Is Tai chi fake?

[Taomeow]

Timing is everything.

[windwalker]

On 5/27/2017 at 1:34 PM, Taomeow said:

Timing is everything.

 

[Taomeow]

32 minutes ago, windwalker said:

 

 

Exactly!   Key word "commitment."  Nice metaphor.

 

Reminded me of the story the great master Hong Junsheng told about encountering, and bowing to, "the great master Watermelon."  He was just walking home late at night, in a dark alley, and this being China, he should have, but didn't, expect to step on a slippery watermelon rind in the dark.  He was "committed" to stepping on solid ground.  What "attacked" him and caused him to fall was this commitment. 

 

This moment of expectation in the opponent is what good taiji detects faster than the opponent knows he's going to want to do "that," and turns into the moment of overwhelmingly "owning" him because it removes (with perfect timing at that) whatever the opponent has committed to confronting.  The opponent is invested, committed to overpowering "that" -- and you don't give him "that," that which he has mounted his offense against.  So it doesn't matter how powerful his attack is, he won't be able to bring it into contact with anything it is ready for.  Just like the simple removal of the chair from under the expectant butt causes the latter to land on the ground.  The chair didn't kick him in the butt, nor did the floor.  He did it to himself.  

[windwalker]

My teacher used to tell a person to stand some 6 feet from him.

He would ask the other person to try to do anything...Before the person started to move

he would say " you want to kick, you want to punch"  ect...essentially they could not move without him knowing ahead of their being conscious of it.   

 

People often talk of "kong jin" empty power not realizing that it works both ways....The empty power  "intention"

can be detected before it manifest itself in movement. 

 

 

Although his terminology is a little different the meaning and application is the same. 

A long time student of his and good friend of mine used to accompany me in my trips to Beijing to work with my teacher. 

 

He felt what was being taught in Beijing  was the same, only at a higher level, found the similarities in the work quite interesting. 

 

Edited May 31, 2017 by windwalker

[Marblehead]

TaoMeow's story reminded me of this story:

 

http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhism/C - Zen/Stories/The Cucumber Sage/The Cucumber Sage.htm

[Taomeow]

Yeah...  And I was reminded of this Indiana Jones episode:

 

 

[Marblehead]

Yeah, I always have liked that scene.  The right tool for the job.

 

[Orion]

I've been learning tai chi for a couple of months now and I'm really enjoying it. I love the physical alignments it demands. My posture has gotten a lot better and I feel a lot more grounded.

 

Maybe I wouldn't win against an MMA fighter even as a master, but I am sure learning a lot about myself and building my confidence in my body.

 

These videos are just a macho pissing contest.

[Rara]

On 2017-5-20 at 11:41 AM, Marblehead said:

My Tai Chi is so bad I would have just pulled my .38 and shoot the MMA guy before he got close enough to hit me.

 

 

Modern day weaponary - good answer.

 

Can we really judge an ancient martial art's effectiveness when it's up against something so evolved?

[Rara]

52 minutes ago, Orion said:

I've been learning tai chi for a couple of months now and I'm really enjoying it. I love the physical alignments it demands. My posture has gotten a lot better and I feel a lot more grounded.

 

Maybe I wouldn't win against an MMA fighter even as a master, but I am sure learning a lot about myself and building my confidence in my body.

 

These videos are just a macho pissing contest.

 

Yep.

 

If you're a Taoist or Tai Chi master, broadcasting yourself wouldn't really be top priority.

[Rara]

On 2017-5-24 at 5:47 PM, Mig said:

Here something that many people don't like to hear or don't want to hear or don't want to admit

 

 

 

Despite Joe's annoyingness from time to time, he knows his stuff.

 

Wing Chun now for me is trained for tradition, almost like a dance. For effective fighting, I have begun Muay Thai and some traditional wrestling and I already feel a better fighter after 3 months than I did after 5 years of Wing Chun.

 

I do Wu Style Tai Chi for stretching, balance and internal wellbeing, nothing more.

Edited May 31, 2017 by Rara

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, Rara said:

 

Modern day weaponary - good answer.

 

Can we really judge an ancient martial art's effectiveness when it's up against something so evolved?

 

Ah, yes, we can.  It's taoists who invented gunpowder, remember?  They proceeded to develop the grenade, 300 years before the West learned about the invention.  They (taoist inventors) tested it, ascertained its efficiency, and advised the emperor to refrain from adopting this technology for warriors on the grounds that "this is the cowardly weapon of demons, which human beings must not infect themselves with."  China changed its stance on gunpowder only after Europeans promptly embraced it and put to military use on first exposure.  

 

Yes, we can judge an ancient martial art on human terms.  Demonic weapons are in a different category altogether.  An entity with a firearm might use it successfully against a taiji master's skill, but not before it has lost its human nature (and quite possibly a helluva lot more.)  

Edited May 31, 2017 by Taomeow

[Wu Ming Jen]

The most deceptive martial art

"Grasshopper, you have much to learn...the Mexican Martial Arts are by FAR the most deceptive martial art and effective for health, healing and longevity

 

Why has no one has ever heard of this

 because the art is that deceptive.

Judo-nt know if they got a gun, Judo-nt know if they got a knife, Judo-nt know 

[rex]

Is any art effective against the grim realities of violence where weapons and multiple opponents are involved? This thought provoking blog post argues that many people train for a one-on-one fantasy encounter:

 

http://cattanga.typepad.com/tabby_cat_gamespace/2017/05/why-traditional-martial-arts-mma-and-reality-defense-are-all-obsolete.html

 

[Haven't read entire thread so sorry if this blog post has been mentioned already]

[Chang]

I will give my thoughts on the subject of Tai Chi as a martial art and can but hope that it will give a clearer understanding of this emotive subject.

Firstly Tai Chi was devised as a martial art and was claimed not only to be effective for fighting but to be the supreme ultimate method of fighting. There are all manner of arguments for and against this claim but we have to admit that those who made it believed it and were not afraid to be put to the test.

 

Secondly we must ask ourselves if the modern practitioner’s Tai chi is still effective as a martial art? The answer to this question must, in general, be no.

 

To be effective as a martial artist one must firstly train in the martial aspect of the art. Practice of the Tai Chi Form and associated qigong will not and cannot do this.

 

The Tai Chi Form is but one aspect of a complex interlocking system of practices which, taken as a whole will provide, with time and discipline, supreme and ultimate martial abilities. The Tai Chi Form itself provides two things. Firstly a means of training the body in correct stance, posture and movement.  Secondly a series of possibilities in martial arts.

 

Most practitioners of Tai Chi today have a compartmentalised vision of the art and fail to see, let alone train in the art as a whole. A simple example regarding this aspect is the training of the external as well as the internal. This is a most misunderstood aspect of the Taoist martial arts but put simply it is a case of training for fitness and physical strength – the wai gong aspect as opposed to the nei gong.

 

I was saddened to see the video of the so called Tai Chi Master so simply bested by the MMA Wallah. It was not a case of his being so badly battered which grieved me so but the fact that he failed to apply one of the first principles of Tai Chi, that of heavy elbows.

 

Keeping the elbows low relaxes the shoulders and lowers the bodies centre of balance to the area of the dantien , thereby assisting rooting and making it more difficult for your opponent to throw or knock you down.  The “Master” in question kept his elbows high, doubtless in the mistaken belief that by adopting such a stance he was protecting his face and head. Alas this proved not to be the case.

 

I could say much more on the subject of tai Chi as an effective fighting system but am not minded so to do. The fact of the matter is that Tai Chi and the Taoist Arts in general must be taken as a whole for development of the mind, body and spirit. Anyone taking up training must really be in it for the long haul and cannot expect a quick fix regarding abilities. I have trained in the Taoist arts for twenty five years rigorously and it is only in the last five years that my martial abilities have developed to the stage that I would be confident in dealing with violence offered by one or more than one attacker.

 

It is a sad fact that few organisation or teachers can provide full training in these arts and this is the case in China as well as the West. That being the case those who have found a competent teacher should feel very grateful.

To conclude I will say that the health benefits of Tai Chi are many and varied so that training in these aspects of the art are well and good. This will not however provide any martial abilities and no one should believe that it will.

 

Edited June 1, 2017 by Chang

[Marblehead]

You spoke nicely and fairly, I think, to the subject at hand.

 

And I agree, Tai Chi is primarily an internal art, not a martial art.

 

From the internal art it is next best developed into an art for self defense (reactive).

 

From there it is developed into a martial (proactive) art.  At this time many other disciplines are likely involved but it is still Tai Chi at its roots.

 

And I agree also regarding the "Master" in the first video.  He did not even assume one single defensive stance.  He was wanting to "push hands" with the MMA fighter.

 

 

[Marblehead]

I have mentioned my experience with a platoon of the Korean Tiger Division before but for this discussion I would like to mention that when they went out for their physical training (taekwondo) they first warmed up with Tai Chi.

 

 

[windwalker]

8 hours ago, Marblehead said:

I have mentioned my experience with a platoon of the Korean Tiger Division before but for this discussion I would like to mention that when they went out for their physical training (taekwondo) they first warmed up with Tai Chi.

 

 

I find this a little hard to believe.  My own contact comes from someone who trained with the White Horse div,  while in Vietnam. 

Can you site a link or is this just anecdotal. I would like to know yr and place.  Just find it very curious that any Korean unit would train with anything except Korean MA....Was in Korea in the late 70s btw....US Army  2ID.  

Edited June 1, 2017 by windwalker

[Marblehead]

16 minutes ago, windwalker said:

I find this a little hard to believe.  My own contact comes from someone who trained with the White Horse div,  while in Vietnam. 

Can you site a link or is this just anecdotal. I would like to know yr and place.  Just find it very curious that any Korean unit would train with anything except Korean MA....Was in Korea in the late 70s btw....US Army  2ID.  

The years were 1966 - 67.  161st Engineer Company, 4th Missile Command, Camp Page, Chunchon, Korea.

 

The unit was a joint US/Korean unit with Water Purification, Topographic (map making) and Atomic Demolitions Munitions Sections.  Both American and Korean technical personnel were assigned to the water and map sections.  The Tigers were security for the ADM section.  I had one Korean in my Communications section.

 

The 161st has been inactivated.

 

 

[windwalker]

47 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

The years were 1966 - 67.  161st Engineer Company, 4th Missile Command, Camp Page, Chunchon, Korea.

 

The unit was a joint US/Korean unit with Water Purification, Topographic (map making) and Atomic Demolitions Munitions Sections.  Both American and Korean technical personnel were assigned to the water and map sections.  The Tigers were security for the ADM section.  I had one Korean in my Communications section.

 

The 161st has been inactivated.

 

 

Interesting I was at Camp Edwards, 

 

78-80  in a med unit. Cant find the name of the little town we were by...but it was close to  Yongjugol(용주골

I know they have a MA called Taekkyeon  very similar to taiji both in from and function this may be what they meant or what you saw,,,still kind of find it hard to believe it was taiji. . 

 

I mention this because for the most part as you may or may not know the Chinese were not to keen on teaching the Koreans any of their arts.   Thanks for the feed back...  Martial law,,,,Those were the days...

 

Very interesting thanks for the info

 

Edited June 2, 2017 by windwalker

[Nungali]

On 5/13/2017 at 2:30 AM, thelerner said:

The question isn't is Tai Chi fake, its is it beatable?  Yeah, while at its highest level its got plenty of juice and some magic, it is beatable.

 

Nothing is unbeatable , depending on individual application and circumstances.  

 

Some arts have gone through changes due to circumstances  ( ' original capoeira ' > 'dance'  >   'performance'  >  back to fighting system  ... some have compared tai chi to similar dynamic  , postulating that its martial aspect was covered up and turned into an exercise system    ) 

 

On 5/13/2017 at 2:30 AM, thelerner said:

 

Take Brazilian Ju-Jitsu the first few Mixed Martial art world wide tournaments the Gracie family ate up the competition.  Its top guys beat multi people and were undefeated in a single tournament.  Then people studied the style, practiced against it, anticipated it, and as in all things, the winning becomes a liability.   People of different arts are beating it, but only because they specifically train against it.

 

Thus its still a very valuable art to know, a veritable must to know in MMA competition.  With its power comes vast weakness of course.  It's penchant for taking things to the ground and turning your back to the crowd and locking into another means its vulnerable on the street where attackers are not one on one. 

 

Also, the setting and environment .... no way would I take a ring challenge    ... no WAY !  I dont even know the rules , I would probably be booed due to my 'technique' , if I could apply any of them in the first place with gloves on !   I may as well try to play cricket with tennis skills. 

 

Look at '52 blocks'   style ... that was primarily a defense counter against  boxing / street fight . Why ?    According to  a main proponent ,   those people 'prefered' to do 'boxing' .

 

I wouldnt want to fight my teacher ... yet he seems totally flummoxed by a  rapid fire wing chun type attack  with a simple follow when he tries to move off line from it .... got him right on the nose !   (pulled punch   ) 

 

Also,  one of his 'fellow' instructors was visiting, he asked me to   help demonstrate  something , he moved, I moved then he . " No , no good, see how he moved in too close and now ... "  before he finished I launched and array of 52 block  /  Archie Moore *   type moves and he  was totally  flummoxed, dropped his 'style' and went into a type of slappy flapping  retreat and then goes "  ... he has to 'resort'  to elbows ."           -  nice 'save' .

 

 

 

 

On 5/13/2017 at 2:30 AM, thelerner said:

 

A good Tai chi teacher has great lessons to teach.

 

Indeed !  The smartest , quickest learner,  best 'student' to practice with in my club  is a tai chi teacher.  He is hard  to beat with sword . he is also  very evasive .... not much point delivering a great technique where he isn't    

 

On 5/13/2017 at 2:30 AM, thelerner said:

 

  I'm talking the few who are serious martial artists and the many who see it as a holistic art to develop calmness and inner energy.. chi.   I'm an Aikidoist, in my mind the art loses some martial prowess inorder to be true to its philosophy and tradition.

 

Yeah, as you know I did a lot of aikido ... some of it would be suicide as self defense , some great ( depending on ... )  but it certainly improved my skill set  ! 

 

And it wasnt only philosophy and tradition that changed Aikido , its philosophy and tradition was VERY different before WWII ... after that it got turned into a 'preserve peace ... dont harm the opponent ....  '  we love you guys '    , changed kanji in Ueshiba's writing to mean things like peace and harmony  ... they didnt use to mean that . 

 

I have even been chastised by top Aikido teacher ; 'Aikido is non violent . "       Yeah ?  Later I showed him picture in his old aikido book ( the first one published I think, I also have a copy ) of 'Master attacking someone's eyes with  metal ribbed fan and screaming kiai  ...   and there is this as well ;

 

 

 

*  

 

[Nungali]

On 5/13/2017 at 3:42 AM, Daeluin said:

Haha... indeed it is. I recall winning a philisophical argument here when someone gave up after I mentioned Zhuangzi having a conversation with a frog.

 

 

Case in point, here is an excellent example of battles of the mind.

http://www.aikidofaq.com/history/story.html

 

Ahhhh  !  Aikido  mythology !   Even aikiweb forum laughs at those type of stories ... 

I suggest the scholarly works on the subject by a specialist Peter Goldsworthy  at Akiweb ; transmission, emulation and all sorts f other Japanese cultural dynamics involved in such   ' honne  and tatemae' ;  stories 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae

[Nungali]

On 5/14/2017 at 0:45 AM, Starjumper said:

 

 

MMA is a sport, tai chi is a killing art - are we getting any of this?

 

The only reason Jiu Jitsu has a chance in MMA is because they are protected by rules, rules like the one that keep you from breaking their neck as soon as they hand it to you on a silver platter.

 

And each time they come in low for a take down you are not allowed to punch them in the back of the head !  

 

And in soccer you are not allowed to pick up the ball and run with it . 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

On 5/20/2017 at 8:41 PM, Marblehead said:

My Tai Chi is so bad I would have just pulled my .38 and shoot the MMA guy before he got close enough to hit me.

 

 

I think they pat you down  for one of those matches      

 

If not ... heck ... I just take my new spear   !  ( Now with wider reinforced head for the back slash  )   . 

[Nungali]

On 5/25/2017 at 2:46 AM, Mig said:

Watch out it doesn't work always even if you pull a colt short or long range

Quick !  Where is the Dan Inosanto  Gun Vs knife police training film !