Taiji Master fighting MMA guy

[thelerner]

Early in my training we had an amazing woman who was a assistant sensei.  Her technique was great.. smooth, unlike the main sensei gentle, because she was purely shin shin toistu ki aikido, where he came up the ranks before it was a separate style.  So his technique could be brutal at times. 

Anyway a year or two in, she left Aikido for Kung Fu.  Her new sensei was female, and had won Olympic Gold in TaeKwondo, amazing because it was in Korea that year, and it wasn't her art.  Thankfully the woman would come back every now and then with stories.  One was that her new sensei though still in her twenties was retiring.  Too many aches and pains.  Harsh constant training and competing had given her arthritic symptoms at a young age. 

Without competition and hard sparring its easy your fool oneself.  And with such, comes inevitable injuries. 

 

[Daeluin]

I recall, when being in and out of my training, I would sometimes be dealing with stiffness, aches, pains. And then I'd stop training and feel just fine. I wasn't moving my qi so it was fine to stay stuck in the muscle knots and bones.

 

Thing is, this only lasts so long... as youth fades to age, it becomes harder and hard to ignore the stiffness, and the strength of yuan qi in the body is fading, making these things more apparent and less easy to work out, even when doing qigong.

 

Thankfully I'm still in my 30's, and have learned this lesson. So I go more deeply into my training, work past the more surface level stiffnesses, be gentle with myself and don't force anything, and over time I get deeper and deeper, to the point where I am beginning to understand more circularity with the energies in the body and prevent some of the excesses of energy waste, while simultaneously preventing qi stagnation, or at least attempting to deal with it soon after it develops.

I've much more to prove to myself about learning to stay healthy, with good vitality, than I do by trying to best someone in combat. I get the feeling I've done that plenty in past lives.

 

What is the meaning of being a warrior of peace?

[C T]

There is a limit to learning and mixing various forms of martial arts.

Hence I started looking for something more fundamental, at the heart. 

~ D. K. Yoo ~ 

[Nungali]

Thats what seems to happen .    You  stay flexible, train ,  'move energy' ......    all fine .   Then 'something '  happens , a sickness accident injury , no worries I can get get over that .  And I did . It knocks you back and gradually recover and get what you had back ......    well, 98%   of it .     Next time that happens   its 98% of the 98%   .....   then   95% of that .  Eventually it starts adding up  .... the percentage losses   and the year  gains  . 

 ( Yesterday some people  fantazising about winning lotto ;  "  I'd go here and there ... I'd buy this or that ... I;d give to ....   what about you ?  "      ........  " Me ?   I'd go and buy a massage . " )    

 

[CloudHands]

On 5/14/2017 at 6:44 PM, thelerner said:

Perhaps 40 years from now upon meeting again the Tai Chi master will jog up to the MMA fighter, kick their cane away and shout 'I win!' then quickly jog away.  Ten years after that show up at the MMA fighter's funeral, look down at the casket and say 'I win again'. 

 

 

Some victories are more important then others.

ahahah

[Michael Sternbach]

3 hours ago, Taomeow said:

I remember my first encounters with the TKD folks.  Asked some of the best if they competed, and the youngsters said yes, and older folks said no.  Why not?  Haven't you won this and that?  Yes, they said, but.  Too traumatic, they said.  Too many broken ribs, knee surgeries, torn ligaments, I've no time or stamina or money to keep getting hurt like that, it's painful and annoying and interrupts my life. 

Same conversations when I started taiji -- asked the best if they competed.  Well, my teacher did when he was around 20, was the champion of Beijing.  He's incomparably more accomplished forty years later.  But how would he prove it to a gaping spectator of sports?..  He would have to compete or else the spectator might suspect he's fake?..  "I was just a kid," he says, explaining the competing past.  I once asked him if he could recommend a good TCM doctor, and he replied, apologetically, "I don't know any doctors at all, I have never been sick." 

Taiji is for grown-ups.  Biological age doesn't matter.  Psychological age of a real taiji player is "adult."  Competitive sports -- "just a kid."  What adults do, some perennial little kids might think of as "fake."  E.g. fighting a battle for not knowing any doctors and winning it, for eliminating as many doctors as possible from your students' lives and winning it...  that's probably part of what's "fake" about taiji, and putting your body through as many pissing contests as it can handle before falling apart to prove you can take the pain and hurt the other guy -- that must be something "real."  At least to some little kids who are fighting with all they've got for their chance to grow old and sick without growing up. 

The thing is:

[Taomeow]

51 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

The thing is:

 

I've met several former hardcore karate and MMA folks who are currently the students of a taiji master in his early 90s, someone who has no internet presence (I know of him because a friend of mine is his disciple).  They practically can't shut up when they talk about how this teacher turned their world inside out, upside down from the first demo of what he can do to them.  I've met this crowd at a few parties (I'm not part of the crowd) and it's always the same -- they have a few drinks and  start telling those stories, interrupting each other, corroborating each other's experiences if they were witnesses, eyes wide with amazement and awe, and they can't shut up.  Unless it's a conspiracy to fool me specifically, consistently maintained for years, I tend to believe the stories.  And the moral of the story is always the same:  you know nothing about top level martial skill unless you meet a top level taiji master willing to show you.  

 

What I know about him is, he's been practicing taiji for 80 years, and every night he gets up at 3 am and meditates for several hours, then does taiji for several hours, then goes about his day.  He often travels to Southeast Asia where he decided to make himself known to the public only when he turned 80, and since then had been a superstar in the martial circles, so they keep inviting him and he doesn't mind flying this kind of distance for the red carpet treatment.  If you know of a "pain or glory" 90-year-old who has a similar lifestyle, I'd be really curious to find out who he or she is. 

[Daeluin]

14 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

The thing is:

My teacher, early in his training, would explore different external styles, looking for the right style for him. He's a sincere person, and learned all he could from these styles before he'd move on. One such style (I don't remember the name), required taking blows during training. They learned to do their forms while being hit all over their body, and did it well.

 

However, they were also required to trade blows with each other, and he'd often be faced against someone three feet taller than him who likely looked much like the quoted caricature. At some point he became a little frustrated with the futility of standing there and taking the punch, so he started disappearing. He just wouldn't be there. His teachers got upset about it, but his point was more that if it's about winning and losing, they couldn't win if they couldn't hit him.

 

I think this may have been one starting point for his looking for internal styles, which were difficult to find back then. Today he teaches us to be invisible in two-person work. Another story is from when he was at a (I think it was silk reeling) seminar, and one of the sessions was push hands. At this point he had already developed some internal skill, and due to his sincere practice it was pretty refined. He agreed to participate, and it wasn't long before people started saying "hey, did you practice with him? It's like he isn't even there." And the next night he didn't return to the push-hands session. There wasn't much point, and nothing to prove.

 

Back in college, I had a friend in the Aikido club, and would show up from time to time. One of the teachers was a little old lady, so pleasant to be around. Not very strong at all, not much over 5 feet tall. But her skill was high. It didn't matter if people tried to use force on her, they'd just find it used against them. Pretty much the same principle of not being there, but while also adeptly leading the opponents force as they try to find you.

 

These are refined skills, that take sincere time and careful practice to develop, often under the instruction of a good teacher.

[Taomeow]

8 hours ago, Daeluin said:

people started saying "hey, did you practice with him? It's like he isn't even there." 

 

 

I've pushed hands with people like that.  It messes you up in the head.  He doesn't literally disappear -- he's visible, looking solid right in front of you, you see your hands touching his, but the picture is not sinking in correctly because the touch is not registering.  Against your push he uses going below your sensory radar.  You push, your eyes say "we see you push him," your hands say "we feel pushing nothing," your mind says "well, guys, make up your mind.  Is he there or not?  Who do I listen to?  Who do I trust?"

 

Exquisite.     

 

The remedy for this kind of an opponent is...  well, like cures like.  Forget "be like water."  Be like water that evaporates on contact and knows in advance when and where and how the contact is going to take place before the contacting party knows it. 

 

You can't fake this kind of non-presence, you have to genuinely remove yourself from the picture before it is believed by the opponent's sensory radar.  The simple explanation for the peculiarity of IMA so ridiculed by the those-who-don't-get-it party is this.  A low/intermediate skill is neither pointless nor extraordinary, but demoing it under the wrong circumstances is extraordinarily pointless because it is a stage in a rather complex and usually lengthy process, not its outcome.  The outcome this process leads toward is high level skill -- and that's a qualitative jump, not quantitative.  The Supreme Ultimate Fist is not in Kansas anymore, Toto.  

Edited May 17, 2017 by Taomeow

[C T]

speaking of supreme ultimate fist reminds of Sifu Didier Beddar... 

 

I'll let this clip speak for how 'empty' (as in, hard to follow) his speed is to his sparring partners... 

 

Edited May 17, 2017 by C T

[windwalker]

There seems to be a confusion between method used, the one who uses it, and level of use. 

 

With CMA, this has been on going and long standing.  The basic complaint that many voice is that what is trained is often not put to use when used as in boxing, judo, TKD or many other arts.  

 

 CMA seem to hold a mystique for many that seems to force them some how to find examples of it in use,  outside themselves. 

Something I never understand.  

 

Even if someday, somehow, someway, some CMA guy, manages to beat an MMA  guy, boxer what ever in a very clear and distinctive way, The only thing that will happen will be that who ever the CMA guy beat skill sets will start to be questioned its a no win, either way....If he loses thats a given, if he wins the guy wasn't good enough...

 

 

 

 

Edited May 17, 2017 by windwalker
clarity

[C T]

The thing to really bear in mind though, is that many (most?) MMA fighters derive their skills from training in a variety of Eastern arts.. Muay Thai, Jiu-jitsu, aikido, judo, Hung Gar Chuan, Wing Chun... they have more options at their disposal and should be more adaptable if they are committed to the trainings. Hence why its called MMA. Chinese martial artists tend to be loyal to one tradition, or two at most. Ultimately, its hard to pitch one against the other because the motivations of the two are vastly different.

[Marblehead]

3 hours ago, C T said:

speaking of supreme ultimate fist reminds of Sifu Didier Beddar... 

 

I'll let this clip speak for how 'empty' (as in, hard to follow) his speed is to his sparring partners... 

Among a lot of other things, I love his crossed lower arms block.

 

[flowing hands]

Yes good with the hands, Wing Chun usually are, their weakness is the straight line and they can't kick above the waist as aptly shown on the vid; the sifu was well off balance and recovered badly. All arts have a weakness in them where each art specialises in one particular area of skills, which leaves some skills under practiced. In proper martial training, iron palm/fist/arm is practiced as a matter of the norm. One can't hit bone and expect ones own bones not to be damaged if they are not properly conditioned. This involves the gradual use of aids and trad. medicines to repair the damage. In our original vid, if the TC man had trained the arms and hands he would inflict quite heavy punishment to the arms of the MMA and he may have stop his attack after the first few punches. But TC do not train like this and rely on the softer way which is ok if you practice the softer way fully martially.

[Taomeow]

@C T Thank you for the demo.  Noticed a "like water" moment at 3:02 -- an example of why a skilled taiji punch can't be blocked.  It just flows over the block, like water would, "spills" on top of it and reaches the target behind it anyway.  

 

 

[Mig]

10 hours ago, C T said:

speaking of supreme ultimate fist reminds of Sifu Didier Beddar... 

 

I'll let this clip speak for how 'empty' (as in, hard to follow) his speed is to his sparring partners... 

 

I have two options:

1. Just read and say I am impressed

2. Total useless

As for the 1st option, I will lie or lie myself, not a a good Daoist, I would say, and as for the 2nd nothing he's showing is useless in real life, real street fight, real fight or competitive fight. It is amazing there still people believing in these fake demos and trying to impress with names as wing chun kyun all over. Be real my friend!!

Edited May 17, 2017 by Mig

[C T]

19 minutes ago, Mig said:

I have two options:

1. Just read and say I am impressed

2. Total useless

As for the 1st option, I will lie or lie myself, not a a good Daoist, I would say, and as for the 2nd nothing he's showing is useless in real life, real street fight, real fight or competitive fight. It is amazing there still people believing in these fake demos and trying to impress with names as wing chun kyun all over. Be real my friend!!

You are a good Daoist. And Im not lying.. These demos are useless and you shouldn't even bother to watch and comment. 

[Starjumper]

3 hours ago, flowing hands said:

Yes good with the hands, Wing Chun usually are, their weakness is the straight line and they can't kick above the waist.

 

Wan Kam Leung kicks opponents in the head all the time and he's the top Wing Chun guy.  It also appears he's doing some straight line stuff too, hmmm ... ?

 

 

Edited May 17, 2017 by Starjumper

[dwai]

This gentleman seems to know what he's talking about --

 

 

 

[Golden Dragon Shining]

Quote

 

Fighting Arts1 week ago

Update: A Chinese multi-millionaire has put up a $1m bounty to defend the dignity of traditional martial arts. Numerous other kung fu experts have challenged Xu Xiadong, including "Shaolin Monk" Yi Long, aka the greatest fighter that ever lived.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 18, 2017 by Golden Dragon Shining

[flowing hands]

19 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

Wan Kam Leung kicks opponents in the head all the time and he's the top Wing Chun guy.  It also appears he's doing some straight line stuff too, hmmm ... ?

 

 

This may be more unusual than the norm. Most WC, which is primarily a Southern art, concentrate on the arm techniques and lower kicks to below the waist. Northern arts are more 'aerial' and tend to have high kicking and do not attack only from the straight line, unlike WC. Northern arts have turned into many varieties as they have been taught to different peoples, for example Karate, which was originally called 'China hand' or ' the hand of Han'. Originally Northern Black Crane.

[Nungali]

Really ?  Tell me more. In my tradition which karate came out of, in  Okinawa ( before Funakoshi ) it  is based on a large component of white crane and they used to go and train in Southern China  at Fukien .

 

An early influence in its development was  via  Kusanku  ( Kwang Shang Fu )   lived in Fukien ( and most likely trained there ) before working in Okinawa as a Chinese envoy .  

 

Another major influence was through 'Chinto' , a Chinese  sailor / pirate , but it isnt clear if his origin is northern or southern.  The kata that represents some of his style ....  and that had no high kicks in it until Funakoshi added them and fiddled wiht the whole pattern and turned it into   Gankaku    (for   Japan )  and now supposedly relates to a ''crane on a rock'    (  which is all out of context, the central crane kata is Hakutsuru and Chinto is a close quarters / indoor /  holding high ground kata .   Although,  perhaps Funakoshi's  'rock'  represents the higher ground  ? )

 

Also, I thought the difference in white from black crane was that white had a lot of introduced grapple / throw  techniques, Okinawan  traditional karate also has this   ( but it was removed by Funakoshi  and replaced with series if obscure movements with no related bunkai taught .  )

 

I cant see a northern or black crane influence in any of this . 

 

 

 

Edited May 18, 2017 by Nungali

[C T]

In Cantonese, Karate is known as 'Hoong Sau Dao', which translates as 'The way of the empty hand'. 

[Nungali]

Curious  .... in Okinawa it used to mean  ' Chinese Hand '  and it was supposedly changed by a;tering the kanji to mean 'empty hand '  to mask the Chinese origin that the Japanese would not like .  

 

But I no scholar on it . 

[C T]

me no scholar too 

not much i know about the historical derivatives of karate except that its true origin is said to be India, thanks to Bodhidharma for doing what he does best, its now established in Japan. But the Japanese seldom mention Karate's history that far back. 

 

I am to know that 'Kara' means 'empty' and 'te' means 'hand'.