Is Tai chi fake?

[Taomeow]

You don't see the problem?  The Chinese have applied to include taiji in the Olympic sports.  So far, no luck, but this is part of an overall trend.  Taiji is being peddled as a sport -- in the east and in the west alike.  We've just seen one dismal practical outcome of this trend.  And you are talking about what "should" or "shouldn't" be happening.  Whereas I was talking about "why" it shouldn't be happening...  one "why" out of a hundred I could expound on. 

[windwalker]

My point was that for me it has little impact on what I do or think...I don't allow it rent space

in my mind...maybe others have more space to rent...

[awaken]

http://mp.weixin.qq.com/s?plg_nld=1&plg_uin=1&mid=2247485321&idx=2&plg_nld=1&scene=23&__biz=MzI3MzYwNTA2Ng%3D%3D&plg_dev=1&chksm=eb218f2cdc56063af17f7cf136c4e050b16cc15ec3a129efee17cda4e0ba175872dbdcce91c9&srcid=051224KgYLWI8eco4SRZ5hec&mpshare=1&plg_usr=1&sn=483bd5b175e41f98d002eee702f388f8&plg_vkey=1#rd

 

A Chinese wrote a post about the event.

[[email protected]]

The man who was the winner looked like a classic MMA fighter. What result would you expect in a battle between a classic fighter and "so-called tai-chi master" whose arms lack of qi, who doesn't control the distance and isn't able to counteract the attack?

Imagine Chen Yui as an opponent and I think the result could be quite contrary.

Rgrds, Ilya

[Starjumper]

Take Brazilian Ju-Jitsu the first few Mixed Martial art world wide tournaments the Gracie family ate up the competition.  Its top guys beat multi people and were undefeated in a single tournament.  Then people studied the style, practiced against it, anticipated it, and as in all things, the winning becomes a liability.   People of different arts are beating it, but only because they specifically train against it.

 

 

MMA is a sport, tai chi is a killing art - are we getting any of this?

 

The only reason Jiu Jitsu has a chance in MMA is because they are protected by rules, rules like the one that keep you from breaking their neck as soon as they hand it to you on a silver platter.

[Mig]

The man who was the winner looked like a classic MMA fighter. What result would you expect in a battle between a classic fighter and "so-called tai-chi master" whose arms lack of qi, who doesn't control the distance and isn't able to counteract the attack?

Imagine Chen Yui as an opponent and I think the result could be quite contrary.

Rgrds, Ilya

Can we see an example, of a Master with qi, control distance and being able to counter attack? Those days are gone of imagination, if you practice ground, fist, kick, grappling, clinching most likely you will survive.

[Starjumper]

Can we see an example, of a Master with qi, control distance and being able to counter attack?   Those days are gone of imagination, if you practice ground, fist, kick, grappling, clinching most likely you will survive.

 

 

Those days are not gone, they are hidden.  Taoism and it's fighting arts are about yielding, about never getting hit, where they can't even touch you, and if you touch them they won't feel anything until the finishing move.

 

I had a kung fu teacher who used tai chi methods (methods most tai chi teachers are unaware of) and big bad mean angry tough martial artists would come from around the country to attack him.  Every time they would be on the floor in one second, my teacher was good enough to put them down without damaging them but damaging is so much easier.  The important thing is that they had no idea how they got there, because as soon as they moved it was like their world got pulled out from under them and they had no idea which way was up.

 

Many of them couldn't accept it or believe it, writing it off as some kind of a trick.  Well it was a trick, it's all a bunch of tricks designed to foil the natural instincts of fighters ... combined with highly efficient and effortless killing moves.

[Mig]

Those days are not gone, they are hidden.  Taoism and it's fighting arts are about yielding, about never getting hit, where they can't even touch you, and if you touch them they won't feel anything until the finishing move.

 

I had a kung fu teacher who used tai chi methods (methods most tai chi teachers are unaware of) and big bad mean angry tough martial artists would come from around the country to attack him.  Every time they would be on the floor in one second, my teacher was good enough to put them down without damaging them but damaging is so much easier.  The important thing is that they had no idea how they got there, because as soon as they moved it was like their world got pulled out from under them and they had no idea which way was up.

 

Many of them couldn't accept it or believe it, writing it off as some kind of a trick.  Well it was a trick, it's all a bunch of tricks designed to foil the natural instincts of fighters ... combined with highly efficient and effortless killing moves.

My friend, we have heard that time after time the same stories, the problem those prowess are never seen. Fantasy and reality are two different things. Fighting is nothing new and today we know better, thank God.

[Daeluin]

My friend, we have heard that time after time the same stories, the problem those prowess are never seen. Fantasy and reality are two different things. Fighting is nothing new and today we know better, thank God.

 

It relates to "power." The principle of power is also related to "virtue." De. To accomplish this is not easy - it requires diligent cultivation, and cultivation that is properly balanced and refined in order to first accumulate what may not feel powerful at all, but becomes more powerful over time.

 

At this point, we have differences in application of power. Long power... perhaps (I don't know) it is similar to the power of a river, with a river's wide turns and undeniable momentum. Use of this type of power is a little more difficult than other types because (it seems to me) one needs a little more time to manifest the flowing power and make proper connection to another in application. Conversely, so called short power seems to me like a more simple, less-tended burst of power - it is allowed to simply leave one's self and enter the other, at which point this power is left for the other to deal with. Yet for the other, who likely has little ability to deal with their own stiffnesses and blockages, is faced with a TNT like explosion of energy that is seeking balance within their body (much like a burst of electricity), and it will equalize in the quickest way available. Just like lightning does. Yet the energy is not electricity, it is qi. The body is a very qi dependent system, so perhaps an apt comparison is that of a computer being struck by a small burst of lightning. Even though small, it is completely unprepared to be dealt with. As soon as the energy reaches a component that is not prepared for the burst, that component is "fried." In computers these are chips and capacitors. In the body these are organs and tissues.

 

From what I've read, there are many ways to apply the power more deliberately so that it accomplishes a more directed effect, beyond just short, long. There are many "named" types of power application.

 

But please remember that virtue is the key to developing this power to begin with. Why would one with virtue knowingly intend to be so destructive, both to their own virtuous qi and to their own soul integrity, let alone the coarse destruction of another?

 

Superior de has no doing: there is nothing whereby it does.

Inferior de does: there is something whereby it does.

[SeekerOfHealing]

There are real tai chi styles for internal power but those are rare and not know to public. I know and have instructions for that one style actually.

[dwai]

Edited May 13, 2017 by dwai

[Starjumper]

My friend, we have heard that time after time the same stories, the problem those prowess are never seen.

 

Good, we agree, because I wrote: 

Those days are not gone, they are hidden.

 

Except it's not 'never'.    As we can see in the following graph, "A" represents number of tai chi practitioners and "B" represents how much of the deeper aspects of the fighting that they have seen.

 

Edited May 13, 2017 by Starjumper

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Can we see an example, of a Master with qi, control distance and being able to counter attack? Those days are gone of imagination, if you practice ground, fist, kick, grappling, clinching most likely you will survive.

Just look at Chen Yui, as I wrote. I'm not sure he can beat anyone, but he seems to be a real tai chi master.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QDPPkG4F2aQ

Look at positions and the throws of power.

The person in the awaikens post looked like a passive gui just returned from meditaion, but real master has skills, movements, positions and spirit.

Rgrds, Ilya

Edited May 14, 2017 by [email protected]

[C T]

Tai Chi absolutely fake and useless... not

 

 

 

21'44 mark introduces Chen Xiaowang, who some say is the most powerful Tai Chi exponent and master of this era

Edited May 14, 2017 by C T

[Fa Xin]

I was an experienced martial artist and mma fighter when I started with taijiquan. I started tjq for health, meditation and relaxing benefits.

But I did learn things that improved my fighting, for sure.

 

Problem is most teachers here in America (the ones I've met at least) don't train with fighting in mind. Either they don't know or don't care. Health sells much better.

 

then there's many "taijiquan fighters" who fight like kick boxers when things get rough. If you can't fight like you train then something is wrong

 

Tjq is a very competent martial art, but I feel to use it successfully in a real life or death confrontation you have to train that way and it's a lot longer of a road then going to mma gym.

 

Learning taichi to fight is like becoming a doctor in order to take blood. You can do it but there's so much more your learning

Edited May 14, 2017 by Fa Xin

[Fa Xin]

With that being said there seems to be a resurgence in taijiquan for Practical purposes.

 

One that comes to mind is Novell Bell and his group in NYC is extremely refreshing to see. Not only are they youtubing their training but also holding full contact matches with many guys that train ima.

[Taomeow]

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Edited May 14, 2017 by Taomeow

[[email protected]]

Let me a bit develop a thought that was posted earlier that Tai chi is not only a martial art. I believe that martial part is only a sort of benefit in this system, but its main result is development if yin-yang balance. As a result of this balance all other areas of our life will also become balanced - health, social life/communications, emotional stability etc. This is a multy-effect system, and if you look at it as at a killing art this means that you pay attention only to its one aspect.

Rgrds, Ilya

Edited May 16, 2017 by [email protected]

[windwalker]

Would anyone say after watching this that boxing was fake it didn't work, or that wrestling was fake it doesn't work.

Two different approaches operating within their own constraints matched against "equals"  in level of skill. To me this is the main factor in many things. In many of the matches presented the skill levels are hardly equal, the bad  part IMO is that sometimes the one in the match does not seem to understand this until its to late....

I call this "honesty"  with in ones self and understanding ones self...  

[dwai]

On 5/14/2017 at 8:35 AM, Fa Xin said:

I was an experienced martial artist and mma fighter when I started with taijiquan. I started tjq for health, meditation and relaxing benefits.

But I did learn things that improved my fighting, for sure.

 

Problem is most teachers here in America (the ones I've met at least) don't train with fighting in mind. Either they don't know or don't care. Health sells much better.

 

then there's many "taijiquan fighters" who fight like kick boxers when things get rough. If you can't fight like you train then something is wrong

 

Tjq is a very competent martial art, but I feel to use it successfully in a real life or death confrontation you have to train that way and it's a lot longer of a road then going to mma gym.

 

Learning taichi to fight is like becoming a doctor in order to take blood. You can do it but there's so much more your learning

My Sifu tells us to train this way - starting with push hands -- after we have built sufficient sensitivity with listening and understanding power, and with the ability to transfer power, we should increase the speed and pressure within push hands, while remaining empty and sung. After this is done, the next course is to do full contact sparring with striking.

Can a taiji player stay suspended, rooted, empty and sung while facing a flurry of jabs, crosses and hooks coming at them from random directions at full speed and mixed in with full power strikes? 

How long would it take for said taiji player to "close the gap" and get into push hands range? 

Can the taiji player neutralize the strikes and stick, adhere, follow? 

Does the taiji player know how to make use of concepts like hwa jin and bii jin?

Does the taiji player know how to "swallow and spit incoming" attacks (tu and na)?

Does the taiji player know how to "separate and diffuse" incoming forces?

Can the taiji player lead their attacker into emptiness?

Going a bit higher level now...

Can the taiji player transform incoming forces without sending to the ground? 

Can the taiji player return incoming force, immediately, from the surface (Golden Bell)?

There are two different tracks of Taiji training. One is for cultivation and spiritual practice. The other is for martial efficacy. In some respects the two are orthogonal, until one gets to a advanced level of practice when there is no difference between the two, but then one goes into the "magical" realm (which is very real BTW). 

 

 

[[email protected]]

There is one more thing we usually don't keep in mind. Ali ended his days as an invalid, as many other boxers, while I haven't seen such health deviations among tai chi masters. There may be some disputes about knees, but these cases are not obvious and discussable.

It shows us another sides of "western" and "eastern" martial systems.

Eastern ones assume martial aspect as a part of a warrior's life, equal to all other - ethical, social, philosophic, energy etc.

Don't mix apples with plums and don't make them fight with each other :).

Rgrds, Ilya

[Sublimation]

I found some interesting points by a trainer (I think from Germany):

He talks about the problem comparing martial arts with MMA and efficiency.
 

 

[Green Tiger]

My tai chi instructor gave a very thoughtful talk last week on this subject and said that there are 5 levels to tai chi as a martial art.  Only at the 5th level do you see anything that can compare to mixed martial arts abilities, and it involves training that looks very similar to mixed martial arts training.  

 

I ran into this issue with Aikido as well.  Aikido is a very sophisticated martial art that can be very effective, but it takes SOOOO much time and training to become proficient with it.  If you want to become an effective martial artist quickly, tai chi and aikido are not for you.  If you want to learn to use tai chi or aikido as martial arts, you'd best be prepared to devote a lot of time and focus to them.

[[email protected]]

1 hour ago, Green Tiger said:

If you want to become an effective martial artist quickly, tai chi and aikido are not for you.  If you want to learn to use tai chi or aikido as martial arts, you'd best be prepared to devote a lot of time and focus to them.

 

I works if you limit your goals to martial aspect only. In case you want to be involved in the whole system and obtain understanding of qi flows, relaxation and harmony then this limitation with martiality will limit your complex development.

Rgrds, Ilya

[Starjumper]

10 hours ago, Green Tiger said:

If you want to become an effective martial artist quickly, tai chi and aikido are not for you.  If you want to learn to use tai chi or aikido as martial arts, you'd best be prepared to devote a lot of time and focus to them.

 

I also used to think this way, but I discovered I was wrong.  I discovered this in my kung fu class, a kung fu based on tai chi, wing chun, etc, the internal martial arts.

 

It turns out that if you just focus on the applications and forget all the forms and push hands that you can learn some really effective stuff quite quickly.  Of course learning the forms does help, as does push hands, if you want to go far, but just knowing some methods can be absolutely effective.

 

To illustrate this I will take the time to share a story that my applications teacher told me.  A young feller was brought to class by his mom, who really wanted him to learn self defense.  The kid wasn't so interested and really wanted to learn piano instead, so he dropped out after three months. My teacher referred to him as Little Sissy Boy.

 

Well this guy was working at a fast food burger place one evening and this big African American came to the window and demanded a free burger.  The kid said he couldn't do that so the black guy said he was going to return at closing time.

 

So at closing time there were 5 - Five - (5) big black bruisers waiting for him when he came out of work and they attacked him.  The result of this was that four of them went down and didn't get up for awhile, and three of them had to go to the hospital.  The big tough attackers told the police that little sissy boy had attacked them, but there had been a couple of police sitting in an unmarked car there and they saw the whole thing.  My teacher said that he had learned well and he just accidentally did everything right.

 

So perhaps there are other reasons that traditional tai chi takes decades to get to the defense, and a lot of those aren't ever going to get to the level of sophistication of what my teacher was teaching us.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Starjumper