. You may have to search studiously. Try also Nanjing Central Kuoshu Academy.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Sudhamma

[Michael Sternbach]

Laymen may think that the show fight this topic refers to is telling something about the martial prowess inherent to Taiji. It does not.

 

I watched that fight on Youtube. I got the impression that the Taiji man had little idea what he was dealing with. He was ill prepared. The secret of victory is to know your opponent as well as yourself.

 

Best, the fight would have been between the MMA fighter and another MMA (or perhaps Sanshou) fighter who uses Taiji as his base. Only this would allow us to draw conclusions - not about the art's overall martial usefulness, but about its applicability in the octagon.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Michael Sternbach

[windwalker]

Hi Windwalker, those 1928 competitions were 'Lei Tai' or 'Leitai'. Can't give you the links now as I did not record the information when I read them years ago. You may have to search studiously. Try also Nanjing Central Kuoshu Academy.

 

Hi Windwalker, those 1928 competitions were 'Lei Tai' or 'Leitai'. Can't give you the links now as I did not record the information when I read them years ago. You may have to search studiously. Try also Nanjing Central Kuoshu Academy.

Thanks just wondered. 

A style I was somewhat familiar with had similar accounts. 

 

 

The leitai, was a proving ground for many styles back in the day.

They may not have been as "scientific" in styles /approaches used which IMO often accounts for the high injury rate often reported.  Also some the people back then were not exactly nice guys. Different time

 

 

One of Wong's most popular tales is his return to Guangdong. In front of Hai Tung Monastery, Wong set up an elevated stage known as a leitai to accept challenges from any and all comers. Over the course of eighteen days, he defeated over one hundred and fifty challengers. "Either the challenger was maimed or killed," noted Chin.http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=661

Edited May 11, 2017 by windwalker

[C T]

not the Tai Chi taught or practiced in parks for sure

 

 

 

A Tai Chi master who includes grappling techniques and seclusion practice in his routine. Around 14' mark he demonstrates to a Western exponent how to get out of a straight arm bar. 

 

[C T]

not sure if YT videos have any privacy rights. If moderators are uneasy about the top video being posted, feel free to delete. Tks

[Michael Sternbach]

not the Tai Chi taught or practiced in parks for sure

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGztUoE8BR4

 

 

A Tai Chi master who includes grappling techniques and seclusion practice in his routine. Around 14' mark he demonstrates to a Western exponent how to get out of a straight arm bar. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhrL6IvHrnk

The guy in the upper video looked awfully tense to me, and his breathing technique was reminiscent of Sanchin kata as practised in Goju-ryu Karate rather than of anything I ever saw in IMA.

 

I quite liked the second video though - even if the 'attacker' was a student or friend of the master, the skill demonstrated by the latter was impressive.

[z00se]

Mmmmm. I think it's important to consider that these MMA fighters are Professional Fighters. That's what they do for a living. It's their full time job to train, fight and win money. They put their bodies through tremendous strain and most compete for a short period of time (Like professional football players) then retire.

 

I'm not sure Tai Chi masters these days are the same. Perhaps in the warring states periods of China Tai Chi practitioners in the Army may be on the same sort of practice routine but i doubt so these days. Tai chi prepares the practitioner to always be switched on and ready for defense if somebody attacks. It's a lifelong journey.

 

I remember my dad saying that back in the 70s and earlier there were many competitions between the eastern martial artists and western boxers, and the western boxers usually won.

 

I think there are several factors contributing to this.

Although it's true that most real Tai Chi masters have no pride and wouldn't fight in a competition. They probably pick rice in some tiny village or something and wouldn't put themselves in that type of danger just for money. But even still, these MMA guys are usually bigger, heavier and stronger than your typical tai chi guy. People may say size doesn't matter, it's agility and timing that makes tai chi so powerful, but regardless, weight does matter. They wouldn't have weight classes in martial art competitions if weight was meaningless. I've seen a pack of 4 - 6 tigers struggle and unable to beat an full sized elephant on David Attenborough.

[morning dew]

Even without knowing who these people are, I could tell that guy was going to get slaughtered as soon as I saw what they were both wearing.

 

Xiaodong’s challenge has not only gained the attention of traditional martial artists, but also one Chinese millionaire, Chen Sheng, who has offered 10 million yuan ($1.45 million) to any tai chi fighter who can defeat Xiaodong. Osipczak says, “If Chen Sheng is serious about his offer, then I would gladly step up to defend the honour of Tai Chi Ch’uan.”

 

He isn’t confident that Xiaodong will be willing to go through with it, though, saying “I don’t think Xu will accept the challenge, because I hear he is a coward and will only take fights he knows he can win!”

 

 

I think this is a great idea, personally. I would be fascinated to see the fight. Is the second paragraph just 'locker-room' talk? I seem to remember 'saving face' is quite big in China. Does Osipczak actually think he will goad Xu into fighting him by calling him a coward?

[Aetherous]

If it is not martial art why using the name of fist (quan) of the ultimate? What is taiji if is not a martial art?

 

A movement practice.

 

Martial arts deal with the art of combat. If something really isn't applicable to that, then I prefer not to think of it as a "martial art".

[Green Tiger]

Even without knowing who these people are, I could tell that guy was going to get slaughtered as soon as I saw what they were both wearing.

 

 

I think this is a great idea, personally. I would be fascinated to see the fight. Is the second paragraph just 'locker-room' talk? I seem to remember 'saving face' is quite big in China. Does Osipczak actually think he will goad Xu into fighting him by calling him a coward?

 

Yeah, I think he was just being cheeky.  I don't think he expects Xu to fight any more of these exhibitions after all of the backlash this one caused in China.  I honestly don't think he'll do it again.  The weight of public opinion is too heavy against him there.

 

That said, Osipczak is still training like he'll continue to fight professionally, so maybe he can prove the efficacy of tai chi against other MMA fighters.  Honestly, I feel like he's already proved it.  He credits tai chi as being an important part of his MMA training.  Not the ONLY part, of course, but its been huge for his ability to stay balanced both mentally and physically.  If you watch his fights, his movements are also a lot more fluid than many of the cage fighters.

[dwai]

The guy in the upper video looked awfully tense to me, and his breathing technique was reminiscent of Sanchin kata as practised in Goju-ryu Karate rather than of anything I ever saw in IMA.

 

I quite liked the second video though - even if the 'attacker' was a student or friend of the master, the skill demonstrated by the latter was impressive.

The first guy is Chen Zhonghua who reaches the practical method of Chen taijiquan. He is legit.