UFC Fighter Says He Will Defend Tai Chi

[morning dew]

Yeah, I think he was just being cheeky.  I don't think he expects Xu to fight any more of these exhibitions after all of the backlash this one caused in China.  I honestly don't think he'll do it again.  The weight of public opinion is too heavy against him there.

 

That said, Osipczak is still training like he'll continue to fight professionally, so maybe he can prove the efficacy of tai chi against other MMA fighters.  Honestly, I feel like he's already proved it.  He credits tai chi as being an important part of his MMA training.  Not the ONLY part, of course, but its been huge for his ability to stay balanced both mentally and physically.  If you watch his fights, his movements are also a lot more fluid than many of the cage fighters.

 

Ah, fair enough. I didn't realise it had caused such a big fuss.

 

I'd be curious to see a decent fight of Osipczak's if you've got a favourite one on YouTube.

Edited May 11, 2017 by morning dew

[morning dew]

Regarding its foundations, Taiji is actually a most excellent martial art. And Taiji masters of yore were renowned for kicking butt. However, the art is rarely being practised with this aim today.

 

As far as it's at all taught as a functional system of fighting, it is self-defence oriented rather than sport oriented. Much like the Southern Shaolin styles, it typically goes for the weakest spots of human anatomy. Which makes it less suitable fot competition fighting, where those targets are outlawed.

 

I don't know enough about Tai Chi fighting, but that's what I remember from doing something like Wing Chun.

 

I used to watch UFC on TV when the Gracie brothers kept winning years ago. Yes, they are talented, but, I agree, it's a bit unfair trying to judge different styles against each other when you're barred from crippling people or fighting to the death lol. Also, it got very boring when they just kept dropping people to the ground and forcing them to submit with locks; that's fine for one-on-one, but against multiple opponents it won't get you very far, IMO.

Edited May 11, 2017 by morning dew

[Zhongyongdaoist]

I haven't followed this thread in detail, but the impression I had from the first posts was that the original video that stimulated this thread was not posted and has not been.  One of our members has posted it here:

Taiji Master fighting MMA guy

And I think it will contribute to the discussion if the original video is analyzed as part of the discussion.

 

My apologies is someone has already posted the original video, but I can't follow every thread here, as closely as I would like, and this does seem apropos.

[Michael Sternbach]

I don't know enough about Tai Chi fighting, but that's what I remember from doing something like Wing Chun.

 

I used to watch UFC on TV when the Gracie brothers kept winning years ago. Yes, they are talented, but, I agree, it's a bit unfair trying to judge different styles against each other when you're barred from crippling people or fighting to the death lol. Also, it got very boring when they just kept dropping people to the ground and forcing them to submit with locks; that's fine for one-on-one, but against multiple opponents it won't get you very far, IMO.

Yes, tournament fighting is always a different beast, no matter how liberal the rules. Taiwanese Kung fu guys got their butt kicked in open Karate contests because they were not allowed to do what they were best at - gouging eyes, kicking groins, ripping ears off, etc. I'm pretty sure that on the street, they would have had the edge over the Karate sportsmen though.

 

And yes, one of the differences between MMA and real fighting is that, in the former, you can safely go to the ground with the opponent without his buddies stomping your head into the floor. It's good to have some ground fighting skills even for the self-defence oriented fighter, however, because real fights sometimes just happen to end up on the ground too.

[dwai]

Yes, tournament fighting is always a different beast, no matter how liberal the rules. Taiwanese Kung fu guys got their butt kicked in open Karate contests because they were not allowed to do what they were best at - gouging eyes, kicking groins, ripping ears off, etc. I'm pretty sure that on the street, they would have had the edge over the Karate sportsmen though.

 

And yes, one of the differences between MMA and real fighting is that, in the former, you can safely go to the ground with the opponent without his buddies stomping your head into the floor. It's good to have some ground fighting skills even for the self-defence oriented fighter, however, because real fights sometimes just happen to end up on the ground too.

 

I remember when someone had once picked up a rock to bash my head in, back in the bad old days...It makes your ability to fight a bit more limited and have to take a step or two back to figure out how to deal with such situations.

[Michael Sternbach]

Talking about Taiji for realistic fighting, that was a main focus of Erle Montaigue:

 

 

Erle always emphasized that you must move into the attacker; once you start moving backwards, you will probably keep doing so, while the opponent keeps coming after you and might very well get you eventually. As the video which is the topic of this discussion demonstrated nicely.

[morning dew]

Talking about Taiji for realistic fighting, that was a main focus of Erle Montaigue:

 

Yeah, now this guy would have been a bit more interesting to watch fighting Xu, IMO.

[Mig]

Hi Windwalker, those 1928 competitions were 'Lei Tai' or 'Leitai'. Can't give you the links now as I did not record the information when I read them years ago. You may have to search studiously. Try also Nanjing Central Kuoshu Academy.

I am afraid those Lei tai stories during that time are more of hearsay than real fight in whatever aspect: bare knuckles, ground fighting, real fight as in real life. There is more fantasy than reality in that part of history

[C T]

I am afraid those Lei tai stories during that time are more of hearsay than real fight in whatever aspect: bare knuckles, ground fighting, real fight as in real life. There is more fantasy than reality in that part of history

Maybe... maybe not

 

 

 

Wiki:

 

History (prior to 1928)[edit]

The lei tai first appeared during the Song dynasty when it was used for boxing and Shuai Jiao exhibition matches and private duels.^[1] According to the Chinese Kuoshu Institute (UK), an ancestor of the lei tai was used during the Qin dynasty to hold Jiao Li wrestling competitions between imperial soldiers. The winner would be chosen to act as a bodyguard to the emperor or a martial arts instructor for the Imperial Military.^[2]

According to Cung Le, a famous Mixed Martial Arts fighter, “In the old days, if you wanted to announce yourself as a boxer in a new village, you built a lei tai, stood on it, and invited all comers to try and knock you off.”^[18] Some fighters issued their challenge in the form of a hand written letter to the person they wished to face.^[11] This form of challenge was illustrated in the movie Fearless, when Jet Li's character challenges another warrior to a fight. The book Ultimate Sparring: Principles & Practices comments, "martial artists conducted ‘Challenge matches’ [on the lei tai] to test each other's skills, because of a personal dispute, or to prove one martial system’s superiority over another system."^[19] Either fighter lost the match and his credibility if he fell, was forced off or was knocked to the floor of the stage. As a result, no one would want to learn boxing from him. The winner of the bout became the "owner of the platform" and remained on stage unless he was forced off himself.^[20] If there were no more challengers, he became the champion and or established the dominance of his style in that area. Another way was to defeat an already established master on the lei tai and then take over his school.

In order to become a champion, a fighter had to defeat countless opponents. For instance, Lama Pai Grandmaster Wong Yan-Lam set up his own lei tai platform in front of Hai Tung Monastery in Guangdong after having worked as a famous bodyguard in Northern China. For 18 days, he fought over 150 other martial artists and was never defeated. According to Hop Gar Grandmaster David Chin, "Either the challenger was maimed or killed. Wong never let one challenger leave his school without injury. He was a master of using the technique of cruelty."^[21] Shortly afterwards, he was elected as the leader of the Ten Tigers of Canton, who were the top ten kung fu men in Guangdong.^[21][22] Eighteenth generation Chen-style t'ai chi Grandmaster Chen Zhao Pi (陈照丕) (1893–1972), third nephew of Chen Fake, set up a platform by Beijing’s “Xuan Wu Men” city gate after an unauthorized article claiming the superiority of Chen-style t'ai chi appeared in the Beijing Times, causing many martial artists to challenge his skills. Over the course of 17 days, he defeated over 200 people and made many friends.^[23][24] If these examples are followed, it took a fighter anywhere from 17–18 days and 150-200 plus consecutive wins to establish their style's dominance in that area. All weapons and boxing matches were conducted without protective gear like the Jissen Kumite (full-contact fighting) of Kyokushin Karate. On top of being forced from or thrown to the floor of the stage, the fights sometimes continued until either boxer conceded defeat, was severely injured and could no longer fight, or was even killed.^[11] One example of a death on stage was described by Hung Gar Grandmaster Chiu Kow (1895–1995), father of Grandmaster Chiu Chi Ling. The fight took place between Hung Gar Master Leng Cai Yuk and a triad boss named Ha Saan fu, who was also a master of Internal martial arts. Because Ha dealt in prostitution, gambling, and drugs, Leng challenged Ha to a lei tai bout to halt the expansion of his criminal territory. Ha accepted the challenge and agreed to leave the area if he lost.

Ha had previously heard of Master Leng’s ability to tear at the flesh of his opponents with his bare hands, so he wrapped his torso with a leather strap prior to the fight. Both men met on the lei tai some time later and signed a contract that stated the fight could end in death. The crowd watched as both initiated combat. After a few moments, Leng (apparently seeing the leather straps through his ripped clothing) bypassed Ha’s armor by forcing his hand down from the top of the wrap and tore out the triad boss’ bowels. When Ha fell dead to the stage, his men tried attacking Leng to exact revenge, but the local police quickly arrested Leng to protect him. He was eventually set free.^[25]

However, the railless architecture of the lei tai allowed a fighter to escape serious injury if they faced a more powerful opponent. All they had to do was leap down from the stage. This constituted a loss, but the boxer lived to fight another day.^[5] Despite this option, the Nationalist government banned the old traditions of private duels on the lei tai in 1928 because too many people were dying.^[5][26]

 

[Sudhamma]

FYI. Leng Cai Yuk,and Haa San Fu were nick-names, not the proper names of the adversaries. Yuk was the surname., 'Leng Cai' means Handsome. Haa San Fu, means the 'Tiger that descends from the mountain'. In the old days, to establish a martial arts style/school requires 'acceptance' by the martial arts community either because of the famous lineage or because he had beaten the daylight off the competition. This is a filtration process to weed out scams. Seriously, not all CMA exponents are good enough to be the last person standing. During the Republic of China days and the end-days of the Qing Dynasty, there were wrestlers and boxers from various countries who put up matches to fight Chinese fighters and the locals had their fair share of loses. Sun Lu Tang, the founder of Sun-style Taijichuan had met such a challenge and beaten his opponent with his Shaolin Luohanchaun, not Taijichuan though.

[windwalker]

I am afraid those Lei tai stories during that time are more of hearsay than real fight in whatever aspect: bare knuckles, ground fighting, real fight as in real life. There is more fantasy than reality in that part of history

Just wondering would you consider the following more fantasy then history.  

 

 

One of Wong's most popular tales is his return to Guangdong. In front of Hai Tung Monastery, Wong set up an elevated stage known as a leitai to accept challenges from any and all comers. Over the course of eighteen days, he defeated over one hundred and fifty challengers. "Either the challenger was maimed or killed," noted Chin.http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=661

Having some knowledge of the style prompts my interest.

 

Lots of CMA styles have origin stories some embellishments some fact..

A lot of the stories never list the challengers. This would be good to know to gauge 

the relative skill being used.

 

Back in the day, the differences in style was often the deciding factor, as opposed to today's times were the fighters tend to use the same skill sets to varying degrees of skill.  The events are also designed to minimize the differences in opponents, skill, size, weight ect in order to make the "contest" more fair not really something considered back in the day. 

Edited May 12, 2017 by windwalker