Is Tai chi fake?

[Nungali]

On 5/27/2017 at 0:56 AM, Starjumper said:

Some of this is heading off into the boonies.  With the deadliest arts there is NO sparring, ever.  If you are trained for a fight to only last one second and most of your movements are automatic and deadly then you just do not have sparring in your system, it is too dangerous.  All there is is push hands and the practicing of techniques.  

 

hence , why 'real karate' was never taught to the occupying forces or when it was turned into a kids P.E. system ... or a sport !

The tradition I practice came from a 'temple style' that was primarily designed to 'protect the king' , so it was potentially partially suicidal , if needed to be.   Then system and king got disbanded . Style was converted to 'family style' ( family and descendants of King's bodyguard ).  So changed.

 

Old teacher ( now passed ) explained it this way ;  reason for learning ;

1. Protect parents.

2. Protect rest of family .

3. Protect self  ( so you can continue to do 1 and 2 ) .

 

Some moves in forms are supposed to be hidden when others are watching .... or  not in the form at all ( but in the bunkai and more archaic forms of the kata )    eg , in  ' 54 steps '   ( developed by that same ' royal bodyguard )  , even in archaic  form  first technique starts from ready position and seems obscure  , but in demonstration , old teacher would do the move starting off in seiza .    Which is  a common position to find one's self in in their culture . ( Aikido people may be familiar with starting a techniques or  doing one  from or in this position . 

 

 

On 5/27/2017 at 0:56 AM, Starjumper said:

 

Big tough fighters used to come from around the country to attack my applications teacher, Dave, who was advanced enough to put people down without hurting them and I would say he was probably more effective at the subtle stuff than his kung fu brother, Bruce, was.  It is obvious, when you see what happens, that as soon as the attacker moves that he becomes completely lost.  I asked Dave about why not go to an MMA match and show them the real thing.  He said that if the master won then people would say that he was bad because the mean old master hurt the widdle Lummox.  If the Lummox won then people would say he was bad because he beat up an old man. So it's a no win situation.  Dave also said that we do not want fighters to see our methods because then possibly they could develope techniques to defend themselves against them.

 

Really what it comes down to is things like rules and other stuff, other stuff like:  on the street if you throw someone on the ground hard enough, which is how we often do it, a person can smash their skull like a watermelon ( a useful technique to end a fight), but if you throw them down in the ring they'll just bounce right off the springy floor unhurt and come at you again, which makes it a useless technique.  Also we are advised to throw people in front of oncoming busses or against masonry walls.  If you smash someones face against a brick wall and then slide their face down the wall it's called Face Eraser.  Not allowed in the ring.

 

  Taught friend how to   ' Open the door '      then one night guy outside club attacks him  ... whoosh ... off he goes and collides his temple with another, this time, real door, a car door that was opening, top corner.  R r r r i i i i p  !   Friend ended up taking him to hospital to get the side of his face stitched back on .    Unintentional ... and attacker thought he had an 'accident'  or slipped over or something . 

 

Another reason I like training in the park and outdoors .     Being driven backwards, ended up  treading on some dropped large tree branches, and  didnt loose footing !    Yes !    ( Often new people will  start clearing any obstacles from the grass  ... no ! leave that stuff there   ... I had a large pet spiky thistle I was very ' fond of '  in my private training ground ... the end of many a 'foe'  in karate or aikido   dust ups   there  .... until new teacher ... he always trains in shoes !  Damn ! 

[Nungali]

On 6/1/2017 at 3:28 AM, Rara said:

 

Modern day weaponary - good answer.

 

Can we really judge an ancient martial art's effectiveness when it's up against something so evolved?

 

Yes.   Okinawan kings  body guards not allowed to carry weapons , they had  both the Japanese and Chinese coming there with weapons and still had to defend the KIng , even when Commodore Perry came and they had guns .

 

This was a big influence on 'temple ' style .  Including each person's position, role and type of action, usually envisioned to be enacted in the King's reception chamber,  and also incorporating the buildings design . From  this perspective, many 'karate forms' can be seen in a different light .     See; 

 

 

[ Although this is from the Japanese, modern karate, perspective ,  and is sort of 'engineered backwards '  ( through all the honne and tatemae    )    still they got a fair bit right about it  ] . 

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

My training and introduction to Tai Chi Chuan began learning at a kung fu temple at 17 years old and was very different to learning Tai Chi as most do in America.

 

I was not allowed to learn Tai Chi Chuan until I had Kung fu training and all the very demanding physical routines & conditioning that goes along with it. I suggest That  Tai Chi Chuan is Supreme Ultimate Boxing with profound depth that flows into all aspects of life. 

 

Trained as a martial art Tai chi contains much  much more training than a slow form. On Mount Wudang it would not be wise to say Tai Chi chuan Is not effective for fighting and I did mention before that there many pro fighters that come to learn and try to match skill from a master who began training at 5 years old and trained 8 hours a day for 20 years I guess it just depends on who you know for comparison.

 

Martial Skill is not celebrated that's true, it is a minor aspect  compared to the benefits of living in harmony and balance with all things through your art.

[Nungali]

11 hours ago, Marblehead said:

You spoke nicely and fairly, I think, to the subject at hand.

 

And I agree, Tai Chi is primarily an internal art, not a martial art.

 

From the internal art it is next best developed into an art for self defense (reactive).

 

From there it is developed into a martial (proactive) art.  At this time many other disciplines are likely involved but it is still Tai Chi at its roots.

 

And I agree also regarding the "Master" in the first video.  He did not even assume one single defensive stance.  He was wanting to "push hands" with the MMA fighter.

 

 

 

 

Indeed  ... that hand position !  I have seen it work to get past a boxer and he didnt worry about it as no power available ... until it poked him in the eye  -  that stopped him -  he was not ready for that !  and 'boxer'  was known to be  one punch knock out street fighter, bit of a bully ... later he goes;  ' Dont spar with that guy, he mad , he poked me in the eye !  ' 

 

Thing was ,  boxer asked the guy to 'spar' him twice and he said no  (  he was not sure what 'spar' meant ? ) but he just went ahead and started doing it anyway !  

[Michael Sternbach]

 

A Chen Tai Chi practitioner taking on a Kyokushin full-contact fighter. And he looks anything but silly.

[Marblehead]

8 hours ago, windwalker said:

78-80  in a med unit. Cant find the name of the little town we were by...but it was close to  Yongjugol(용주골

I know they have a MA called Taekkyeon  very similar to taiji both in from and function this may be what they meant or what you saw,,,still kind of find it hard to believe it was taiji. . 

 

I mention this because for the most part as you may or may not know the Chinese were not to keen on teaching the Koreans any of their arts.   Thanks for the feed back...  Martial law,,,,Those were the days...

 

Very interesting thanks for the info

 

I don't know if they called it Tai Chi or just warm-up.  But my recall is that it was much like Tai Chi.

 

True, the Koreans have a problem with the Chinese because through the ages China has tried many times to take control of the Korean peninsula but was never successful.  The Japanese were the first to invade and conquer but even that was only temporary.

 

 

 

 

[windwalker]

4 hours ago, Marblehead said:

I don't know if they called it Tai Chi or just warm-up.  But my recall is that it was much like Tai Chi.

 

True, the Koreans have a problem with the Chinese because through the ages China has tried many times to take control of the Korean peninsula but was never successful.  The Japanese were the first to invade and conquer but even that was only temporary.

 

 

 

 

Taekkyeon  is very similar in movement and use with a typical Korean flavor, not saying what you related was not possible just doesn't seem likely from my own experiences and  studying Chinese arts while stationed in Korea. The teacher I learned plum flower mantis from had some interesting stories concerning this.

 

 

 

Edited June 2, 2017 by windwalker

[windwalker]

9 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

A Chen Tai Chi practitioner taking on a Kyokushin full-contact fighter. And he looks anything but silly.

 

If he didn't call this taiji how many here would know this as taiji?

What is distinctly different from what the other person is doing and using?

 

Whether I agree that this is "taiji" or not which I would say "not"  

I would have to see the training, and practice evaluating whether was was trained was actually being used.  In China, there are a lot of "taiji" who supplement their training with other skill sets because they have not gained the use of and skill sets of taiji. 

 

This is not to say they don't have skill or are not skillful only questioning the type of skill.

 

compare the  Taekkyeon clip posted,,,Training, conditioning and usage all reflected in real time use...what they do is more in line with taiji than what is shown in many clips purporting to show taiji in use.   

 

Edited June 2, 2017 by windwalker

[Starjumper]

 

[Marblehead]

3 hours ago, windwalker said:

Taekkyeon  is very similar in movement and use with a typical Korean flavor, not saying what you related was not possible just doesn't seem likely from my own experiences and  studying Chinese arts while stationed in Korea. The teacher I learned plum flower mantis from had some interesting stories concerning this.

 

Well, remember, the Koreans are Chinese people who ran away from home a long time ago and created their own style of Chinese culture mixed with a little Caucasian blood from Siberia.

 

 

[windwalker]

16 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Well, remember, the Koreans are Chinese people who ran away from home a long time ago and created their own style of Chinese culture mixed with a little Caucasian blood from Siberia.

 

 

And this means what, I see little relevance to this post as to what is trained,  why its trained  and who trained it.

 

 

Edited June 2, 2017 by windwalker

[Marblehead]

21 minutes ago, windwalker said:

And this means what, I see little relevance to this post as to what is trained,  why its trained  and who trained it.

 

 

Culture, culture, culture.

 

They claim to be different but they are the same at their roots.

 

Based on my experiences a ten to fifteen minute session of Tai Chi is an excellent warm-up for any kind of more active exercising.

 

[windwalker]

It's neither here nor there I think you might want to check on the ethnicity of Koreans from what I've read seems to be more related with Mongolia than any other place.

[Marblehead]

1 hour ago, windwalker said:

It's neither here nor there I think you might want to check on the ethnicity of Koreans from what I've read seems to be more related with Mongolia than any other place.

The Mongolians are a mix of the Siberian Caucasians and the Chinese.

 

And then they mixed with the Chinese in Korea.  This is why, on average, the Korean is a little taller and less Chinese looking that are the pure Chinese.

 

It may not be here or there but if you keep talking about it I am going to continue to respond.

 

 

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, Marblehead said:

The Mongolians are a mix of the Siberian Caucasians and the Chinese.

 

And then they mixed with the Chinese in Korea.  This is why, on average, the Korean is a little taller and less Chinese looking that are the pure Chinese.

 

It may not be here or there but if you keep talking about it I am going to continue to respond.

 

 

 

To clarify a bit: the Khitan people, who used a para-Mongolic language,  were nomads from Northeast Asia, who from the 4th century inhabited an area corresponding to parts of modern Mongolia, Northeast China and the Russian Far East. The other pronunciation of the word "Khitan"-- Khitai -- is the Russian for "China" to this day (Kitay).  "Mongolia" came to be, courtesy of Genghis Khan, as an empire, and empires are always ethnically complex, uniting peoples (voluntarily or against their will) of very different origins.  The "Siberian Caucasians" were the indigenous Finno-Ugric groups among the peoples of Siberia -- until the Russian conquest in the 16th and 17th centuries, and thence, mostly Russians (only 10% of Siberia's current population is indigenous). 

 

Not sure any of it has anything to do with taiji though... 

Edited June 2, 2017 by Taomeow

[windwalker]

2 hours ago, Marblehead said:

The Mongolians are a mix of the Siberian Caucasians and the Chinese.

 

And then they mixed with the Chinese in Korea.  This is why, on average, the Korean is a little taller and less Chinese looking that are the pure Chinese.

 

It may not be here or there but if you keep talking about it I am going to continue to respond.

 

 

 

Are you here to win a point or share information. what you posted has no baring on taiji at all. I had asked you about taiji being practiced at that time in Korea which you had stated and now your not sure. If you respond or not is also up to, which again has no bearing on the thread.  Whether you respond or not, is up to you. If you want to take it off line or open another thread about  this, be my guest....Its not a question for me.....it might be for others. 

Edited June 2, 2017 by windwalker

[windwalker]

8 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

To clarify a bit: the Khitan people, who used a para-Mongolic language,  were nomads from Northeast Asia, who from the 4th century inhabited an area corresponding to parts of modern Mongolia, Northeast China and the Russian Far East. The other pronunciation of the word "Khitan"-- Khitai -- is the Russian for "China" to this day (Kitay).  "Mongolia" came to be, courtesy of Genghis Khan, as an empire, and empires are always ethnically complex, uniting peoples (voluntarily or against their will) of very different origins.  The "Siberian Caucasians" were the indigenous Finno-Ugric groups among the peoples of Siberia -- until the Russian conquest in the 16th and 17th centuries, and thence, mostly Russians (only 10% of Siberia's current population is indigenous). 

 

Not sure any of it has anything to do with taiji though... 

It doesn't, it might if what is called taiji was being practiced in Korea at that time....

which is what my question was about.

 

As for taiji being used to warm up for something else,  I also would question this the rational behind it. 

There are many CMA teachers who teach taiji but do it as an adjunct to their main practices... As such a lot of what they teach as taiji is not really in line with a lot of the main tenets of taiji.  

 

Others may find different....

 

[Marblehead]

39 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

Not sure any of it has anything to do with taiji though... 

No, it doesn't.  But we were already off topic so it really doesn't matter.

 

 

[Marblehead]

34 minutes ago, windwalker said:

 

Are you here to win a point or share information. what you posted has no baring on taiji at all. I had asked you about taiji being practiced at that time in Korea which you had stated and now your not sure. If you respond or not is also up to, which again has no bearing on the thread.  If you want to take it off line or open another thread about  this, be my guest....

You challenged me for stating what I understood to be a truth.  I responded but you did not like my response.  That's your problem.

 

I am talking about Tai Chi and Taekwondo right here in this thread.  I have first hand experience with both.  You seem to be lacking.

 

So I am standing with my assertion that the members of the Tiger Division who were attached to the 161st Engineer Company did practice Tai Chi to warm up for their Taekwondo.

 

I doubt you can prove me wrong no matter how much you question what I have said.

 

I am here to share with other members.  I have done that very well in the past.  Few have dared to challenge the truthfulness of what I speak to.  

 

 

[Marblehead]

33 minutes ago, windwalker said:

It doesn't, it might if what is called taiji was being practiced in Korea at that time....

which is what my question was about.

 

As for taiji being used to warm up for something else,  I also would question this the rational behind it. 

There are many CMA teachers who teach taiji but do it as an adjunct to their main practices... As such a lot of what they teach as taiji is not really in line with a lot of the main tenets of taiji.  

 

Others may find different....

 

So you won't let it go, will you.  You question something you have knowledge of.  You were not there.  You know no one who was there when I was there.  How dare you?

 

So you don't use Tai Chi to warm up for anything.  That's fine.  But don't be putting your standards on anyone else.

 

And yes, I ALWAYS warm up with standard Tai Chi before I start my two sword Tai Chi.  

 

Yu know many CMA teachers?  WoW!  And you know their teaching methods?  Double WOW!!

 

 

[windwalker]

13 hours ago, Marblehead said:

I don't know if they called it Tai Chi or just warm-up.  But my recall is that it was much like Tai Chi.

 

True, the Koreans have a problem with the Chinese because through the ages China has tried many times to take control of the Korean peninsula but was never successful.  The Japanese were the first to invade and conquer but even that was only temporary.

 

 

 

 

 

Not here to argue nor challenge just found it hard to believe this would be the case during that time.. I suggested that what you saw might have been something else that looks very much like taiji called Taekkyeon, which to me would make more sense..

If you feel it was "taiji" then hey maybe it was, only you know....which it would seem that now your not really sure of...

 

If you want to go on about it...really not into it, nor do I think it does anything for the thread. 

 

No never claim to know much about taiji, I can claim that in 40yrs of practice I might have seen and know a little bit...everyones practice is a little different....

be well its Friday, the weather is nice.

 

 

Edited June 2, 2017 by windwalker

[Marblehead]

1 minute ago, windwalker said:

 

Not here to argue nor challenge just found it hard to believe this would be the case during that time.. I suggested that what you saw might have been something else that looks very much like taiji called Taekkyeon, which to me would make more sense..

If you feel it was "taiji" then hey maybe it was, only you know....which it would seem that now your not really sure of...

 

If you want to go on about it...really not into it, nor do I think it does anything for the thread. 

 

 

Yes, it was your desire to challenge me even though your level of knowledge of what I was speaking to was zero.

 

So you found it hard to believe and I tried to make it more acceptable for you by stating what you bolded of one of my previous posts.

 

No, you didn't suggest it might be something else.  You only challenged me.

 

And it really doesn't matter if it was called Tai Chi or pussy-footin'.

 

You are correct. Our discussion is of no value to anyone else.  But I stated my truth and you took the liberty to challenge.

 

And like I said, Anything you say further about this will be responded to by me.

 

[windwalker]

1 minute ago, Marblehead said:

Yes, it was your desire to challenge me even though your level of knowledge of what I was speaking to was zero.

 

So you found it hard to believe and I tried to make it more acceptable for you by stating what you bolded of one of my previous posts.

 

No, you didn't suggest it might be something else.  You only challenged me.

 

And it really doesn't matter if it was called Tai Chi or pussy-footin'.

 

You are correct. Our discussion is of no value to anyone else.  But I stated my truth and you took the liberty to challenge.

 

And like I said, Anything you say further about this will be responded to by me.

 

I see, so now its about just being right....

 

ok,,,your right...its still Friday and the weather is still nice but it might

change never know.

[Starjumper]

9 hours ago, windwalker said:

Taekkyeon  is very similar in movement and use with a typical Korean flavor, not saying what you related was not possible. The teacher I learned plum flower mantis from had some interesting stories concerning this.

 

 

 

 

[Marblehead]

8 minutes ago, windwalker said:

I see, so now its about just being right....

 

ok,,,your right...its still Friday and the weather is still nice but it might

change never know.

You just won't let it go, will you?

 

Yes, I was right because it was my truth.  You had doubts.  That's fine.

 

I just had a terrible rain storm with high winds.

 

But yes, things did change.  It has now stopped raining and the winds are down to nothing.