Taiji Master fighting MMA guy

[Mig]

I've met, and trained with Alex Kozma, and I've never experienced anything like his power from any martial artist. He demonstrated one technique on me where he lightly struck me in the chest with his palm. I literally flew across the room and slammed into the wall at the opposite side, all air leaving my lungs at the same time. Otherworldly and incredible.

Come on, is there a video showing that?

[C T]

Dim Mak and close combat/grappling demo

 

[flowing hands]

Come on now, one's got to be joking! Tai chi vs MMA. 99% of Tai Chi is not taught properly as a combat art. Our TC man should have stood his ground and attacked the legs of the MMA instead of running away. He should have engaged the MMA fighter straight away and not allowed him to start the punches, distracted his upper body with kicks to his lower part until he found a weakness. Instead he let the MMA man just run right over him. Very poor and not a good example of traditional Chinese Martial Arts.

[Mig]

14 hours ago, C T said:

Dim Mak and close combat/grappling demo

 

You gotta be kidding. This is an example that shows how fake and useless are those demos. Back in the 60's and 70s is what we used to see and I was never impressed of their techniques or touch of death. Real fight or sport fight doesn't work that way. Just take a look in this video clip the wooden dummy or the humans dummies, they don't react, they just get hit and slammed. This is the perfect example of videos or demos that give bad reputation to martial arts and don't even try any of that in real life otherwise someone or inexperienced fighter will whoop you big time.. 

[C T]

14 minutes ago, Mig said:

You gotta be kidding. This is an example that shows how fake and useless are those demos. Back in the 60's and 70s is what we used to see and I was never impressed of their techniques or touch of death. Real fight or sport fight doesn't work that way. Just take a look in this video clip the wooden dummy or the humans dummies, they don't react, they just get hit and slammed. This is the perfect example of videos or demos that give bad reputation to martial arts and don't even try any of that in real life otherwise someone or inexperienced fighter will whoop you big time.. 

yeah, it was only a spoof video of some random guy faking it. you know best. 

[Mig]

On 5/14/2017 at 1:35 AM, Michael Sternbach said:

Well, like every person of renown, Erle had both supporters and opponents, of course.

 

But it's very easy to say that 'his theories on Dim Mak and vital point striking (why 'and'? What's the difference between the two?) were laughable', and to mention 'valid reasons' against them, without explaining what those were. What is it that, in your opinion, we know better today?

I am not the only one to say he was a fraud and for what I have seen in videos, not convincing at all. Back in the days with no internet or video clips information, everyone would have been impressed but if you knew or have seen more than one style of martial arts then you would have had a different opinion. This is how we know better today and how we can relate to reality. Furthermore, novels and hearsay was quite common in Chinese martial arts for maybe 100 years. Back in the days before 1949 in China, living or dying in times of political, economical and social turmoil were though and not easy to everyone.

[Brian]

If you ask me...

The moment MMA guy started his advance, TC guy should have pulled his pistol and double-tapped him center-of-mass.

Can never be too careful -- he might have been carrying a piece of fruit.

 

Oh! And then call his attorney...

[thelerner]

I like this commentary on it- https://internalmmablog.wordpress.com/2015/09/13/chinese-martial-artists-disgust-of-mma/

"..

With that in mind, something really bothers me about the TCMA community as it stands now. They have completely refused to accept that MMA is an effective sporting platform in which to test their skills with as little rules as possible for a sanctioned sport within our current society-accepted morals. This troubles me some. In some sense, I do understand that from a self-defense/combative stand-point, fighting on the ground is dangerous, and can be deadly; however, it is completely necessary to learn for fighting in MMA bouts. I know that there is a stigma amongst the Chinese who train in their martial arts that ground fighting is what dogs do, and you don’t want to be a dog (I have had Chinese friends tell me personally that they think MMA fighters are beasts/animals and not even human).

Then there is Chinese Wrestling (Shuai Jiao), which is exclusively done on the feet, with a rule set that if something other than your feet touch the ground, you lose! This is fine, and Shuai Jiao is a fantastic martial art that can add a lot of value to other TCMA, and there is historical evidence that a great deal of masters throughout several Chinese styles would train in Shuai Jiao in addition to their art. Even if we look at several of the forms of different styles, they tactically only make sense in the context of Shuai Jiao..."

 

 

[C T]

7 minutes ago, thelerner said:

I like this commentary on it- https://internalmmablog.wordpress.com/2015/09/13/chinese-martial-artists-disgust-of-mma/

"..

With that in mind, something really bothers me about the TCMA community as it stands now. They have completely refused to accept that MMA is an effective sporting platform in which to test their skills with as little rules as possible for a sanctioned sport within our current society-accepted morals. This troubles me some. In some sense, I do understand that from a self-defense/combative stand-point, fighting on the ground is dangerous, and can be deadly; however, it is completely necessary to learn for fighting in MMA bouts. I know that there is a stigma amongst the Chinese who train in their martial arts that ground fighting is what dogs do, and you don’t want to be a dog (I have had Chinese friends tell me personally that they think MMA fighters are beasts/animals and not even human).

Then there is Chinese Wrestling (Shuai Jiao), which is exclusively done on the feet, with a rule set that if something other than your feet touch the ground, you lose! This is fine, and Shuai Jiao is a fantastic martial art that can add a lot of value to other TCMA, and there is historical evidence that a great deal of masters throughout several Chinese styles would train in Shuai Jiao in addition to their art. Even if we look at several of the forms of different styles, they tactically only make sense in the context of Shuai Jiao..."

 

 

times are a changing, especially in the West. Many schools now include grappling and ground work in their art format, as well as offering knowledge on a variety of martial arts is becoming more mainstream. If you watch the dim mak vid you will see effective groundwork displayed. Have you heard of DK Yoo? With him, its instant knock out, no need to waste time grappling and such. 

 

 

[windwalker]

The Styles within the modern sport events are styles unto themselves. 

What is changing is the way that CMA is being marketed.  The Clash is really between competing markets.  With some instructors not understanding the market they're in.  They attempt to bridge the gap with skill sets not suited for the market they're trying to bridge.

 

[windwalker]

4 hours ago, C T said:

times are a changing, especially in the West. Many schools now include grappling and ground work in their art format, as well as offering knowledge on a variety of martial arts is becoming more mainstream. If you watch the dim mak vid you will see effective groundwork displayed. Have you heard of DK Yoo? With him, its instant knock out, no need to waste time grappling and such. 

 

 

Clips like these are kind of misleading. What most people talk about is people of equal skill sets.  Which is the whole point of many CMA styles, to have or do something very unique and different that would give one the advantage.

What is shown in the clip as someone who is very fast and strong working with those who are not, what happens when the tables are turned.  If one does not understand the style they're working on or in or has not acquired the unique skill sets.  

They have lost any advantage that the style would or could confer to them.  Not good.

Edited May 16, 2017 by windwalker
clarity

[Mig]

2 hours ago, Brian said:

If you ask me...

The moment MMA guy started his advance, TC guy should have pulled his pistol and double-tapped him center-of-mass.

Can never be too careful -- he might have been carrying a piece of fruit.

 

Oh! And then call his attorney...

Watch out he didn't have time to pull out his dim mak repertoire from a 游侠 youxia soldier of fortune novels. Anyways, you cracked me up.

[Brian]

13 minutes ago, Mig said:

Watch out he didn't have time to pull out his dim mak repertoire from a 游侠 youxia soldier of fortune novels. Anyways, you cracked me up.

 

 

Edited May 16, 2017 by Brian

[Sudhamma]

When I first started in TCMA, I used to wonder whether the forms and the moves were relevant in a real fight situation. My sifu used to say that for nan-p'ai practitioners, they need 3 years, and for bei-p'ai, 10 years of intense practice before they could stand on their own. Nei-jia practitioners would need far more than that 10 years. The founder of Baquazhang, GGG..Master Dong Haichuan's first generation of students were martial artists in their own right. The reason was simple to understand in that baquazhang is not a simple series of actions that could be 'auto-piloted' in serious fight situation when faced against experienced fighters. I have always considered that martial arts is an education unto itself. The student should and must understand the purpose, principles and the message that the founder had built into the forms. Like reading a book, the reader should be on level with the author to appreciate the book. However, that is only the first stage in the education as being able to read and appreciate the book do not automatically transform the reader to be a proficient writer nor an accomplished speaker. A lot more reading, training and exposure goes into those things before being really an accomplished author or speaker. So, it is the same with TCMA practitioners. I hope that the allegory is understood.

Ground work seems to be missing in TCMA practice. At best, there is Didang, fighting on the ground, but still no locks and submission holds on the floor. However, the application of locks and holds within the portfolio of Chin-Na requires both strong fingers, wrists, elbows and of course, the waist. These 'tools' of Chin-Na need to be trained effectively, but in addition, a knowledge of specific pressure points, nerves, and joints are required as well. Ground fighting, including rolling, leg-sweeping, swirling kicks from the ground (Zhou-jia call it pan-loong tui, swirling dragon kick) are considered lower basin 'sia pan' techniques and only used when one is in a disadvantage. But, still ground chin-na don't seems to be apparent in sia-pan gungfu. There are two Chinese sayings, 1. When drawing a dragon, the eyes must be dotted; 2. When drawing a picture (human portrait), surely you don't need to draw even the intestines. How are these sayings relevant? In Chin-Na, there is counter Chin-Na, Fan-Chin-Na which has to be taught and practiced in a 2-men set with the partner putting in some resistance to get the feel. In Chin-Na, suai techniques, throws, are practiced and in some, follow-up locks and holds on the ground and the partner should counter before the lock is completed. The application of the waist to exert strength (fa-jing) and the chin-na on the ground needs to be taught (that's saying 1, the student needs to be enlightened) and the locked partner must re-position to counter the lock and hold (that's saying 2, to apply the knowledge intuitively).

Thank you for this thread.

 

[C T]

7 hours ago, windwalker said:

Clips like these are kind of misleading. What most people talk about is people of equal skill sets.  Which is the whole point of many CMA styles, to have or do something very unique and different that would give one the advantage.

What is shown in the clip as someone who is very fast and strong working with those who are not, what happens when the tables are turned.  If one does not understand the style they're working on or in or has not acquired the unique skill sets.  

They have lost any advantage that the style would or could confer to them.  Not good.

I would tend to look at (these) clips for inspiration and to continue to remind myself that if he (or they) can do it, surely its not out of reach for others. Moreover, these displays can be a great reminder never to underestimate an opponent - he or she can always be another DK Yoo - so how do I prepare? In this way its very good. 

He wasn't born fast. He developed it. Moreover, I dont think strength really matters as much as technique in the clip shown. His main emphasis I think shows the need to keep loose at all times, especially around the hips & abdomen, and generate or unleash the power... let it uncoil from there. Most IMA is organised around the same principle. 

What these demos also remind is to steer clear of complacency and keep seeking to be faster, stronger, calmer, and never take things for granted. 

[windwalker]

1 minute ago, C T said:

I would tend to look at (these) clips for inspiration and to continue to remind myself that if he (or they) can do it, surely its not out of reach for others. Moreover, these displays can be a great reminder never to underestimate an opponent - he or she can always be another DK Yoo - so how do I prepare? In this way its very good. 

He wasn't born fast. He developed it. Moreover, I dont think strength really matters as much as technique in the clip shown. His main emphasis I think shows the need to keep loose at all times, especially around the hips & abdomen, and generate or unleash the power... let it uncoil from there. Most IMA is organised around the same principle. 

What these demos also remind is to steer clear of complacency and keep seeking to be faster, stronger, calmer, and never take things for granted. 

Quote

"What these demos also remind is to steer clear of complacency and keep seeking to be faster, stronger, calmer, and never take things for granted. "

How does this fit into 

Quote

In boxing there are myriad schools. Although they differ in form and scale, they can never go beyond reliance on the strong defeating the weak or the swift conquering the slow. Yet these are the result of physical endowments and not practical application and experience. The strong and the quick, however, cannot explain and have no part in the deflection of a thousand pound momentum with a trigger force of four ounces or of an old man defeating a great number of men.

http://www.itcca.it/peterlim/classic1.htm

[C T]

12 minutes ago, windwalker said:

How does this fit into 

http://www.itcca.it/peterlim/classic1.htm

No it wont fit because what I said was in reply to what you said specifically (about how that clip was not useful). 

 

ps. I have witnessed first hand a frail-looking old gentleman single-handedly neutralise 3 guys who were harassing a young lady in a rough part of town (back home, in the 70s, there were certain notorious areas in the city) - he floored all 3 within a couple of minutes. Found out later he was a Tai Chi practitioner of many years. 

Edited May 16, 2017 by C T

[dwai]

5 hours ago, C T said:

I would tend to look at (these) clips for inspiration and to continue to remind myself that if he (or they) can do it, surely its not out of reach for others. Moreover, these displays can be a great reminder never to underestimate an opponent - he or she can always be another DK Yoo - so how do I prepare? In this way its very good. 

He wasn't born fast. He developed it. Moreover, I dont think strength really matters as much as technique in the clip shown. His main emphasis I think shows the need to keep loose at all times, especially around the hips & abdomen, and generate or unleash the power... let it uncoil from there. Most IMA is organised around the same principle. 

What these demos also remind is to steer clear of complacency and keep seeking to be faster, stronger, calmer, and never take things for granted. 

DK Yoo is an IMA guy too. He has a series of videos on what he called "chamjang gong" which I think is Korean for "zhang zhuang gong".

 

in most of his videos he is showing how to move from the waist, fold the kua, move the spine, etc. 

His drills are interesting and he does some using exercise balls etc - a more modern take on internal training (at least the biomechanics part).

[windwalker]

15 minutes ago, dwai said:

DK Yoo is an IMA guy too. He has a series of videos on what he called "chamjang gong" which I think is Korean for "zhang zhuang gong".

 

in most of his videos he is showing how to move from the waist, fold the kua, move the spine, etc. 

His drills are interesting and he does some using exercise balls etc - a more modern take on internal training (at least the biomechanics part).

I think he does what is called Systema ://www.russianmartialart.com/whatis.php  "could be wrong"

I wouldn't call it "internal"  as in Chinese thought on the subject.  Of the systema people I've talked with on line they are very emphatic that what they do  is not based on Chinese thought or theory.

Lived and worked in Korea for a while when it was under martial law many yrs ago, very pretty country, interesting people with their own martial culture.  

Edited May 16, 2017 by windwalker

[windwalker]

The Korean SF guys put on some very cool demos....looks like he does teach Systema ,  interesting art. 

[Marblehead]

8 minutes ago, windwalker said:

Lived and worked in Korea for a while when it was under martial law many yrs ago, very pretty country, interesting people with their own martial culture.  

My first Army assignment to Korea was with a multinational (American/Korean) unit with a reinforced platoon of Koreans from the Tiger Division.  They were bad MFs.

 

[Marblehead]

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=korean+tiger+division+taekwondo&view=detail&mid=AC774E4FF7183561BA1BAC774E4FF7183561BA1B&FORM=VIRE

[windwalker]

8 hours ago, Marblehead said:

My first Army assignment to Korea was with a multinational (American/Korean) unit with a reinforced platoon of Koreans from the Tiger Division.  They were bad MFs.

 

I was there in the 70s in 2ID...the still had martial law at this time  Studied under this teacher for while.  http://www.oocities.org/mantiscave/parkchil.htm  ..The Koreans take their MA very seriously.  I also knew a guy who learned from the  "(제9보병사단), also known as White Horse (백마)"

While he was in Vietnam during the war...yep not people one would want to mess around with..

Regarding the topic of the tread and the many other topics similar to it.  The mind set is very different for the top guys..  They do engage with people just not in public matches...I feel what most people miss out on is that MMA/Sanda  all tend to use the same things.

 Its more about prepping for the event that those who say they rep CMA that IMO dont seem to understand how to do....If your going to swim with sharks, you'd better make sure you can swim, and that your really a shark and not just think you are.

.  Most if not all Chinese arts rely on specialty concepts or ideas...The problem IMO that most often the guys that say they rep a certain style or system are really not the top guys and engage with people way above their own level...notice most if not all the CMA guys are listed as "master" while the MMA or  Sanda guys are just listed as practitioners. 

 

....The top guys wont do it,,,feeling its not needed...very different mind set.

Edited May 16, 2017 by windwalker

[Daeluin]

I recall something my teacher said once a while back, related to the time it takes an external artist to reach their peak of abilities as opposed to the time it takes an internal artist to reach their peak, which is obviously longer, as in decades. When the internal artist reaches their peak they are more powerful.

Also, the internal artist is going to age with the ability to continue practicing their art, while the external artist is going to lose their ability to move in the same ways as they age.

[Taomeow]

I remember my first encounters with the TKD folks.  Asked some of the best if they competed, and the youngsters said yes, and older folks said no.  Why not?  Haven't you won this and that?  Yes, they said, but.  Too traumatic, they said.  Too many broken ribs, knee surgeries, torn ligaments, I've no time or stamina or money to keep getting hurt like that, it's painful and annoying and interrupts my life. 

Same conversations when I started taiji -- asked the best if they competed.  Well, my teacher did when he was around 20, was the champion of Beijing.  He's incomparably more accomplished forty years later.  But how would he prove it to a gaping spectator of sports?..  He would have to compete or else the spectator might suspect he's fake?..  "I was just a kid," he says, explaining the competing past.  I once asked him if he could recommend a good TCM doctor, and he replied, apologetically, "I don't know any doctors at all, I have never been sick." 

Taiji is for grown-ups.  Biological age doesn't matter.  Psychological age of a real taiji player is "adult."  Competitive sports -- "just a kid."  What adults do, some perennial little kids might think of as "fake."  E.g. fighting a battle for not knowing any doctors and winning it, for eliminating as many doctors as possible from your students' lives and winning it...  that's probably part of what's "fake" about taiji, and putting your body through as many pissing contests as it can handle before falling apart to prove you can take the pain and hurt the other guy -- that must be something "real."  At least to some little kids who are fighting with all they've got for their chance to grow old and sick without growing up.