dwai

The four fundamentals of reality

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This popped up in my FB page today --

 

* * * FOUR FUNDAMENTALS * * *

 

A foreign visitor who could spend only three days in Bombay attended both the morning and evening sessions every day.

 

At the final session, he said that during the three days he had absorbed so much that he was not able to sort out the priorities and did not know what to do first and what could be postponed.

 

He earnestly requested Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj to review the fundamentals so that he could retain them in his mind in an orderly manner.

 

Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj laughed and asked him if there was any confusion in his mind about his being a male human being, about being the son of his parents, or about his profession!

 

If not, then why should there be any confusion about his true nature !

 

Anyway, said Maharaj, let us take up what you have asked for.

What you really want is to reach an acceptable understanding of your self (which you have been conditioned to regard as a body-mind entity with complete control over its actions) and your relationship with the world in which you live - you on the one hand and the world on the other.

 

Now, what you think you are,

is nothing but the 'material' essence of your father's body

which was conceived in your mother's womb,

and which later grew spontaneously into the shape of a baby

with bones, flesh, blood etc.

 

Indeed, you were not even consulted about your 'birth'.

 

A human form was created which grew

from a baby to an infant and at a certain time,

perhaps in the second year of your life,

you were told that 'you' were born,

that 'you' have both a name and a form.

 

Thereafter, you had the knowledge of your 'beingness'

and 'you' began to consider yourself as a separate individual,

with an independent entity, apart from the rest of the world.

 

Now consider:

 

(i) Did your parents specially and deliberately create 'you?

 

(ii) Did your parents know the moment when conception took place?

 

(iii) Did 'you' specifically and deliberately select a particular couple as your parents? and

 

(iv) Did you choose to get born'?

 

From the answers to these questions it would be clear

that a form in the shape of a human being got created almost accidentally (without any concurrence or selection on any one's part), which you subsequently accepted as your self.

 

Therefore, 'you' as such do not exist either as a 'fact', or as an entity.

 

This is the first fundamental.

A form got created through a natural process.

 

Then, the question is what are 'we'—all of us?

 

Each one of us, as a phenomenon,

is merely an appearance in the consciousness

of those who perceive us, and, therefore,

what we appear to be is a phenomenon - temporal, finite and perceptible to the senses;

whereas what we are, what we have always been and

what we shall always be,

without name and form,

is the noumenon - timeless, spaceless, imperceptible being.

 

However convincingly you may think you have 'understood'

this basic fact,

you will find it almost impossible to dis-associate yourself

from the identification with your name and form as an entity.

 

This can happen only when that

which you have been thinking of as a separate entity

has been totally annihilated.

 

This is the second fundamental, the power of Maya.

 

What is merely a phenomenon, without any independent existence of its own, is considered to be 'real',

and efforts are made by this phantom to 'become' something -

a shadow chasing its substance.

 

Whereas actually you have all along been the substance and never the shadow in bondage wanting liberation.

How very amusing, but then that is Maya!

 

Now the third fundamental:

Would you have been able to conceive any aspect of the manifested world if there were no 'space-time'?

 

If phenomena were not extended into space

and given a three-dimensional 'volume',

and if they were not measured in duration,

you could not have conceived,

let alone perceived, anything of the apparent universe.

 

Please note that all phenomena are mere appearances in space-time, conceived and perceived in consciousness.

And even the very idea of the wholeness of the Absolute can only be a concept in consciousness!

When consciousness merges in the Absolute,

who or what can there be to want to know anything,

or to experience anything?

 

And now the final fundamental:

 

If what I have said so far is clearly understood,

should it not be possible for you to apperceive your true state, the state before 'you' were 'born'?

 

Could you go back to that primal state,

before consciousness spontaneously arose

and brought on the sense of presence?

 

This latter state of the 'sense of presence' is true so long as the body exists.

 

When the life span of the body is over, this conscious presence merges into the original state where there is no consciousness of being present.

 

No one is born, no one dies.

 

There is merely the beginning, the duration and the end of an event, objectified as a life-time in space-time.

 

As phenomenon there is no entity that is bound and as noumenon, there can be no entity that needs to be liberated.

 

This is what is to be apperceived: The dream-world of phenomena is something to be merely witnessed.

 

The visitor bowed before Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj and said that he had received the highest knowledge in the fewest words.

 

"Having learnt about my true identity, I have nothing else to learn now." he added.

 

~ Pointers from Nisargadatta Maharaj book

 

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sounds like a nihilistic variation couched in an absolute excuse for saying so  

Edited by 3bob
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Only two fundamentals as far as I can see: 

 

1.  We were born.

2.  We will die.

 

These two, all that happened before (1.), all that will happen between the two, and all that will happen after (2) are the processes of nature.  Nothing special going on here.

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Intellectually I can't swallow even the first fundamental understanding "

(iv) Did you choose to get born'? 
..that a form in the shape of a human being got created almost accidentally (without any concurrence or selection on any one's part), which you subsequently accepted as your self.  Therefore, 'you' as such do not exist either as a 'fact', or as an entity."

 

Not saying its wrong, rather to truly understand it won't be made by my intellect.  The Catch 22 is only by experiencing it will I know it.  Maybe one day in deep meditation I'll know it, but not by reading or pondering.

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The discussion of the four principles is riddled with presuppositions that can be questioned.  In Platonism for example the pre-existent soul chooses the life that it will live, which naturally includes the parents to which it will be born, just as it can be assumed, based on this model, that the parents choose the child which they would have.  This is all described in the Tenth Book of Plato's Republic in what is usually called:

 

The Myth of Er

 

Now Plato's discussion of the myth of Er does not exist in a vacuum, but in a complete cosmological system based on a metaphysics of the One which Plato outlined in his dialog Parmenides.  This whole system provides an alternative framework for thinking about these matters, as well as a system of spiritual practice based upon it, which was explicated by later authors within the system which was outlined in Plato's dialogs.

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besides karma is exacting and relentless to the 9th degree, with only wisdom and compassion mitigating it to whatever degree may be possible?  thus I think we can toss out any ideas about totally random events or effects.

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my fundamental reality seems to be awareness which seems to be unmanifest, empty, limitless and undying. 

there is an innate knowingness that I am.

 

my beingness seems to be centered on the heat generated by my breathing form.

 

but really I am simply aware that I am.  This is what I am.

 

one of the only things I am certain of, is that I am.

 

and the I that knows that I am, is the same I that I am, there are not two, one that is and one that knows...

 

so I am one limitless awareness with a manifest (limited) breathing form generating mild heat.

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My current understanding is that duality permeates manifest reality in a seemingly infinite regression which is truly underpinned by a non-dual unmanifest reality. The former is phenomenal while the latter is noumenal and both are real in their own contexts. All is simultaneously on both levels without conflict except within the mind which strives to control and contain.

 

On one level, we have no control over our "selves" and we don't influence our own creation. On another level, our "higher-level selves" are very involved in our next manifestation and we set goals and purposes for ourselves, which we largely forget through the manifestation process. With each turning of the wheel, we wend our way through the phenomena until, eventually, the noumena remain.

 

I'm reminded of a crude little childhood ditty:

"No sweat, no strain,

Just sit and let it..."

 

Well, on second thought.

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and the I that knows that I am, is the same I that I am, there are not two, one that is and one that knows...

 

 

Yes, one of you is enough, thank you.

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Now Plato's discussion of the myth of Er does not exist in a vacuum, but in a complete cosmological system based on a metaphysics of the One which Plato outlined in his dialog Parmenides.  This whole system provides an alternative framework for thinking about these matters, as well as a system of spiritual practice based upon it, which was explicated by later authors within the system which was outlined in Plato's dialogs.

 

After a lot of thought I have decided that the basic criticism which I introduced in the above quoted post was too important to leave as it was, because the usual prejudice to dismiss Plato as a mere "philosopher" in the Nineteenth and Twentieth Century sense of the word, and to dismiss reason in the sense in which Plato and his school would have used it, as mere counter productive "intellectualism", is very strong among mystically minded types.  I know this very well, because I used to do it myself.  To counter this I have decided to post links to two essays by Edward Butler which can be downloaded if you want, which show how the outline of a Metaphysics of the One, which I mention above, was worked out by later Platonists, in this case Plotinus and Proclus.

 

The first one focuses mostly on the work of Proclus, making a comparison between Proclus' "henadology", which is the study of the One and its metaphysical and cosmogenic power, and its relation to traditional Indian thought:

 

Bhakti and Henadology

 

The second one focuses on Plotinus' use of Henadic principles to explicate the nature of the Pagan Gods, of whatever pantheon, as unique Ones:

 

Plotinian Henadology

 

Both of these discussions have aspects which help to anchor the idea of the actual existence of unique "individuality" and thus "personhood" at the highest levels, and thereby create a rationale for the existence of a preexistent Soul that can make free choices about its future "incarnation".  Regrettably for the "uninitiated" they are in technical scholarly jargon, but there are some people here who can readily read and understand them as written, and for those who can't, even going through the essays they are likely to find some passages which are interesting and insightful which will make the effort worthwhile.  If there is enough interest, I may post more on this, and other aspects of these essays and "henadology", here or elsewhere.

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dwai, thanks for posting that!

 

Although the nomenclature is different, the underlying concepts are clearly pointing to the moon that is so familiar to me!

 

One in particular brought a big smile: "And even the very idea of the wholeness of the Absolute can only be a concept in consciousness!" which I express with the words: 'Even Tao is just an idea."

 

Nice to float along the same stream on another's raft for a change. (-:

 

Thanks again, warmest regards

Edited by rene
fix coding
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Btw., the transcendent is not in denial of dharma but the source of it,

and imo all of this harping about the transcendent in denial or dismissal of form is bogus being they are connected.  

 

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18 hours ago, rene said:

dwai, thanks for posting that!

 

Although the nomenclature is different, the underlying concepts are clearly pointing to the moon that is so familiar to me!

 

One in particular brought a big smile: "And even the very idea of the wholeness of the Absolute can only be a concept in consciousness!" which I express with the words: 'Even Tao is just an idea."

 

Nice to float along the same stream on another's raft for a change. (-:

 

Thanks again, warmest regards

Words vary but the truth is the same :)

When we let go and go real deep into our awareness, there is no memory of awareness, yet we know awareness is. All that we label and describe is the boundary between that which is  knowable (by the senses and the mind) and the unknowable (by the senses and the mind). 

The nuance is so subtle and yet so simple that we often overlook it. That which we are looking for, can never be found using our senses and the mind. The senses and the mind are tools that go outward and grasp phenomena that rise and fall, as objects to the subject, which one is. 

Best Regards,

 

Dwai

 

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On 5/13/2017 at 11:50 AM, silent thunder said:

my beingness seems to be centered on the heat generated by my breathing form.

 

but really I am simply aware that I am.  This is what I am.

 

one of the only things I am certain of, is that I am.

 

and the I that knows that I am, is the same I that I am, there are not two, one that is and one that knows...

 

so I am one limitless awareness with a manifest (limited) breathing form generating mild heat.

The heart part is puzzling.  If it is limitless awareness, how can it be centered on particular location, like heart?  If that is how it is perceived in current form, then is it limitless?

I was reading Ramana Maharishi's talks a while back.  He mentions that "I am" or awareness rests on the right side of the heart.  When questioned about the heart of left, he mentions that is the organ heart, and distinguishes it from the heart on right.

Quote

angustha-maatra-purusha.   (Katha Upanishad 2.3.17, Svetasvatara Upanishad 3.13)

Upanishads also state  purusha (being) resides in heart, in the size of a thumb.  

Edited to add:  Unless, there is a separation such as jivatma, how can the limitless be described with size and location?

Edited by kāvēri
Add a question in end.
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Kaveri, the "small lotus of the heart" and or "city of Brahman" - as also mentioned in the Chandogya Upanishad - is not limited in anyway to a size, place or time...but a connection of that in a being or form which does have a particular place and time also seems to bring about related limitations to "that" but such is not really so, thus only apparent.  (if you get the drift?)

Edited by 3bob
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45 minutes ago, kāvēri said:

The heart part is puzzling.  If it is limitless awareness, how can it be centered on particular location, like heart?  If that is how it is perceived in current form, then is it limitless?

I was reading Ramana Maharishi's talks a while back.  He mentions that "I am" or awareness rests on the right side of the heart.  When questioned about the heart of left, he mentions that is the organ heart, and distinguishes it from the heart on right.

Upanishads also state  purusha (being) resides in heart, in the size of a thumb.  

Edited to add:  Unless, there is a separation such as jivatma, how can the limitless be described with size and location?

That is my experience as well. The mind seems to rise from the spiritual heart, which feels like it's located in the middle of the chest area. I think Brian explained it very nicely in another thread a while back (how the guru chakra and the spiritual heart forms a massive energetic/spiritual heart, like a flower in full bloom).

 

 

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The four fundamentals of reality? That'll be the elements of Air, Fire, Water and Earth, innit?

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On 5/13/2017 at 9:50 AM, silent thunder said:

my fundamental reality seems to be awareness which seems to be unmanifest, empty, limitless and undying. 

there is an innate knowingness that I am.

my beingness seems to be centered on the heat generated by my breathing form.

but really I am simply aware that I am.  This is what I am.

 

one of the only things I am certain of, is that I am.

and the I that knows that I am, is the same I that I am, there are not two, one that is and one that knows...

so I am one limitless awareness with a manifest (limited) breathing form generating mild heat.

 

 

1 hour ago, kāvēri said:

The heart part is puzzling.  If it is limitless awareness, how can it be centered on particular location, like heart?  If that is how it is perceived in current form, then is it limitless?

I was reading Ramana Maharishi's talks a while back.  He mentions that "I am" or awareness rests on the right side of the heart.  When questioned about the heart of left, he mentions that is the organ heart, and distinguishes it from the heart on right.

Upanishads also state  purusha (being) resides in heart, in the size of a thumb.  

Edited to add:  Unless, there is a separation such as jivatma, how can the limitless be described with size and location?

I think you may have read my comment as heart when it was heat. 

I am referring to the very foundational sense of two types of awareness... that awarereness of my being related by the heat generated by my manifest form.

There are two senses that I have that are unshakable... knowingness and beingness... both stem from awareness. 

I am sure that I am... this is where the knowingness generates from and is not related to any form, it is undying, unmanifest and untaintable in any manner.

and my awareness of beingness which stems from the heat generated by my manifest form... 

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12 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

 

 

I think you may have read my comment as heart when it was heat. 

I am referring to the very foundational sense of two types of awareness... that awarereness of my being related by the heat generated by my manifest form.

There are two senses that I have that are unshakable... knowingness and beingness... both stem from awareness. 

I am sure that I am... this is where the knowingness generates from and is not related to any form, it is undying, unmanifest and untaintable in any manner.

and my awareness of beingness which stems from the heat generated by my manifest form... 

Yes I did.  I should rethink about wearing those glasses :) .  (inner & outer)

Still, I am glad I asked the question.  Thanks for pointing out and explaining further in detail.

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how beautifully interwoven it all is...

Reading your heart comment triggered a cascade effect of heart field awareness.

clear, bouyant, completely unanticipated... off guard, open, clear, bouyant...

*bow*  thank you mate... gratitude!

 

 

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18 hours ago, silent thunder said:

how beautifully interwoven it all is...

Reading your heart comment triggered a cascade effect of heart field awareness.

clear, bouyant, completely unanticipated... off guard, open, clear, bouyant...

*bow*  thank you mate... gratitude!

 

 

The gratitude is mutual/shared.  It is beautiful!

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