Taiji Master fighting MMA guy

[cold]

I try to approach all with respect, sadly it is unearned very quickly, by people.

[Marblehead]

9 minutes ago, cold said:

I try to approach all with respect, sadly it is unearned very quickly, by people.

Fair approach.  Don't give up on the perspective just because some don't measure up to your expectations.

 

[cold]

Yup, sadly the greatest and majority of disappointments in my life involve people.

Age has modified (lessened) my expectations and therefore my disappointments.

[Brian]

Expectations are attachments.

[Marblehead]

2 minutes ago, Brian said:

Expectations are attachments.

That is true.  But in real life we need to have some.  What would a drill be worth without any drill bits?

 

[cold]

Assumptions for example assuming someone will do what they say are sadly an expectation.

Now I have never been bitten by a dog without warning, sadly but truly often the bite is preceded by a bark, and bite is worse than bark.

Now when I use a an attachment on my vacuum cleaner and it does what was advertised meets my expectation I'm satisfied.

[Dioni]

I have found this comment on the same video on Youtube. What do you think about that?

Quote

Hey guys I'm Chinese and I know the whole thing let me explain. The so-called taichi master, Lei Lei, in the 10 second fight is literally NOT a master. All his career is deceiving the public and tell everyone he is a kungfu master. Actually he is just FAKE as fxxk. He performs bullshits like hitting watermelons and making birds don't fly. The MMA guy, Xu Xiaodong, decided to expose his lies so he challenged him. Xu also decided to challenge all the fake Kung Fu "masters". Unfortunately, Xu's method is illegal and he makes the powerful Kung Fu Union angry so now he has been stopped by force.

 

[windwalker]

Thoughts from the past 

 

" The civil quality is the inner principle. The martial quality is the outward skill. Those who have the outward skill but lack the civil principle will be consumed by reckless glory. Discarding the original purpose of the art, they will try to overpower opponents and inevitably lose.

 

Those on the other hand who have the civil principle but lack the outward skill will be distracted by meditative expectation. They will have no idea what to do in a fight, and they will be destroyed the moment it turns chaotic. To apply this art upon an opponent, you must understand both the civil and martial qualities."

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.com/2013/09/14/explaining-taiji-principles-taiji-fa-shuo/

 

"They will have no idea what to do in a fight, and they will be destroyed the moment it turns chaotic."

 

Which is exactly what happens, will happen and continues to happen when people do not understand the what, how, and why of their training.   Why is  it that most people do not seek answers from noted past masters of the art who used to, and did take on  challenges to show case their arts.

 

They did not offer push hands, with challengers  

 

"Given that he invited Yang on the basis of his reputation as a great fighter, this question was a veiled insult. Yang replied that there were only three kinds of people he could not defeat: men of brass, men of iron and men of wood. "

 

what happened to taiji ?

 

 

[windwalker]

21 minutes ago, Dioni said:

I have found this comment on the same video on Youtube. What do you think about that?

 

 

 

That there are people with real skills whom the mma guy did not challenge.

That to embarrass China in such  a public manor was not a smart move...

 

See how well it worked for the MMA guy,,,The taiji teacher will go back to teaching,

What will the MMA guy go back to, if he can at all...

 

China is in the process of updating its arts to better fit into the current format, yes there are teachers 

who even being teachers may not understand what they'er actually teaching. 

 .

[9th]

1 hour ago, windwalker said:

yes there are teachers who even being teachers may not understand what they'er actually teaching. 

 

yes...........  sorta writes itself, doesnt it

[Dioni]

Quote

CHINESE MARTIAL ARTISTS ORDERED TO STOP BOUTS

China’s General Administration of Sports banned a number of practices, still in reaction to the bout between a MMA fighter and a Taiji practitioner who had created his own style. They have prohibited: creating one’s own style, organizing a fight without a permit, “malicious attacks,” slander or discrimination against others, claiming to be the “authentic” successor of a style, accepting apprentices, “making inappropriate remarks,” creating and spreading rumors, and fabricating certificates for athletes, coaches, and judges.

Bureaucrats seem unimaginative no matter where you go in the world. As usual, it’s not hard to see the government motivation. After all, the defeated Taiji fighter was apparently favored by the authorities. In other words, their boy lost.

The Taiji fighter, Wei Lei “was described by state media as one of China’s greatest tai chi masters . . .” But puzzlingly, it was Wei who created his own style—one that was proven ineffective.

Part of martial arts is fighting. Granted, it’s not for everyone. Fights should be controlled and bouts should have stringent rules, a referee, medical care standing by, and a fair setting. There is also plenty of room for more casual sparring under controlled situations so that everyone can progress without risking any permanent damage to themselves. But instead of working to clarify the situation, the Chinese government is obviously intent on their typical goals: control, suppression of controversy, and avoiding embarrassment.

I have to agree with the last line of the acticle: “Wei was too weak to represent Chinese kung fu.”

This is Deng Ming-Dao

 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

They are using the incident as a smoke-screen to impose strict restrictions on uninvolved martial artists.

 

That is sad and outrageous.

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, Dioni said:

I have found this comment on the same video on Youtube. What do you think about that?

 

 

His 'method is illegal '   ? 

 

But I get the rest   ... a  vid like this one ;

 

 

except in this case , I believe the 'master' issued a challenge    ( the fool !   )     . This vid also appears with title 'Fake Aikido Master .... "     all one would have to do would be remove the 'fake ' word, and peeps not knowing much about Aikido would be poo-pooing it after watching this

 

... besides, there are already plenty of vids showing how aikido does not work in MMA   

 

So ;  " Fake Tai-chi Master creamed by MMA guy  "    seems to work .

[Nungali]

but how the hell did he get the designation ? !     "   “was described by state media as one of China’s greatest tai chi masters . . .”

Makes the 'state media look pretty crap !

 

[Nungali]

But ... wtf  with these guys  ???  and their 'supporters '   ?

 

Loud mouth Yank makes a good point     ;

 

 

[windwalker]

5 hours ago, Nungali said:

but how the hell did he get the designation ? !     "   “was described by state media as one of China’s greatest tai chi masters . . .”

Makes the 'state media look pretty crap !

 

 

totally agree, you should look at the US state media.....and what they say...

makes em look like  "fake news" 

[Sudhamma]

9 hours ago, Dioni said:

They have prohibited: creating one’s own style, organizing a fight without a permit, “malicious attacks,” slander or discrimination against others, claiming to be the “authentic” successor of a style, accepting apprentices, “making inappropriate remarks,” creating and spreading rumors, and fabricating certificates for athletes, coaches, and judges.

Chinese martial arts, aka Wushu collectively, is a treasured national heritage, Guoshu, National Art. Like TCM, it is a national heritage. The Chinese Government is right to protect the congeniality of Guoshu by disallowing any Chang San, Lee Si to make claims to scam the public or to instigate unrest between practitioners and trainers. The bout between Wei Lei, a taiji practitioner and Xu Xiao Dong, the MMA guy, happened because of claims of martial prowess by the former. it was to the detriment of Wei Lei to accept the challenge when he had no credible fight experience. Learning a martial arts form is not the same as using it in a real fight situation. Knowing how to apply the moves in the training room with a compliant non-resisting student is not comparable to knowing how to apply them in real situations. Besides having a fight experience, the fighter must be bold, he must have stamina and physical strength (put away those nei-jia/taiji talk), and then last of all, kungfu, the least important. This 'kungfu' is not how many sets or forms or styles that one learns, but the discipline, effort, time and commitment that the fighter puts into his training. As is said, "it is not the person who practised 10,000 kicks that i'm afraid of, it is the one who practised one kick 10,000 times I'm afraid of", that's what is meant by kungfu. Kungfu is useless if the fighter do not have the guts nor the stamina and strength to match the competition.

 

In the Nanking leitai competition organised by Nanking Guoshu Central Academy in the late 1920s (1928?), the competition rules were based on tradition: no holds barred except for prohibited attacks to neck, eyes and groin. The Academy was sponsored by Kuomingtang, the government-of-the-day to select 'credible' martial artists to train the troops and the citizenry in the war against Japan.  it was also from this leitai competition that 5 (winners of various categories) were selected to go south to Guangdong to teach the Northern styles. In the first day (or first two days), a number of fighters were killed and the traditional rules were hastily modified initiating the precursor of the 'sports' version, sanda which became popular half a century later. For a CMA style to be established in the traditional martial arts circle, the founder must prove the effectiveness of his art, like Bruce Lee of his Jeet Koon Do. There is no certification system, and no belt system to verify that the style is authentic or the founder or trainer is authentic in CMA, only a system of fight and win, and most CMA schools were established in this manner: example, Tong bei vs Shaolin, and Tong bei won. The Shaolin guy who lost went back to the temple for a couple of years (3 years?) and later sought to avenge his defeat. This time, he won and established his 7-Star Praying Mantis. Others won their authenticity through wars and battles, Hung-jia, and Choy Li Fut were two of the many, fighting as rebels/insurgents against the Qing Dynasty (and to reestablish the Ming Dynasty).

 

Those prohibitions by the Chinese Government is reasonable and understandable. For Wei Lei to establish his Taiji school, he should fight his way up without having to stage any leitai. Do it the old way.

 

[aden]

On 5/20/2017 at 5:45 AM, Marblehead said:

Having four arms would give you a distinct advantage.

 

 

Some practitioners say that Tan Tui is a method for training to use the legs as effectively as arms, effectively giving the practitioner "four arms".   

 

Anyways, I don't see this "revolution" of MMA trying to prove Chinese Martial arts to be ineffective as a big deal. The martial arts world has always been full of frauds and crooked marketing tactics, in both past and present. (there are records mentioning this, even during the Ming dynasty.).

 

Actual, dedicated martial arts teachers and practitioners will continue to train diligently and retain their knowledge. That's what matters most, from my perspective.

[windwalker]

I view a lot of these discussions in the context of those trying to preserve traditions versus those trying to see if the tradition is still effective in today's environment.

 

In many cases that which brought the style or tradition to come in the first place is no longer valid.  MMA, sanda ECT while modern Proving Grounds are also Styles unto themselves dedicated to working in one type of environment and one context.  

 

They lack the cultural connotations and Traditions of traditional styles of the past.  It is up to the person practicing to understand what why they are practicing for. 

 

 

 

 

[windwalker]

MMA or mixed martial arts are just that mixed martial arts used by the practitioner added to their natural advantage s.

 

Martial styles on the other hand are tactics and skill sets designed around an idea that is thought to give one an advantage based on the style over the natural advantage s that each person may have.

 

In each case the assumption s should be tested.  For most traditional styles this type of testing stopped long ago.

 

 

[windwalker]

2 hours ago, aden said:

Anyways, I don't see this "revolution" of MMA trying to prove Chinese Martial arts to be ineffective as a big deal. The martial arts world has always been full of frauds and crooked marketing tactics, in both past and present. (there are records mentioning this, even during the Ming dynasty.).

 

 

A very informative work that speaks to many of the thoughts here and offers a historical insight as to why things are the way they are now.

 

Quote

What you do see in northern China in the 18^th and increasingly in the 19^th century are traveling martial arts teachers.  They would have a circuit and would go from one village festival to the next.  Festivals often corresponded with the selling of crops so these were rare times when peasants had disposable income.

 

Such individuals would set up outdoor boxing grounds, give demonstrations, sell medicine, and (if they were better known) recruit students and hold classes.  This sort of rural instruction at outdoor boxing grounds is precisely how some of the most important styles in Northern Chinese hand combat, such as Hong Quan and Plum Blossom Boxing, were spread.  Esherick has even written short biographies on a number of these sorts of instructors which can be found in his volume on the Boxer Uprising.

 

 

Quote

Having seen quite a bit of real conflict in their lives I think that these individuals knew exactly what the martial arts were, and none of them were too attached to traditional institutions.  Rather their loyalty lay with the goals that those institutions were meant to accomplish.  When times changed they simply created new teaching structures.

It seems that later generations of hand combat students, more concerned with identity formation than survival, came to see “traditionalism” as a goal in itself.  This is a very different attitude than what we see exhibited in the lives of most of the early 20th century martial arts masters.  While some of these individuals may have been socially conservative, as a group they are better characterized by their pragmatism.

https://chinesemartialstudies.com/2013/01/10/lives-of-the-chinese-martial-artists-4-sun-lutang-walking-forward-but-looking-back-at-the-dawn-of-the-modern-chinese-martial-arts-part-ii/

 

"see “traditionalism” as a goal in itself."  

 

In China this is changing, slowly but it is changing..

With the new formats to show case their arts,  they'er still coming to terms with how to change and adapt with out losing the central and core concepts of the traditional arts. 

 

a good read for anyone interested in the history.

 

Edited November 16, 2017 by windwalker

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, aden said:

 

Some practitioners say that Tan Tui is a method for training to use the legs as effectively as arms, effectively giving the practitioner "four arms".   

 

 

 

I was just starting to get into that side of things   when the hip started to play up , since then, and now even with a metal replacement ....  nope !

 

The thing is  .... why block , control, capture ,  a kick  coming in from a lower position, with hands or arms ?  Makes more sense to use the legs feet and keep hands and legs free.   We had four basic ones which I can now do again, and  simple 'front jamb' .   

 

(I got my boss a beauty with one ... we would throw surprise techniques at each other at work for a joke ... one time, he comes up to me , with his GF on arm, and tries a front kick to my groin, I slapped it out the way with my foot while shifting off line and flicked my toe  into his groin .... its quick !    He goes   "You bastard ! "  and laughed and she goes  "Hey !  dont damage that ! "

 

 

We used to do 'sticky feet' standing on one leg  ( foot and leg version of 'sticky hands ' )  but those days are gone for me now  . 

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, windwalker said:

MMA or mixed martial arts are just that mixed martial arts used by the practitioner added to their natural advantage s.

 

Martial styles on the other hand are tactics and skill sets designed around an idea that is thought to give one an advantage based on the style over the natural advantage s that each person may have.

 

In each case the assumption s should be tested.  For most traditional styles this type of testing stopped long ago.

 

 

 

Not in my expereince ; teacher had a VAST range of techniques and always stressed to adapt or adopt to one's natural advantage .

 

Sounds like you are on the trad defensive here ?       I dont know why you seem to think original forms of martial arts were like that , before they got turned into a 'cultural performance ' ? 

 

 

 

[windwalker]

17 minutes ago, Nungali said:

I dont know why you seem to think original forms of martial arts were like that , before they got turned into a 'cultural performance ' ? 

 

You might try reading history of  my previous post and make your own conclusions.

What happened, why and how it happened is pretty well documented. 

 

"Cultural performance"  read the link I posted.

 

".. Over the course of eighteen days, he defeated over one hundred and fifty challengers. "Either the challenger was maimed or killed," noted Chin. "He never let one challenger leave his school without injury. He was a master of using the technique of cruelty." There are four principles for Hop Gar: cruelty, evasion, penetration and interception.

 

When asked about cruelty, Chin stoically quotes the Lama White Crane kung fu classics: "When hunting a tiger, destroy it. Otherwise, a wounded tiger will return to harm you. When weeding a garden, pull up the roots. Otherwise, the weeds will grow back. Whether the lion is hunting an elephant or a rabbit, the lion always uses full force."

 

"Are they really making anything that much different compared to other old styles? Maybe not. Kung fu, after all, is just two hands, two feet and the body. That's it. Different styles specialize on different techniques and usually these people don't pick them up. They don't know how to use them.

 

For example, tongbei is different than regular kung fu. It's the way they use the power, the way they deliver momentum and striking force. That's what makes it outstanding.  the style itself is thought to confer a unique advantage that other methods do not have. I don't say that these new styles are bad kung fu or anything like that. I always say 'Whatever you do, I don't want. Whatever I do and you don't know - that's how we win.'"http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=661

 

another  article that gives an overview given from the perspective of one of the few modern

day teachers adapting their art to the ring.  David Chin.   

 

As to being defensive I thought we were sharing views, just sharing a little of what I found not defending

no promoting anything.   no need for it. 

 

walked my own path seeking my own answers for many yrs

always welcome new and different view points.    https://journeytoemptiness.com/

 

 

 

 

Edited November 16, 2017 by windwalker

[aden]

50 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

I was just starting to get into that side of things   when the hip started to play up , since then, and now even with a metal replacement ....  nope !

 

The thing is  .... why block , control, capture ,  a kick  coming in from a lower position, with hands or arms ?  Makes more sense to use the legs feet and keep hands and legs free.   We had four basic ones which I can now do again, and  simple 'front jamb' .   

 

Well hopefully my joints and flexibility will continue (or progress) to become stronger, regardless of age - as I train internal work. It's a wild dream, but looking at certain old and experienced masters moving with impeccable agility and grace (that I can only dream of) really motivates me.

 

 

 

And definitely agree with the second paragraph. I did hear that "leg deflections" - blocking and deflecting attacks with leg work - was an integral art in Northern long arm styles, which has almost died out today. But more the reason to acquire and train that valuable skill. And "sticky feet" sounds very interesting.

 

I also think the emphasis on skills such as "leg deflections" or "sticky feet" is the reason why Northern long arm styles stress certain elements so much, such as crane stance variations and crescent kicks. (these movements were definitely used with such skills in mind).